Time building idea?

Time building?

  • Yes, this is a great idea!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Yes, this a good idea, but the prices are too high

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No, there is no need for this

    Votes: 7 100.0%
  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .
A

aviatomar

Pre-Flight
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Apr 2, 2017
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Display name:
aviatormar
Hi everyone,
I was looking over my old log books this weekend and realized how much time and money I really spent building time many years ago and think there's got to be a better way. Since it's been a while for me, I'd like some input from all of you: is there a need to build time faster and cheaper? I'm considering buying a few airplanes and leasing them out in 10-50 hour blocks over a week or two. I'll pair you up with someone else who also needs the hours (I assume you can still log "safety pilot time". Again this is just an idea I'm tossing around; if someone can advise me if this is still legal, that would be awesome!), provide a few route options, and offer discounts at hotels along the way. I'm figuring it would be a basic older model 172 or PA-28 costing you between $65-85/hour dry total, which you'd be able to split with your partner. Is this of interest to anyone?

PM for details or please fire away with questions! Thanks, everyone!
 
The MX is a main factor. You let a guy rent this plane he takes it to middle of nowhere Montana. He breaks down. Now you have to find a mechanic out there that might see some real opportunity to get your money. You have 2 pilots that are ****ed off that the plane will be down for a few days. They fly home commercial, fight you for a refund and cost of airfare. You now have to get someone or yourself out to Montana and fly the plane home. This is a very realistic scenario that can bite you. That is why many flight schools won't let anyone take a plane too far from home.
 
People already do this... at the local airport, renting from the same club they learned to fly with. I don't see any specific benefit to your offer over theirs.

The two pilots walk into the rental place and look for an opening on the calendar and book the airplane and go. For roughly the same price.

I don't see anything "faster and cheaper". Care to explain?
 
denverpilot said:
don't see any specific benefit to your offer over theirs...The two pilots walk into the rental place and look for an opening on the calendar and book the airplane and go. For roughly the same price.
Click to expand...

I think one of the main selling points, at least in theory, would be exclusive use of the airplane for several weeks. Most flight schools have high utilization of the airplanes because they can't afford not to. Meanwhile, flying clubs often require you to purchase a stake and most timebuilders would not want that kind of commitment.
 
dmspilot said:
I think one of the main selling points, at least in theory, would be exclusive use of the airplane for several weeks. Most flight schools have high utilization of the airplanes because they can't afford not to. Meanwhile, flying clubs often require you to purchase a stake and most timebuilders would not want that kind of commitment.
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Several weeks? When were you planning to change oil on these aircraft? At remote locations? Will your particular setup require 100 hour inspections? Any ADs to comply with on the aircraft you've chosen?

If you think you'll be sending people far away on multiple week journeys, I'm curious how you'll work the logistics of required maintenance out for them.

If you're doing 25 hour oil changes, two pilots can blow through that in three full days of flying. 50, six days. And 100 hour inspections or 100 hour ADs or similar, twelve days, or essentially every two weeks.

That doesn't include maintenance caused by failures found either in the inspections or by things happening to the aircraft. What's your plan for a blown tire on landing when the daring duo is 1000 miles away? Most clubs or FBOs will have someone fly their own mechanic out to fix it unless they trust the mechanic on the field, and that's a lower and lower probability the further away from home the aircraft goes.

I'm not OPPOSED to your idea, but I still don't see where it's "cheaper and faster" yet. I don't think you've thought through the continuous maintenance and trustworthy places needed to do maintenance and keep a dispatch rate up with airplanes wandering off thousands of miles away. You usually want them within "self-rescue distance" the majority of the time, unless you have mechanic friends lined up along a known route.

Most of us who own aircraft know if we use them for long distance travel, a very real scenario is to need to whip out the credit card for two things... mechanical work far from home with a mechanic we've never met (and perhaps consultative phone calls with a mechanic we trust, depending on OUR mechanical aptitude and eyeballs on-site), and full fare commerical airline tickets home and then discounted tickets bought on a more normal timeframe to go back to get the airplane later.

Or... alternatively... a long layover somewhere waiting in a hotel room.

We try to schedule repetitive maintenance when the aircraft is going to be home, or do it early (higher cost per hour) before long trips are planned.
 
denverpilot said:
Several weeks? When were you planning to change oil on these aircraft? At remote locations? Will your particular setup require 100 hour inspections? Any ADs to comply with on the aircraft you've chosen?

If you think you'll be sending people far away on multiple week journeys, I'm curious how you'll work the logistics of required maintenance out for them.

If you're doing 25 hour oil changes, two pilots can blow through that in three full days of flying. 50, six days. And 100 hour inspections or 100 hour ADs or similar, twelve days, or essentially every two weeks.

That doesn't include maintenance caused by failures found either in the inspections or by things happening to the aircraft. What's your plan for a blown tire on landing when the daring duo is 1000 miles away? Most clubs or FBOs will have someone fly their own mechanic out to fix it unless they trust the mechanic on the field, and that's a lower and lower probability the further away from home the aircraft goes.

I'm not OPPOSED to your idea, but I still don't see where it's "cheaper and faster" yet. I don't think you've thought through the continuous maintenance and trustworthy places needed to do maintenance and keep a dispatch rate up with airplanes wandering off thousands of miles away. You usually want them within "self-rescue distance" the majority of the time, unless you have mechanic friends lined up along a known route.

Most of us who own aircraft know if we use them for long distance travel, a very real scenario is to need to whip out the credit card for two things... mechanical work far from home with a mechanic we've never met (and perhaps consultative phone calls with a mechanic we trust, depending on OUR mechanical aptitude and eyeballs on-site), and full fare commerical airline tickets home and then discounted tickets bought on a more normal timeframe to go back to get the airplane later.

Or... alternatively... a long layover somewhere waiting in a hotel room.

We try to schedule repetitive maintenance when the aircraft is going to be home, or do it early (higher cost per hour) before long trips are planned.
Click to expand...

Sigh. I'm not OP. Don't ask me.
 
Hi everyone, so this is why I really love pilots and the internet. I'm an airline guy who literally hasn't thought of any of these issues with small airplanes in years. I'm used to pulling into a gate and if something is wrong, calling Mx and it's out of my hands. All these issues are valid and sound and I didn't consider most if not all the concerns you all have brought up. Logically it sounds like a nightmare that would end up failing rather quickly. I want to thank everyone for the responses!
 
MAKG1 said:
$125/hour wet for a 172 isn't a bargain.

What do you do when the airplane breaks 1000 miles away?
Click to expand...


My idea was to try to pre-program a route of flight, with fuel stops, hotels and Mx available, but it sounds like it might be a logistical nightmare! Thanks for pointing this out!

As far as the price, based from the ATL market I figured it was a steal, based on some of the prices I've seen advertised online. Again I haven't been in the small airplane market for years and I knew the struggle it was to save enough to hit the hours needed. Based on this, I figured I could help new pilots and make a small profit off it as well, but I'm gathering it looks like not to the case!
 
denverpilot said:
Several weeks? When were you planning to change oil on these aircraft? At remote locations? Will your particular setup require 100 hour inspections? Any ADs to comply with on the aircraft you've chosen?

If you think you'll be sending people far away on multiple week journeys, I'm curious how you'll work the logistics of required maintenance out for them.

If you're doing 25 hour oil changes, two pilots can blow through that in three full days of flying. 50, six days. And 100 hour inspections or 100 hour ADs or similar, twelve days, or essentially every two weeks.

That doesn't include maintenance caused by failures found either in the inspections or by things happening to the aircraft. What's your plan for a blown tire on landing when the daring duo is 1000 miles away? Most clubs or FBOs will have someone fly their own mechanic out to fix it unless they trust the mechanic on the field, and that's a lower and lower probability the further away from home the aircraft goes.

I'm not OPPOSED to your idea, but I still don't see where it's "cheaper and faster" yet. I don't think you've thought through the continuous maintenance and trustworthy places needed to do maintenance and keep a dispatch rate up with airplanes wandering off thousands of miles away. You usually want them within "self-rescue distance" the majority of the time, unless you have mechanic friends lined up along a known route.

Most of us who own aircraft know if we use them for long distance travel, a very real scenario is to need to whip out the credit card for two things... mechanical work far from home with a mechanic we've never met (and perhaps consultative phone calls with a mechanic we trust, depending on OUR mechanical aptitude and eyeballs on-site), and full fare commerical airline tickets home and then discounted tickets bought on a more normal timeframe to go back to get the airplane later.

Or... alternatively... a long layover somewhere waiting in a hotel room.

We try to schedule repetitive maintenance when the aircraft is going to be home, or do it early (higher cost per hour) before long trips are planned.
Click to expand...


Hi,
Thank you for posting a well thought out response and after reading this I can see the pitfalls. I'm a regional airline captain and literally, I kinda figured that no matter where you showed up there would Mx available (pardon my ignorance- honestly I haven't flown or dealt with small airplanes since about 2005 when I went to the regionals). However, all these points are totally valid. I was coming from the position to see if this was even an idea that would help out a need and if I could turn out any sort of profit that would be awesome. I remember from back in the day the struggle that existed to find a reasonable priced airplanes to build time and I figured with this massive hiring shortage (I'm in the hiring and training department-trust me we can't find good people anymore it's becoming a problem) I could help solve a problem. But, due to the pitfalls you mentioned, it seems like it might be more then what I"m willing to bite off. I'm blessed to have a good job and a few side business and I thought this could be a fun way to combind my skills. So thanks everyone, I guess I'll shelve this idea for now.

However, if anyone has any ideas about leaseback deals I would be open to that as well!

Thanks!
Matt
 
MAKG1 said:
$125/hour wet for a 172 isn't a bargain.
Click to expand...

I love when people speak in absolutes...125/hr wet IS a bargain, or at least a lower price then I'm used to in my area of the world. I can't get a 172 in my area for less than $159/hr wet.
 
aviatomar said:
My idea was to try to pre-program a route of flight, with fuel stops, hotels and Mx available, but it sounds like it might be a logistical nightmare! Thanks for pointing this out!

As far as the price, based from the ATL market I figured it was a steal, based on some of the prices I've seen advertised online. Again I haven't been in the small airplane market for years and I knew the struggle it was to save enough to hit the hours needed. Based on this, I figured I could help new pilots and make a small profit off it as well, but I'm gathering it looks like not to the case!
Click to expand...

OK, a preprogrammed route is a different idea. That deals with some of the issues.

I still think you'll have some logistical issues with MX, but you'll at least have it in the first place. It would suck for your airplane to blow a tire in Death Valley, with the nearest mechanic in Las Vegas. But you can plan the route so that isolated fields aren't on it. No idea if people will go for that, though.

I can routinely find older 172s for ~$120/hour wet. It's the gotta-have-the-latest-glass-panel shops that cost a lot more.
 
Caramon13 said:
I love when people speak in absolutes...125/hr wet IS a bargain, or at least a lower price then I'm used to in my area of the world. I can't get a 172 in my area for less than $159/hr wet.
Click to expand...

Even in ridiculously expensive areas, I've seldom seen and OLDER 172 for much more than $120/hour wet. Now, G1000 172Ss are another story, as is OpenAirplane. But, $159/hour for a basic 172N or older is the anomaly.
 
MAKG1 said:
Even in ridiculously expensive areas, I've seldom seen and OLDER 172 for much more than $120/hour wet. Now, G1000 172Ss are another story, as is OpenAirplane. But, $159/hour for a basic 172N or older is the anomaly.
Click to expand...

Lucky you :). I wish I lived in cheaper rental areas. If I want a G1000 I have to pay $184/hr for a 172 at one place. Oh and get this, Turbo Arrow->$249/hr wet, dual only.

Cheapest plane I can find anywhere 50 miles from me without joining a club or paying some sort of ongoing maintenance fee is $139/hr and it's a C162 LSA....
 
Caramon13 said:
I love when people speak in absolutes...125/hr wet IS a bargain, or at least a lower price then I'm used to in my area of the world. I can't get a 172 in my area for less than $159/hr wet.
Click to expand...
Clearwater rents one for 129
 
I do wish sometimes that a cheaper rental place would swoop into Sarasota or nearby and wipe out all these stupid high rentals. But, then I remind myself that in a few years I'll probably be buying again or looking..so I can deal with the absurdity of the rental prices for another few years. Especially when I only rent a few times a year to make sure I'm not losing my touch.
 
Caramon13 said:
Lucky you :). I wish I lived in cheaper rental areas. If I want a G1000 I have to pay $184/hr for a 172 at one place. Oh and get this, Turbo Arrow->$249/hr wet, dual only.

Cheapest plane I can find anywhere 50 miles from me without joining a club or paying some sort of ongoing maintenance fee is $139/hr and it's a C162 LSA....
Click to expand...
Just for giggles, I went poking around there.

There are a number of 172s on the line for $159 in Sarasota. They are all 172SPs. They are NOT older 172s.

There don't appear to be any older ones for rent in Sarasota, at least not in an outfit that has a website, but there are in St. Petersburg. And 172Ps there go for ... $119/hour. Not far off at all.
 
MAKG1 said:
Just for giggles, I went poking around there.

There are a number of 172s on the line for $159 in Sarasota. They are all 172SPs. They are NOT older 172s.

There don't appear to be any older ones for rent in Sarasota, at least not in an outfit that has a website, but there are in St. Petersburg. And 172Ps there go for ... $119/hour. Not far off at all.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about st pete air at KSPG, yeah I know about that one. They charge a initiation fee and an ongoing maintenance fee. Not bad, but when you have to book a plane 4 months in advance to go fly it doesn't work out.

I used to rent their arrow (159/hr wet) and archer (119/hr wet) whenever I could, but that's still a 45 minute drive, one way for me. Did a cost analysis on it and turns out it costs me the same or more to go up there and rent then it would renting from Sarasota at $159/hr...so no matter WHERE I drive I'm paying $159 / hr at a minimum lol...

What it boiled down to was availability. I "could" rent a more expensive plane here at KSRQ or I could go up and rent a cheaper plane in st. pete but since I mostly fly friends out of KSRQ the extra .4 flight time to get to/from KSPG, plus the cost of tolls, wear and tear on the car, etc, came out to same as just getting a plane from KSRQ.

TLDR: Net cost to me is still $159/hr wet no matter where I go, regardless of the plane I fly (with MAYBE one exception, that being a C162).
 
MAKG1 said:
OK, a preprogrammed route is a different idea. That deals with some of the issues.

I still think you'll have some logistical issues with MX, but you'll at least have it in the first place. It would suck for your airplane to blow a tire in Death Valley, with the nearest mechanic in Las Vegas. But you can plan the route so that isolated fields aren't on it. No idea if people will go for that, though.

I can routinely find older 172s for ~$120/hour wet. It's the gotta-have-the-latest-glass-panel shops that cost a lot more.
Click to expand...

Right I agree, I just figured there would be a decent to strong demand for something like that? I kinda figured if I offered a package that a couple of guys could tackle a week or weekend long trip with the logicists sort of taken care of I could drum up business and demand. I kinda (foggily) remember learning to fly and being let down that I couldn't take the airplane very far for a number of reasons; minimum hours per day, distance restrictions (yeah I learned how to fly at a poor excuse of a flight school) and no one having the time/wanting to take a further afield trips. I remember building all my time in the Northeast (while great) there wasn't much variety to the flying. Now in the role I am at, I see the same thing happening in logbooks; all local flights. I just think it's a shame that people don't use airplanes to go anywhere and I was trying to fill a niche. In my other world, niches tend to do well, but I guess the same old adage applied back then today; to make a dollar in aviation, look elsewhere!
 
mtuomi said:
I rent my 150 for $30/dry. Beat that.
Click to expand...

You need to park that thing in Charlotte and I will wear it out

Caramon13 said:
I love when people speak in absolutes...125/hr wet IS a bargain, or at least a lower price then I'm used to in my area of the world. I can't get a 172 in my area for less than $159/hr wet.
Click to expand...

Holy Cow!
 
Well I know your potential customer already, but more pressing question is what would you do when the plane breaks 1500 miles away on his first xc?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
MAKG1 said:
Even in ridiculously expensive areas, I've seldom seen and OLDER 172 for much more than $120/hour wet. Now, G1000 172Ss are another story, as is OpenAirplane. But, $159/hour for a basic 172N or older is the anomaly.
Click to expand...

The best I can rent in Reno is a 1980 172N (about 13,500 hours on the airframe) for $135/hr wet. There is a 5000-hour-or-so 172SP for $150/hr but good luck getting a booking on it - and they want you to buy a 10-hour block of time too.
 
My flying club rents a 172M for $45 dry and a 172RG for $65 dry. Both /G
 
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