Thoughts on PLBs

Here is a clue......

Find out what the CAP does..... And DO the EXACT opposite....:rolleyes:....:D..

The rest is up to your pre-conceived dreams...
Got it. No group. No skills. Just hot air.

Mea culpa, actually. With 12,000+ posts I should have guessed.

You can continue to sputter and fume here as you like. I won't be paying attention any more.
 
Got it. No group. No skills. Just hot air.

Mea culpa, actually. With 12,000+ posts I should have guessed.

You can continue to sputter and fume here as you like. I won't be paying attention any more.

Now.... Why would I give out our secrets and success stories.... It will just drive you over the edge....

Go back to ironing your CAP uniform...:rolleyes:.....:lol:
 
What happens when you are 400 miles from home when you go down? Is your Bubba Brigade going to immediately drop everything and swarm to your last known location, learn all the local terrain and landmarks, and come get you?

I can see the argument for Spot plus PLB, but not Spot instead of PLB.

More so then my faith in CAP and boss hoss.

They also could make phone calls if needed, more importantly they would know where it was activated, and would light fires under any required arses.
 
Nate..... Where this goes off the rails is when a group of highly skilled pilots want to initiate a search and the CAP clowns throw up a TFR to keep out decent people who just want to.. and CAN help.. Out of the CAP's sand box so they can claim the find to justify their existence....

Remember, big brothers dick is bigger then the publics...:mad2::(


That "highly skilled set of pilots" have any MOUs signed with anyone who has the search authority in that location? It's not that hard to become a SAR organization and maintain legal legitimacy with those who'll be voted out of office if some "highly skilled set of pilots" gets hurt doing something they authorized.

We have twenty or thirty ground SAR teams here in CO. If someone wanted to create an air SAR team, I'm sure they could.

But no Sheriff or anyone elected is going to let just any group show up and claim legitimacy on the day of a search. Or let them operate in the same areas as the legitimate SAR organizations. Note I didn't say effective SAR organizations or anything like that, nor make any claims about skill set nor argue for any particular group.

Show up with the proper paperwork, I bet you could search all you wanted.

As far as TFRs go, they're a tool created and offered by a higher governmental power. No SAR manager in their right mind wouldn't use them to keep a cowboy/undocumented group out. I'm no fan of TFRs but they exist and it's not CAPs call to activate them. It's legally whoever requested the SAR mission. CAP can *ask* for one, but has no authority to create one. CAP will also back up the jurisdiction for requesting it for safety reasons, of course. But the correct place to complain, is to the jurisdiction that requested it.

They tossed the book at drone operators who came within feet of SAR helicopters operating here, during the floods a couple years back, and the TFR was the teeth. The drones were shooting video trying to claim they had a legitimate product to sell to government. Insanely dumb move on their part. Lost all credibility with those in charge of searches at the State level. Also got bad media coverage. Really dumb move on the drone manufacturer's part to fly in an active rescue area.

Anyway... It's (relatively) easy to get all the paperwork in order to be a SAR team. I doubt most of these groups that show up and claim (rightly or wrongly) that they have a "highly skilled set of pilots" will ever go through the trouble and have the discipline to do so.

A FEW (very few) private helicopter organizations have done so in some locations and are a considerable asset to the folks running the searches there. Usually done because they also work a written MOU deal where the State or other entity pays for their services.

How to create a group varies from
State to State. Around here a legitimate group probably needs to be a certified member of the (venerable but generally useful), Colorado Search and Rescue Board. CSARB has held significant sway with all the "right" folks through many decades and many different types and flavors of government interest in SAR activity.

I've been a member on and off of more than one CSARB sanctioned organization over the decades. Many folks are dual-hatted at the meetings if they get suckered into representing more than one group. Many groups have even gone the extra mile for interoperability and gone beyond CSARB and applied for access to infrastructure like the Statewide State-Owned and Operated digital radio system, etc.

Don't know what it's like where you live but SAR volunteerism is not a closed door with proper training documented and homework done, here.

Sure, there will be a hurdle of skepticism that a new group will have to hurdle and jump through a few hoops, but that's to be expected when talking with folks who've done it for 30, 40, some even 50 years. Going to have to pay a few dues and prove you're more serious than just showing up with a "highly skilled set of pilots".

I've watched two ground-based groups form up from nothing and get and maintain standing as voting members of that Board, so it's not that hard. Here anyway.

I suspect insurance is the reason more aviation groups haven't shown up. That's a significant "i to dot" for most government emergency managers. Pseudo-government and real government agencies can do things to self-insure that the private sector simply can't, so membership in many private SAR groups isn't cheap.

Just one example. Lots more where that one came from. But I doubt you're actually interested enough to follow through on any of this, so explaining it is probably a waste of time.

If you do start a private air-based SAR group, I'd be fascinated to follow your progress. I've always thought such a group could be interestingly effective, but would never be able to hold on to the roughly three to one ratio of pilots to ground personnel it would need at a bare minimum to handle the full job. Especially if the memberships were as expensive as I suspect they would be.

As a Comm guy I hated paying CAP dues. Especially as the responsibility level rose. Paying to go to work, real work, with lives on the line, is dumb. But normal for "volunteer" work these days. The joke in CAP is that CAP stands for "Come and Pay".

And they're subsidized. Unless you could get legitimacy fast in he private group and get on the grant money gravy train, you'd be bankrupt in a few years without dues in the range of $200/month. My rough guess from the dues for private ground ops, anyway.
 
That "highly skilled set of pilots" have any MOUs signed with anyone who has the search authority in that location? ...........................

Hmmmm..

Interesting... Now a group of qualified, safe and honest citizens need "authority" to go look for a fellow pilot.......:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:...

I will politely remind you guys of the disgusting FAILURE of the Civil Air Patrol in Utah a couple of years back... This is the prime example of why government run LEGAL S&R's are drifting away for their mission and morphing into the "my dick is bigger then yours" organization..... And they have positioned themselves with "AUTHORITY to be able to issue TFR's, and even block ground searches....:mad2::mad2:..

This was posted on POA in thread .

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55838&highlight=Fillmore+Utah

But to make it easy on your guys I will cut and paste the pertinent part that points out the massive and heart wrenching failure of the CAP.....

To this day the CAP has yet to apologize to Shay's dad on causing her intimely suffering and death....

Hi Ben!
I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.

We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly broken.

These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).

1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
8) Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.

The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!

I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!

We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you! __________________

God forbid we have another plane crash around this neck of the woods, but I can assure you a few of us "COWBOY " will launch hours before the CAP even sends out the release... And I bet we find the crash before the CAPPIES even finish ironing their uniforms and pinning their self issued medals all over their shirts...

To Nate and all the other S&R guys /gals who has given their time in the past I applaud you all.... To the young ones recently involved in the CAP and still drinking the guvmint Kool aide.... I hope you wake up and smell the truth.....

Peace and out....

Ben ( ex CAP member) Haas.
 
... I'm sure you paid a lot of money for your PLB...

Nothing against SPOT or people who choose to use them but just to set the record straight - over a six year period the SPOT is roughly twice the cost of a ResQ or FastFind. Over a 12 year period, with battery replacement the SPOT would be be about three times the cost and that's without the extra costs of tracking, just the plain vanilla service.

I know it's not a bunch of money spread over that length of time but those are the economic facts.
 
Hmmmm..

Interesting... Now a group of qualified, safe and honest citizens need "authority" to go look for a fellow pilot.......:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:...

I will politely remind you guys of the disgusting FAILURE of the Civil Air Patrol in Utah a couple of years back... This is the prime example of why government run LEGAL S&R's are drifting away for their mission and morphing into the "my dick is bigger then yours" organization..... And they have positioned themselves with "AUTHORITY to be able to issue TFR's, and even block ground searches....:mad2::mad2:..

This was posted on POA in thread .

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55838&highlight=Fillmore+Utah

But to make it easy on your guys I will cut and paste the pertinent part that points out the massive and heart wrenching failure of the CAP.....

To this day the CAP has yet to apologize to Shay's dad on causing her intimely suffering and death....

Hi Ben!
I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.

We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly broken.

These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).

1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
8) Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.

The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!

I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!

We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you! __________________

God forbid we have another plane crash around this neck of the woods, but I can assure you a few of us "COWBOY " will launch hours before the CAP even sends out the release... And I bet we find the crash before the CAPPIES even finish ironing their uniforms and pinning their self issued medals all over their shirts...

To Nate and all the other S&R guys /gals who has given their time in the past I applaud you all.... To the young ones recently involved in the CAP and still drinking the guvmint Kool aide.... I hope you wake up and smell the truth.....

Peace and out....

Ben ( ex CAP member) Haas.

Wow....

And this is why you're always better handling things yourself or within your own group of friends and family.

Most all the pilots I know are far more qualified aviators than anyone I met at CAP during my brief time there.

Knowing what I know, I'd rather risk dealing with a TFR bust vs having a loved one die due to some government types incompetence.


sureyoucantrustthegovernmentjustaskanindian.jpg
 
Wow....

And this is why you're always better handling things yourself or within your own group of friends and family.

Most all the pilots I know are far more qualified aviators than anyone I met at CAP during my brief time there.

Knowing what I know, I'd rather risk dealing with a TFR bust vs having a loved one die due to some government types incompetence.

Painful reading. If anyone still needs confirmation that our government is broken, look no further. :(
 
I can think of 2 cases over the last 10 years that the flight originated from my home airport for local flights less than 50 miles and the plane was never recovered. Maybe if they had PLB's it might have made a difference. CAP and local fliers searched the area for weeks. No ELT transmission from either flight that was lost.
 
It's like the myth of the Bermuda Triangle. The fact is that many times more aircraft have been lost without a trace having ever been found over the continental United States. Whether PLB. SPOT or ELT I'd say any of them are better than nothing. The thing about an airplane, even a slow one, is that it can very quickly take you to a spot where there ain't nothin' else around but you.
 
There has been a lot of mention of Spot here. I just wanted to point out that the Globalstar network (that Spot uses) has nowhere near the coverage the Iridium network (InReach) uses. So if you're looking to buy a satellite communicator as insurance in case of SAR, spend the few extra bucks and get the InReach. As a bonus you'll also have two way communication, which in some scenarios could be invaluable.
 
There has been a lot of mention of Spot here. I just wanted to point out that the Globalstar network (that Spot uses) has nowhere near the coverage the Iridium network (InReach) uses. So if you're looking to buy a satellite communicator as insurance in case of SAR, spend the few extra bucks and get the InReach. As a bonus you'll also have two way communication, which in some scenarios could be invaluable.


spot_coverage_feb6_2015.jpg


ORANGE 96% OR BETTER PROBABILITY OF SUCCESSFULLY SENDING A SINGLE MESSAGE WITHIN 20 MINUTES.

YELLOW REDUCED COVERAGE AVAILABLE WITHIN A 20 MINUTE PERIOD.
 
orange 96% or better probability of successfully sending a single message within 20 minutes.

yellow reduced coverage available within a 20 minute period.

Yup, no one would argue that spot is useless.

DeLorme doesn't have a coverage map because "inReach operates on the Iridium satellite network — the only network that spans the entire globe, offering 100% coverage anywhere on earth. It’s like navigating by the stars, except the stars are awesomely powerful robots that float in space and enable two-way communication with anyone, anywhere, anytime."

Which is better coverage than waiting 20 minutes to have a 96% chance of your message getting out.
 
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Fortunately, most of us operate easily within the Orange. Over 7 years I've used my spot or tracked friends from Cabo to Pt Barrow and Seattle to Florida. I've found it to be very reliable through actual use. 3,300 rescues show "the button" works, and who knows how many saves there have been from messages and tracking.
 
I know it's not a bunch of money spread over that length of time but those are the economic facts.

True that. But you get a tool you can USE a lot, and have something that can possibly save you if you can't hit the button. The new spot service plans include tracking. The optional $100K private rescue insurance is only $18.
It's worth noting that it seems most people are just replacing their PLBs every 5 years, as replacement batteries are almost non-existent or require an expensive trip back to the factory. With the lowering prices of PLB's, many of my friends felt it was just better to get a new generation unit, with the advances in technology.
I don't really consider the cost of replacing my spot batteries, as it's not even a gallon of fuel.
The new spot "trace" may be a lower cost alternative for some people.
 
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Is your Bubba Brigade going to immediately drop everything and swarm to your last known location, learn all the local terrain and landmarks, and come get you?

I would if a friend went missing in an airplane and I know I have friends that would do the same.

I would very much prefer to have Ben or others on this board looking for me if I went missing then I would anyone in our local CAP.
 
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I ran a quick query on the inreach data I have from some volunteer work I do with the delorme inReach SE mounted in aircraft. From 11,000 reporting points and messages.

70% were received within 1 minute.
85% within 2 minutes.
91% within 5 minutes.
96% within 10 minutes.
98% within 20 minutes.

I expect these would be a fair bit better if operated by a person on the ground with a good sky view.
 
spot_coverage_feb6_2015.jpg


ORANGE 96% OR BETTER PROBABILITY OF SUCCESSFULLY SENDING A SINGLE MESSAGE WITHIN 20 MINUTES.

YELLOW REDUCED COVERAGE AVAILABLE WITHIN A 20 MINUTE PERIOD.

So, no coverage in anartica. That's a deal breaker. :redface:
 
Fortunately, most of us operate easily within the Orange. Over 7 years I've used my spot or tracked friends from Cabo to Pt Barrow and Seattle to Florida. I've found it to be very reliable through actual use. 3,300 rescues show "the button" works, and who knows how many saves there have been from messages and tracking.

One of the interesting things about spot is (according to their own materials) the unit caches points and resends them in order to assure that everything eventually goes through. So it's actually kind of hard to know if the thing got through 'reliably', as you wrote, or 'eventually' because the unit is a one way deal and doesn't know itself if the packet was received. All you know from looking at the track maps is that things got through sometime between when you flew it and when you looked at the map. This can have practical consequences. See this user report as an example: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/spot-gen-3-comments-14090#p187183
 
So, no coverage in anartica. That's a deal breaker. :redface:

What I thought was interesting about that map is that Alaska users in the north of the state have reported that Spot was basically useless. I wonder if Globalstar has some more birds flying in orbits that fix that these days or if the map is a bit optimistic. Anyone here fly up in that neck of the woods with a Spot?
 
Tracked two CTs up to Barrow last summer. Some delay on some points but generally good. It was close enough to realtime I was able to catch them on some of the FAA weather cams.
 
FWIW... Lockheed Martin Flight Service has just partnered with SPOT, providing integrated tracking of VFR Flights. Any variations from submitted flight information, and an alarm is triggered and sent to SAR people.
Link to press release More info

Through mid-Sept 2015, SPOT and Trace units are 50% off...
 
About time, they've been doing it with DeLorme for almost a year now.
Now if they'd just let me open/close a VFR flight plan via the messenger(DeLorme, where I have 2-way communications)
 
I'm planning to buy a PLB and wanted to get input from those who have one or who are also researching a pending purchase.
I've narrowed the search to three options: ResQLimk 2881, ResQLink 2880, and FastFind 220. Here's a table of what I find to be differences:

Name size weight Floats cost
ResQ 2880 S 4.6 oz w/case 190
ResQ 2881 L 5.4 oz yes 200
FF 220 M 5.4 oz w/case 210 flashing light

The sizes are relative to eachother
So, I'm leaning to the FF 220 since it has a flashing light to use when the searchers are close. It also has a case which cuts down on the wear and tear even though it doesn't float without it. The ResQ costs are after the $50 rebate.

Does anyone use any of these and have a review or use anything else they would like to suggest?

They are all good, pick the one with the size & features you want.
 
What I thought was interesting about that map is that Alaska users in the north of the state have reported that Spot was basically useless. I wonder if Globalstar has some more birds flying in orbits that fix that these days or if the map is a bit optimistic. Anyone here fly up in that neck of the woods with a Spot?

SPOTs basically suck up here. What makes it worse is that some work and others don't and the majority fall in between. Quality control of the hardware is pizz poor. I had horrible luck with one and ended up tossing it in the trash after multiple discussions with tech support. In almost 10 years of Spidertracks pinging at 2 minute intervals I've never missed a single ping. Iridium clearly has an advantage over Globalstar up here. it shows in sat phones and trackers. Guys up here tend to use Spidertracks or InReach. SPOT was popular early because it's cheap but the less than reliable performance hasn't been favorable. The Alaska FSS facilities have allowed linking these trackers to master Flight Plans for a few years. My Spider info is also linked to my 406 ELT info page so RCC can see it if my ELT goes off. My Spider provides comprehensive info to users that I select so I don't file flight plans any more. With the Spider hard wired to the plane I don't even have to think about it. Take off and landing alerts, real time tracking via smart phone, etc are my wife's preference.
 
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I probably will be getting a SPOT.

Lots of my friends have them, ranging from hikers, to backcountry pilots, kayack folks, etc, all of them love the things.

Spots are good for keeping family and friends informed, just make sure you tell them that if it drops out, that does not mean you're dead. Global Star has issues.

You still should have a 406 device, since that is the only sure fire way to activate the COPAS/SARSAT system, the only SAR system left in the world, and it is global and your 406 will be visible from pole to pole and everywhere in between unless you crash land into a cave, and even then there's a chance depending on the angles. When the system is activated, one person is assigned to handle your situation from beginning to end, only they turn it off. They may hand off the physical duties, but the responsibility and ability to cancel is their's and their's alone, so you never get 'lost in the system'.
 
I'm planning to buy a PLB and wanted to get input from those who have one or who are also researching a pending purchase.
I've narrowed the search to three options: ResQLimk 2881, ResQLink 2880, and FastFind 220. Here's a table of what I find to be differences:

Name size weight Floats cost
ResQ 2880 S 4.6 oz w/case 190
ResQ 2881 L 5.4 oz yes 200
FF 220 M 5.4 oz w/case 210 flashing light

The sizes are relative to eachother
So, I'm leaning to the FF 220 since it has a flashing light to use when the searchers are close. It also has a case which cuts down on the wear and tear even though it doesn't float without it. The ResQ costs are after the $50 rebate.

Does anyone use any of these and have a review or use anything else they would like to suggest?

After looking at SPOT, inreach, and traditional PLB's I ended up with the ResQlink + 406 with GPS.

FWIW, Here how I came to the conclusion....
I started out getting ready to purchase a SPOT but started putting together a pro and con list then started thinking about my missions. Some of the deciding factors (reality) were:

-Where I travel and land is not considered back country and its rare I cannot text my wife that Im ok after landing

-Most of the time traveling I am on an IFR flight plan (even in vfr) so my wife knows how to use flight aware if she wants to see my status while I am on a long cross country

-I also wanted a PLB for off shore sailing that I clip to my vest so I wanted a floating continuous 406 signal if i am bobbing somewhere with current (plus the strobe is nice for night)

-I fly over the great lakes frequently - so the same reasons as my sailing requirement apply.

-I also use this for winter camping, hiking, snowmobiling ect....But am usually with the wife on these adventures so she doesn't need location updates ( plus she is always telling me where to go, Im never lost anyway) so its only needed for an actual emergency.

So bottom line is all I "really" needed was a reliable emergency device with GPS and 406. Plus I really did not want another a monthy subscription for a service thats nice but I really wont use on 99% my missions, so the ResQlink+ was a good fit for me at this point.
 
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FWIW, for those thinking SPOT is only a toy... SPOT has 3500+ rescues, mostly in the US and Canada (1000+ in Canada). According to COSPAS/SARSAT they had 240 "people" rescues (2014) in the US (110 incidents: 31 boat/72 ground/7 aircraft). They had similar numbers going back to 2008. In the same 8 years SPOT averaged about 450 per year (mostly US & Canada). I'm not sure whether the SPOT numbers are for people or incidents, but either way the numbers are impressive. As the GEOS literature says, they contact the same people in an emergency that COSPAS/SARSAT contact. The actual rescue is usually done by CAP, sheriffs, the Guard, or local search-n-rescue.
SPOT's optional ($17.95) gives you $100K of rescue insurance to cover the cost of additional rescue costs, including air charter and private rescue teams.
 
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FWIW... Lockheed Martin Flight Service has just partnered with SPOT, providing integrated tracking of VFR Flights. Any variations from submitted flight information, and an alarm is triggered and sent to SAR people.
Link to press release More info

Through mid-Sept 2015, SPOT and Trace units are 50% off...

For what the service costs, they should give away the devices for free. No way is there $150 worth of electronics in one of those.
 
With the DeLorme units, when you trigger the SOS and let's say you pass out and don't text, is your position fixed on a board somewhere and someone is pinpointing you and sending help?

I like the idea of two-way communications. That's certainly worth the dough and peace of mind to me. You would know if you need to hunker down or start walking. Rescue can't always happen if the weather turns terrible, or other factors I can't imagine put you in a hard to reach spot.

Do you Delorme owners get the navigation upgrade on the DeLorme's or are the base model plenty?
 
If the weather turns terrible, you would walk into it?

Even a burned out airplane is some shelter, and walking away makes rescue impossible. Even if you have escaped injury, which isn't all that likely in a crash, walking out is only called for if you know rescue is never coming.
 
If the weather turns terrible, you would walk into it?

Even a burned out airplane is some shelter, and walking away makes rescue impossible. Even if you have escaped injury, which isn't all that likely in a crash, walking out is only called for if you know rescue is never coming.



Nope.

But if we can walk I wouldn't hang around if I crashed into Carlos Cartel's pot farm either... or we ditched (planes sunk) .. or wild rednecks with banjo's are chasing us... :skeptical:
 
I think they're about the same and a good investment until the FAA starts requiring 406 ELTs in our planes. Until then, anything is better than nothing (nothing meaning a 121.5 ELT that hasn't been monitored by Sarsat in years).
 
Downside to all PLBs + SPOT and In-Reach is that you have to be functional to employ these devices. The only way to reasonably assure that they will even work is to deploy the device yourself before the impact.
 
With the DeLorme units, when you trigger the SOS and let's say you pass out and don't text, is your position fixed on a board somewhere and someone is pinpointing you and sending help?

Do you Delorme owners get the navigation upgrade on the DeLorme's or are the base model plenty?

Yes, the unit is still sending GPS coordinates.

I don't have the navigation upgrade. Haven't missed it.
 
Nope.

But if we can walk I wouldn't hang around if I crashed into Carlos Cartel's pot farm either... or we ditched (planes sunk) .. or wild rednecks with banjo's are chasing us... :skeptical:

Just remember, spotting a person from 1000 AGL is not possible. Spotting plane wreckage is merely difficult.
 
Downside to all PLBs + SPOT and In-Reach is that you have to be functional to employ these devices. The only way to reasonably assure that they will even work is to deploy the device yourself before the impact.

100% true for PLB.

Only partially true for spot and InReach. Those devices are designed to be turned on at the start of flight and left on for the duration. So you don't have to find them and turn them on while you're fighting for control of the plane (like you would with a PLB).

If you want to activate the SOS feature, yeah you have to do that manually. But even if you don't activate it, once you are late in arriving someone will be able to pinpoint your last location and, likely, your current one.

406 ELT is better in some circumstances though.
 
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FWIW... there is a 7-day special for a FREE TRACE. Trace is like SPOT, but it's mostly about tracking. It automatically senses movement and turns tracking on in 2.5 minute, 5, 10 or greater increments.. It can also send messages when it senses a trip has begun. Long battery life and plane power options. I don't think there is a 911 button, but LockheedMartin will track you and initiate rescue if there's a problem.
 
After reading the comments, and doing a bit of research, I'm going with an inReach by DeLorme.

Why:
1. I like the option to perform 2 way communications. I am planning a flight to Alaska from KFCM (Minneapolis area) in July of 2016, and the ability to communicate home, ahead, or otherwise seems very useful. Especially for ETA's at destinations along the way, and coordinating with the advance team of faster aircraft.

2. Integration with FSS - I need to look a little more into how they deal with false alerts, but with months of operation, I assume they've worked out a number of those wrinkles.

3. GPS Navigation - Not for flight, but for on the ground. If I do put down off field, and need to hike out (say I'm relatively close to a town or out station), I have used DeLorme's mapping products before and find the detail very useful.

4. Bluetooth connectivity. - Great for use with my phone or iPad for sending/receiving messages. Also, might work as a backup GPS receiver for my aviation apps. If they follow the broadcast and encoding standards that most do, it may work. I'll report back if it does.

Risks:
Manual SOS: True, but the plane I will be in is only 121 equipped. (Club plane) Also, I believe the missed ETA would trigger a search, which the breadcrumb trail would be very useful for.

The device stops sending after I go off-airport: Yeah, bad deal! I'll get into power in a little bit. It would seem like a good idea to pack a full survival pack anyway. I'm planning to include what I would have brought with me on my backpack trip in Montana. First aid, strobe, shelter, water purifier, etc. I should have what I need to survive while a search is taking place in the event that it is a walk/crawl away event.

Power. inReach is lame in this category. No user serviceable battery... yeesh. And, I'm sure the IP67 testing goes out the window if one tries to user service the unit. But, they must be acknowledging that as they have a solar kit that they are pushing for it. That is a part of my plan, as are the 14Ah, and 2X9Ah batteries I am bringing, as well as the 24v system USB adapter. I should be good on power for a good long time. The unit does 100hrs on a charge with 10 minute pings... on a 2.45Ah internal battery.

Would a PLB be a good thing to have, yes... Belt and suspenders. But, for my money, I am going to get a lot more use of the two way communications.

I thank everyone for sharing their opinion, with the exception of those who remain steadfast in their watch over the internet, looking for those who may be wrong.

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I think you made a very informed choice based on your Alaska trip and its requirements and safety in mind....
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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