Thunderbirds Wake

Velocity173

Velocity173

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Velocity173
Looks like the Diamond got hit by wake from the solo.

 
They got a little squirrelly around the 19 second point...damn close
 
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Racerx said:
Diamond...the formation. Not the plane sitting on the ramp. They got a little squirrelly around the 19 second point...damn close
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Ah. Could be. Was this on Sunday? I was at the Saturday show and didn’t notice this, but I was at the other end of the viewing area might not have had a good perspective.

SWMBO and I were guests at one of the corporate chalets. Great way to see an air show!! Tent, tables, great seating, catered bbq, open bar....
 
Another view. Three’s heart rate went up a few beats.

 
pishhh, that's every Tuesday 2nd go every day for me on a form approach: "stop pulsing the stick dude....stop pulsing the stick dude...slooooow your breathing, stop pulsing the-- I got the aircraft.[6-9 seconds of smooth butta' handflown bliss]... Alright brother I got ya lined up, watch your cues, wiggle your fingers, rellaaaaax... ok you ready? Sweet, you got the aircraft.....stop pulsing the stick dude *"Altitude.. Altitude" chime* stop pulsing the stick dude....." :confused::p
 
hindsight2020 said:
pishhh, that's every Tuesday 2nd go every day for me on a form approach: "stop pulsing the stick dude....stop pulsing the stick dude...slooooow your breathing, stop pulsing the-- I got the aircraft.[6-9 seconds of smooth butta' handflown bliss]... Alright brother I got ya lined up, watch your cues, wiggle your fingers, rellaaaaax... ok you ready? Sweet, you got the aircraft.....stop pulsing the stick dude *"altitude altitude" chime* stop pulsing the stick dude....." :confused::p
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Not much room for error in a T-38 form and probably not as forgiving as an F-16 either.
 
Question for you military formation guys: It looks to me that the #3 had to use right rudder to create separation because a bank at that point would have gotten up into #1, is that correct?
 
Velocity173 said:
Not much room for error in a T-38 form and probably not as forgiving as an F-16 either.
Click to expand...
And we got the fatality track record to go with it. To wit, no more form landings. They were awesome when done well.

The T-birds trade more paint than we do, but it's benign and the jets are flyable. They fly really close on purpose; we fly close, but when we fly T-bird close it's largely by accident (occupational hazard). Their profiles are way more canned and scrutinized and their quality vetting is way higher. Their sortie count is way lower, which makes us look worse. We incur way more risk (primary training, a good chunk of disheartened instructors due to non-voluntary assignment) and our population distribution is way wider (aka more left of sigma, yellow helmet types), which is why we kill more people. Horses for courses type of thing.

The airplane is also less forgiving than the viper in handling, by spades. Thence the T-7. But that is true for any Century Series relic compared to anything even as dated as a viper. Where the viper hurts you compared to the trainers is in the G-available, if you don't respect your onset and fatigue physiology, it's night night for the rest of your life. No auto-GCAS in the T-bird jets if I recall correctly , which would make sense given their low altitude profiles, and outsized lift vector placement down low compared to combat minded tails.

All in all, these guys make it look easy, but it's tedious and demanding work to make those passes look clean. They're earning their paycheck for sure.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Question for you military formation guys: It looks to me that the #3 had to use right rudder to create separation because a bank at that point would have gotten up into #1, is that correct?
Click to expand...
Largely correct. What gets missed a little is that the initial wing dip is the result of the jet wash of the high pass jet. The lurch up into #1 is actually the aircraft attempting to correct for the jetwash while maintaining formation symmetry. You can't see it readily, but he's goosing the power to keep the closure up and maintain line, after getting "settled" by the high pass jetwash. Problem is the jetwash-generated wingdip gives him some HCA (heading crossing angle) into lead's line. That's where the potential loss of nose-tail separation occurs, as the power goose becomes phase-lagged into too much closure from lead.

He/she did the right thing by slipping out with rudder, a bunt would have served a similar purpose, but these demo team guys don't have that luxury of vertical stack decon like we do in primary training at medium altitudes. It's impossible to see the actual clearance from a rear angle (parallax). It's chopping the power what actually saved the contact, not the slip.
 
For those that have never seen part of the show from cockpit video, here's some recent shot stuff. The Blues fly a bit tighter in the diamond stuff, so you would see much more movement than this.

 
So there I was… back seat of Blue Angel 7 in the number 2 spot. Looking at really banged up, speed tape repaired landing gear doors.

Me: “Uh, what’s up with the speed tape Weeds?”

“Well… we bump. It’s a thing…”

Me: “Define bump. How often do we bump? Bump hard? Blah blah blah”

“Shut up Tools, I’m busy”

Hmmm…. Later….

Me: “Uh, does this thing have a yaw damper? Is it broken? I think I’m getting seasick. Blah blah blah.”

“Can’t use the wings to fly, Boss owns them. I gotta use the rudder. Can’t see all this from the crowd. Now shut up, I’m busy.”

Me: “oooooooooohhh. Hmmm. Ok, I’m good.”


How I got there is for another thread!
 
Velocity173 said:
Not much room for error in a T-38 form and probably not as forgiving as an F-16 either.
Click to expand...
Hard to believe anything can be that scary in something with a yeet seat.

We had a company plane get turned upside-down from wake turbulence at about 3000’, courtesy of a bad vector under a 747. The pilot “completed the roll” to recover.
 
I don't get why this is an unexpected event (the turb).
Surely they have flown this part of the routine many, many times.
Solo got out of position?
 
hindsight2020 said:
pishhh, that's every Tuesday 2nd go every day for me on a form approach: "stop pulsing the stick dude....stop pulsing the stick dude...slooooow your breathing, stop pulsing the-- I got the aircraft.[6-9 seconds of smooth butta' handflown bliss]... Alright brother I got ya lined up, watch your cues, wiggle your fingers, rellaaaaax... ok you ready? Sweet, you got the aircraft.....stop pulsing the stick dude *"Altitude.. Altitude" chime* stop pulsing the stick dude....." :confused::p
Click to expand...
Dunno how you do it, Gonzo. My son jokingly says "idiots trying to kill you" but hell, that's backseat in a T-6- no comparison.
I'd bet you could fill a book with stories...
 
tobnpr said:
Dunno how you do it, Gonzo. My son jokingly says "idiots trying to kill you" but hell, that's backseat in a T-6- no comparison.
I'd bet you could fill a book with stories...
Click to expand...
Oh, I'm very much planning on it. Problem is that with my proximity to retirement, and the service's current stance on social media, has everybody pretty paranoid. Not to get too into details, but I've been the target of recurrent tone-policing at work. So far have fared relatively well in so far as haven't received actual career ending punishment yet. I do have former coworkers and service peers who did actually get NJP'd over leadership taking a dim view of their exposure, opinions, or approach to their social media use/promotion. So I walk a bit more nervously these days, ngl. That's why I'm taking a gratuitously conservative approach by withholding any attempt at formal publishing, until I have my jelly of the month club membership in the bag. The service has a big retention and recruitment problem, and the censorious landscape of present circumstances is not helping matters one bit.

As to the T-6, oh it's a grind, and it's a risk-laden affair, as that is the first exposure to formation these "kids" get. Your son is doing the lord's work. I did it for 4 years and 1000 hours/800+ sorties. Primary training is the epicenter of the screening portion of UPT (cheapest way to attrit, as opposed to an F-16 sized smoking hole in the Arizona dirt, or worse, a 7-10 crew aircraft with most of them being bystanders with no recourse). Nowadays they give Silver Wings from T-6s, so it's a big deal.

Hope he's having a blast and stay safe!
 
hindsight2020 said:
Largely correct. What gets missed a little is that the initial wing dip is the result of the jet wash of the high pass jet. The lurch up into #1 is actually the aircraft attempting to correct for the jetwash while maintaining formation symmetry. You can't see it readily, but he's goosing the power to keep the closure up and maintain line, after getting "settled" by the high pass jetwash. Problem is the jetwash-generated wingdip gives him some HCA (heading crossing angle) into lead's line. That's where the potential loss of nose-tail separation occurs, as the power goose becomes phase-lagged into too much closure from lead.

He/she did the right thing by slipping out with rudder, a bunt would have served a similar purpose, but these demo team guys don't have that luxury of vertical stack decon like we do in primary training at medium altitudes. It's impossible to see the actual clearance from a rear angle (parallax). It's chopping the power what actually saved the contact, not the slip.
Click to expand...
Whatsa bunt?
 
Well, If they were not woke before than I bet that sure waked them...
 
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