Jaybird180
Final Approach
I have an acquaintance who owns an airplane I'm not qualified to fly. He holds a commercial (w/ instrument) rating. Can we fly dual, allowing me to log time in type and/or receive an endorsement for said aircraft?
Time in Type
- Thread starter Jaybird180
- Start date
Not qualified to fly by whom? More information required, your ratings and endorsements and the airplane type. If it is complex/HP you cannot log time in it without those endorsements unless the guy is a CFI (commercial doesn't cut it). If you are legal by FAA standards and need time for the insurance, you can log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls.
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
If you are otherwise rated, but not endorsed, to fly that airplane, you can log PIC as long as someone is along that can act as legal PIC. As far as dual goes, it would have to be with a CFI. Your buddy with the Commercial would not be able to do an endorsement unless he was also a CFI.
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
Beg to differ. He does not need endorsements to log PIC as long as someone is along that can be legal PIC.
Not exactly sure what you mean by "FAA standards".
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
What about the airplane makes you not qualified to fly it? Is it a FAR (complex, HP, tailwheel, twin...etc) or is it an insurance requirement that you don't meet?
If it is an insurance thing, not necessarily a prob, but he must understand that if you prang the plane, he is fully repsonsible and you both would have to be on the same page when the investigators start asking questions....IOW you were NOT flying the plane.
If it is an airplane that you are not qualified to act as PIC (because you don't have the required rating or endorsement) and he isn't a CFI, then about all you can do is get some experience that will help you when you do go for that endorsement, but with few exceptions, you won't be able to log the time. There may be some situations where you can act as safety pilot while he does approaches, but you would only be able to log that time as SIC as far as I know.
If it is an insurance thing, not necessarily a prob, but he must understand that if you prang the plane, he is fully repsonsible and you both would have to be on the same page when the investigators start asking questions....IOW you were NOT flying the plane.
If it is an airplane that you are not qualified to act as PIC (because you don't have the required rating or endorsement) and he isn't a CFI, then about all you can do is get some experience that will help you when you do go for that endorsement, but with few exceptions, you won't be able to log the time. There may be some situations where you can act as safety pilot while he does approaches, but you would only be able to log that time as SIC as far as I know.
Huh, good to know....
Rated and endorsed for the airplane, ie, your ticket includes everything the airplane is as for tailwheel, HP, Complex....
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
For a low-time, low-life pond-scum like you, he's gotta be nuts to let you even sit in a nice airplane, let alone touch any of the flight controls. Everybody knows that 100-hour pilots are just an accident in search of a scene. What is he thinking? 
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
That is true, however, you end up in the insurance issue that I mentioned above. It is doable, but requires agreement/understanding between both parties before engine start!
Jaybird180
Final Approach
For a low-time, low-life pond-scum like you, he's gotta be nuts to let you even sit in a nice airplane, let alone touch any of the flight controls. Everybody knows that 100-hour pilots are just an accident in search of a scene. What is he thinking?
Good one! You guys have the memory of an elephant.
For clarification, the subject airplane requires a complex endorsement, which I do not have.
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
You are good to go, as long as your commercial rated owner friend agrees to be the legal PIC.
And yeah, insurance issues, yada yada yada.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Okay, so you can fly with him and log the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls, but you best be on the same page as to the insurance issue - and I'd recommend you sit on the right side when you do fly it. Insurance will most likely not cover you if you screw the pooch.
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
Yeah. Well, you don't need all that to log PIC under the sole manipulator clause. You just have to understand that you cannot be the legal PIC. Someone has to be at the other control position that does meet those requirements.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 29,907
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
For a low-time, low-life pond-scum like you, he's gotta be nuts to let you even sit in a nice airplane, let alone touch any of the flight controls. Everybody knows that 100-hour pilots are just an accident in search of a scene. What is he thinking?
Exactly. We all know that real pilots are born with 17,000 hours in their logbook and type ratings in everything from a DC-3 to a G-V, and never had a point at which they had 100 hours. Ever.
Edit to give useful response: Greg is correct. You can log the PIC time if the pilot lets you be PIC, but he can't give you an endorsement unless he's a CFI.
Last edited:
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
You might also want to note the "real" PIC's name in the Remarks section of your log entry for that flight just so's you can remember what really happened if the FAA ever asks about the flight, e.g., how you were logging PIC in a plane in which you weren't legal to be the PIC, or if something bad happens (like a TFR/SFRA/FRZ violation). It's not required, but I think it's a good idea. And remember to put the "real" PIC's name, not yours, on the SFRA/FRZ flight plan (if required -- I know Jaybird's based in that area).
Insurance company doesn't care which seat who is in as long as it wasn't a lack of controls (like brakes, or nosewheel steering) was causal in the accident, and even still they would pay.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Jay,
Once you've got some experience flying the airplane, if you need some help with the Complex endorsement, give me a call in early August. For someone who's been mentored by an experienced pilot, I'm comfortable giving the complex endorsement with an hour or so of ground and an hour of dual instruction/evaluation.
The stuff is NOT hard.
Once you've got some experience flying the airplane, if you need some help with the Complex endorsement, give me a call in early August. For someone who's been mentored by an experienced pilot, I'm comfortable giving the complex endorsement with an hour or so of ground and an hour of dual instruction/evaluation.
The stuff is NOT hard.
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,257
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
I and Jay are moving along similar trajectories simultaneously (e.g. I'm scheduled to log some time in Mooney at FTG next Monday), but I decided against searching for a shortcut and budgeted a time with CFI. I only need 10 hours before I can rent, and I have 3.5 already that I had to put down to obtain my Complex endorsement, so... It's only $1235.
Last edited:
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Not so. I've seen policies requiring the PIC to be in the left seat unless a CFI giving training to an insured pilot. I believe there are a couple of aircraft whose AFM's say the same.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Yep. our school's policy specifically states that all flights shall be flown from the left seat except in cases specifically authorized in writing by the Chief Instructor (which is given to CFI candidates when we send them "solo" for practice). And of course all our CFIs have it too.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2006
- Messages
- 5,128
- Location
- Lincoln, Nebraska
- Display Name
Display name:
Jason W (FlyNE)
To more clearly state this, he will NOT "be PIC", but will be the sole manipulator of the controls while the owner is acting as the PIC of the flight. He is able to log PIC in the airplane for whatever time that he is the sole manipulator of said controls.
Once he were rated AND endorsed it would open up further PIC opportunities for him (safety pilot, etc.).
Your schools policy, is it in their insurance policy? I haven't seen it stipulated and it was never something an insurance company indoc ever pointed out to be cognizant about.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Yes it is.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Someone recently mentioned on another thread that their actual insurance policy had a specification. I think it was Gismo, but not positive.
Erice
Pre-takeoff checklist
Well, I thought I understood this. But I am seeing something in a new light here.
I thought the Acting vs Logging PIC debate was only for when the "Actor" was under the hood, and the "Logger" was a safety pilot. I also understand that a non-complex-endorsed Private pilot receiving dual can still act as PIC before having the complex endorsement, because he is rated PP-SEL (or MEL if it is a twin). http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23674 shows that discussion.
The OP was asking about a non-complex pilot, flying with a non-CFI complex pilot. According to EdFred's nifty Can I Log It as PIC chart, I guess the non-complex pilot could log it.
So, as long as there is a pilot onboard that can Act as PIC (i.e., has the 61.31 complex endorsement, but is not necessarily a CFI), the non-complex private pilot can Log PIC? Do I have it right?
In this situation, can they BOTH earn PIC time concurrently?
I thought the Acting vs Logging PIC debate was only for when the "Actor" was under the hood, and the "Logger" was a safety pilot. I also understand that a non-complex-endorsed Private pilot receiving dual can still act as PIC before having the complex endorsement, because he is rated PP-SEL (or MEL if it is a twin). http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23674 shows that discussion.
The OP was asking about a non-complex pilot, flying with a non-CFI complex pilot. According to EdFred's nifty Can I Log It as PIC chart, I guess the non-complex pilot could log it.
So, as long as there is a pilot onboard that can Act as PIC (i.e., has the 61.31 complex endorsement, but is not necessarily a CFI), the non-complex private pilot can Log PIC? Do I have it right?
In this situation, can they BOTH earn PIC time concurrently?
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
See above comments...
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
Nope.
That is wrong. He can log PIC as Sole Manipulator, but without the endorsement, he cannot ACT as PIC.
That is true
That is true.
No. Only the sole manipulator can. The non flying legal PIC can't log anything. He doesn't fit into any of the categories in 61.51.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
Just want to reiterate this last statement...
If two pilots are onboard a plane, and they are both equally qualified and capable of acting PIC, only the sole manipulator may log the time. Simply being the ACTING PIC in this case (with neither pilot under a hood, just two friends VFR flying ONLY), does not let you log anything.
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
True all.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
No, they cannot both earn PIC time.
Erice
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yeah. I had that one part backwards. Thanks for clearing it up.
The part about only one pilot acting as PIC makes sense, too.
So maybe EdFred's chart needs one more box--Are you a CFI giving dual? Or is a CFI giving dual considered a safety pilot?
The part about only one pilot acting as PIC makes sense, too.
So maybe EdFred's chart needs one more box--Are you a CFI giving dual? Or is a CFI giving dual considered a safety pilot?
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,096
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
A CFI giving dual can log PIC.
The reference is 61.51(e)(3)
Ed has a disclaimer about additional logging issues of ATP, CFI and the like.
Last edited:
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
That's generally true as long as only one pilot is required. However, if I'm giving training to an equally qualified CFI who is flying the plane, I can log PIC time whether I'm acting as PIC or not. But that's a CFI exception. There's also an ATP exception for operations where the PIC must hold an ATP. But...
...is correct.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
A CFI giving training is also a safety pilot when the trainee is hooded, but the two roles aren't mutually exclusive, and it doesn't affect whether the CFI can log PIC time -- which s/he can do any time s/he is giving training in flight, whether s/he is acting as PIC or not.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Our club's insurance policy requires us to fly from the left seat unless we've gotten a right-seat checkout (or we're a CFI). And yes, in this case it really is the insurance policy.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I just checked. Our policy also states this as some odd-ball lawyer-ese wording, but translated it basically means you'd best be sitting in the seat that has the best view/access to the primary flight instruments.
Sac Arrow
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 20,360
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- Display Name
Display name:
Snorting his way across the USA
So, scenario: Your non-complex endorsed friend is solely manipulating the controls and earning PIC time for which you cannot log. He prangs the airplane. You are still the PIC for incident reporting and insurance purposes even though you cannot log the time for it.
(Yes of course I'm grabbing the controls if he's about to crash, the question is academic.)
(Yes of course I'm grabbing the controls if he's about to crash, the question is academic.)
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Tim,
Sometimes, I read threads straight from email instead of logging onto the forum. I don't know how I missed this one!
I'm sending you a text (it's early August already).
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly correct.