Thoughts on current airplane market

mnewb1

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
293
Display Name

Display name:
M Newberry
I don’t know what percentage of folks are putting down cash for airplanes, maybe a large percent…but in the next year or so, if the inflation we are seeing does not reverse, I anticipate some significant increases in interest rates…if that happens the pool of people not paying cash is going to shrink significantly and then who, except those, rare?, cash paying buyers is going to be making an offer on an airplane emerging from a bursting bubble, especially while all those pilots who have reached their commercial tickets and are heading for a job flying seek to unload the now not needed private planes.

discuss…
 
Just a thought, the logic of which I like to test with greater minds then mine
 
Aviation has officially become a rich man's game. Most planes are bought for cash or loans out of high-value margin accounts. Interest rates are largely irreverent. The day of Johnny W2 paycheck financing a plane and able to maintain it are largely over.

There are a lot of people in this forum who already own planes that comprise the dwindling "average guy" full ownership of an aircraft. We are rapidly becoming more like Europe with ownership for the common guy as part of a club or association.

An engine for a 182 is $40K. The financial wherewithal required is large.
 
It seems there are two types of folks buying (or trying to buy) airplanes these days. Those buying new Diamonds, Cessna, Pipers, TBM's, etc. are obviously either pretty well off or have a business or flight school which allows them to write off the aircraft. I have read of some university flight schools buying several new airplanes. My thinking is that those folks headed for the airlines are likely trying to build hours instructing at a flight school or similar and are not, for the most part, buying airplanes.

Then there is the "average Joe" trying to buy an airplane (folks like some of us here) who just wants to fly and enjoys being in the air. Some may use their airplane to travel for a weekend at the beach or something like that, some fly recreational aerobatics, while others just go for $100 hamburgers, etc. For most folks who fit into this category, the cost of a new airplane is pretty prohibitive, let alone hard to justify for what we use it for. I think folks who fit into this category likely need to spend less than $100,000 on an airplane, and may have to use an equity line or borrow from an aircraft lender to finance the purchase. If borrowing, the payments may not be a whole lot higher than a person would spend playing golf regularly or boating. Once bitten by the bug, I think folks will continue to try to buy airplanes for this category if there is any way they can do that. A person needs to have some fun in this life, and if flying is the passion, they will continue to find a way to do that.
 
Inflation will not reverse, it may drop, but it will not return to the 2% target as the fed hopes (they’ve been wrong for a year) this year.
That means plane prices will not be lower in the future,unless maybe we have a world war or severe recession.
I couldn’t afford to fly till I was in my 50s, I know the feeling.
 
I think average Joe’s are flooding into clubs more and more. I suspect because cost of entry is much higher now. Clubs are a great deal.

As a prospective prospective buyer, I’m hoping we get a little bit of puking here at the top - perhaps driven by higher fuel costs, which will allow me to pounce. I’m almost certainly going to use leverage to purchase. I’ll want to have a healthy reserve to spend on Year 1 Mx.
 
I don’t know what percentage of folks are putting down cash for airplanes, maybe a large percent…but in the next year or so, if the inflation we are seeing does not reverse, I anticipate some significant increases in interest rates…if that happens the pool of people not paying cash is going to shrink significantly and then who, except those, rare?, cash paying buyers is going to be making an offer on an airplane emerging from a bursting bubble, especially while all those pilots who have reached their commercial tickets and are heading for a job flying seek to unload the now not needed private planes.

discuss…
Also not 100% sure what you’re seeking…
I just sold my plane and the buyer paid cash.
Inflation won’t reverse. The hope is that it gets back to a more normal value.
Interest rates will go up…Hopefully soon
I also don’t think many people on a professional Pilot track are buying planes to get there.

If your point is people buying at the height of the market will potentially have a harder time selling in the future than when they bought, I don’t think that’s specific to planes. It’ll be the same for houses, boats, etc.
 
Until banks make it easier for marijuana dispensaries to deposit cash , there will be plenty of cash available to buy airplanes.
 
Canada here so things might be a little different but I doubt that. In the past three years, I bought 5 and sold 4 single engine airplanes. Every single one was bought and sold cash. Banks don't give loans for toys unless you 2nd mortgage your home or pay a really bad interest rate, and the lenders that do loan money for toys want you to buy really expensive toys. I talked to an aviation lender and he said they'd finance a plane from $100k upwards. The planes I bought were below the $100k mark. I doubt prices of your typical, 30+ year old GA aircraft will swing significantly in either direction in the coming years.
 
I have a lot of friends in the GA market, most owning multiple planes. I know of none that borrowed on the plane to buy. Two used HELOCS, but not a typical aviation loan. I don’t have empirical data, but it seems to still be a mainly cash market. I’d never want to use leverage/borrow on a hobby, but I’m sure there are some that do it.
 
I just put a deposit on a plane that I could have bought 3 yeats ago for half the price I'm paying now. I'm not in the 1%, never have been, maybe one lucky day i will be. I'm paying cash but I've been damn lucky in life. If COVId taught me anything, it's finally time to start enjoying that luck. I don’t know when it'll run out.
 
Airplanes have ALWAYS been for the well off folks. Nothing new about that. Airplanes are expensive! Always been that way. Many of the cash buyers have gotten low interest loans on their inflated house values. So when the low interest loans go away, if they do, then there will be fewer cash buyers, and probably fewer buyers as well. But fewer airplanes will be available in moderate and lower price categories, so the supply and demand will remain similar to now.
 
If I had my medical I could have pulled the trigger on a warrior/Archer/Skyhawk in 2019 for sole ownership, but I wanted a partnership to split fixed costs.

Today, the asking prices for those same planes are crazy. 100k for a 40 year-old 4-seat trainer?

I wasn’t wealthier 3-years ago. The market jumped.

Maybe GA is different but I still expect a glut of used waverunners, skidoo’s, Bayliners to hit the market in the next two years. Economy will correct and people will sell.
 
I’ll speak from the perspective of someone who financed. I bought my plane in 2012 financing about 85% of it. If I had saved to pay cash who knows if I would have ever been able to keep up with the cost of the plane. I paid $82k in 2012 and today that plane would be worth about $110k today had I kept it the same. But I didn’t. In 2016 I pulled money out of the plane to upgrade to dual IFD 440s, an NGT-9000 and some other goodies.

Recently, in the last few years, interest rates went down and I was able to refinance again at 3.99% pulling some more money out to do even more upgrades including financing a overhauled engine. My Mooney now has a freshly overhauled engine, a completely new dual screen Dynon Skyview HDX, freshly resealed fuel tanks, and is currently in the paint shop getting new paint and windows.

Airplane ownership, for me, has been a bit of a sacrifice, much like having a child. And I have both so I should know. I haven’t been able to travel as much as I used to or save as much money. But financing has allowed me to get the plane I want when I wanted. Sure, I could have saved the money to pay cash, maybe. But with interest rates at all time lows for airplanes I said “Why not?” Now, in light of this record high inflation, I’m really glad I did it when I did. My plane is finally just about done sans the Dynon autopilot. It’s been a sacrifice but my plane makes me happy and has been extremely useful for me.

I’m considered upper middle class so I’m by no means rich and one benefit I have is a defined benefit pension when I retire. I also have some money invested. If I didn’t have an airplane I would have saved/invested a lot more money but my philosophy on life is to enjoy the money while I’m young enough to enjoy it. You never know how many days you have on this Earth and you can’t take it with you so that’s why I choose to own a plane, even if it’s financed.
 
Aviation has officially become a rich man's game. Most planes are bought for cash or loans out of high-value margin accounts. Interest rates are largely irreverent. The day of Johnny W2 paycheck financing a plane and able to maintain it are largely over.

There are a lot of people in this forum who already own planes that comprise the dwindling "average guy" full ownership of an aircraft. We are rapidly becoming more like Europe with ownership for the common guy as part of a club or association.

An engine for a 182 is $40K. The financial wherewithal required is large.
I'm not a rich man, and I paid cash for my plane...but I make economic decisions that maintain aviation as the center in my life. For example, my house (which I also own outright) is valued at about 1/2 the value of my plane. My used truck, my used boat, and my cabin are all modest but paid for. I bought a brand new farm tractor, the only "new" large item I own, and I felt guilty afterward, lol.
 
I am in the boat of getting priced out of aviation. Sure, if I really prioritized aviation I could keep going but it's just not worth it to me. I don't particularly care to travel via my own plane. Too many variables and logistics to overcome that could ruin a plan I set months in advance. After all of my flying I have settled on the reality that my flying enjoyment comes from flying with friends to lunch, or to local grass strips. My Pitts are kind of my last grasp at aviation. It will be economical to own and operate, I can share hangar space with a high wing, and I should at least break even when I sell it. I realize it's the get off my lawn mentality but I refuse to pay 30+k for an old Cessna/Luscombe/Piper.. just not going to happen. I don't care about glass panels, hell I don't care to have a radio or a transponder. Give me a full tank of gas and a few like minded friends and I am happy.
 
I’m afraid that a recession is imminent. Nota matter of if, but when. Won’t that crash the airplane prices. I have two and I could get incredible money for either right now. I expect that after a hard recession they would only bring peanuts.
 
I’m afraid that a recession is imminent. Nota matter of if, but when. Won’t that crash the airplane prices. I have two and I could get incredible money for either right now. I expect that after a hard recession they would only bring peanuts.
I think inflation will do more harm to the airplane market than a recession. With the raising cost of everything else, there will be less money for hobbies. Recessions tend to hurt low earners or executives the most, less so middle to lower upper class people. I don't think prices will drop much, but how quickly they sell will.
 
If you look at it a different way, it’ll all be relative once (if) wages catch up with dollar inflation. So these “inflated” prices now, whether caused by the value of the dollar or demand outstripping supply, will likely stay roughly the same after this recent and possibly continuing upswing in prices. When wages follow, it may all be relative.

Yeah, steak prices have gone up. Either few will be able or willing to buy steak, and the market will adjust due to the supply-demand shift, and prices will come down (equilibrium), or they are already getting to equilibrium because people can or will eventually be able afford it due to wage hikes (because of dollar inflation).

The ones that will be hurt are ones on a fixed income or cash in a mattress.

That’s my opinion, nothing more, and I picked my words carefully, so I’m able to apply a lot of caveats.
 
I had a deal with a guy to buy his plane, he's retiring out and never advertised it but we connected at about that moment of decision. His plane was in an extended annual from early November and in December we agreed to complete the sale in the first week of March. It would be my first plane, a great training platform for IFR, getting around a few weekends and building hours. Everything was locked down in emails, phone calls, and texts including conversations two weeks ago. Suddenly last week I get this message "a buyer came by the hangar and bough (sic) the airplane. Sorry I just couldn't turn it down." He did not call me first. It was done.

I had the cash and offered to make a down payment, but he said he worked by his word and would get it repaired before I fly up. It was about 850 miles away.

Lesson 1: Cash down
Lesson 2: Signed papers
Lesson 3: Possession is 9/10ths of the law (actually learned that from my dad repeating it so much in the '70s but recalled it that day)
Lesson 4: The market is crazy.
 
Yeah, LJ, that’s a rotten way to do business. At the very least he should have given you the opportunity to beat the offer.

I have a firm offer on one of my planes that is twice as much as I ever thought I could get for it on its best day. I am really struggling with turning loose of it, but I would not sell it out from under the guy without giving him the opportunity to match the offer. I’m old school and want deals to be win/win.
 
I had a deal with a guy to buy his plane, he's retiring out and never advertised it but we connected at about that moment of decision. His plane was in an extended annual from early November and in December we agreed to complete the sale in the first week of March. It would be my first plane, a great training platform for IFR, getting around a few weekends and building hours. Everything was locked down in emails, phone calls, and texts including conversations two weeks ago. Suddenly last week I get this message "a buyer came by the hangar and bough (sic) the airplane. Sorry I just couldn't turn it down." He did not call me first. It was done.

I had the cash and offered to make a down payment, but he said he worked by his word and would get it repaired before I fly up. It was about 850 miles away.

Lesson 1: Cash down
Lesson 2: Signed papers
Lesson 3: Possession is 9/10ths of the law (actually learned that from my dad repeating it so much in the '70s but recalled it that day)
Lesson 4: The market is crazy.

Terrible person he is, that simple. You need to tell him that and use a few words on him. Men should keep to their word, sad a fool like that is involved in aviation.
 
My condolences as well, that is simply rotten behavior
 
Terrible person he is, that simple. You need to tell him that and use a few words on him. Men should keep to their word, sad a fool like that is involved in aviation.

Eh, we’re hearing one side of the story, which upon quick scan reads over 5 months of talking and no money exchanged. If I wanted a plane bad enough, regardless of the market, I’d have money exchanged asap. But I agree, don’t lead someone on and not give them the opportunity to counter offer.
 
Eh, we’re hearing one side of the story, which upon quick scan reads over 5 months of talking and no money exchanged. If I wanted a plane bad enough, regardless of the market, I’d have money exchanged asap. But I agree, don’t lead someone on and not give them the opportunity to counter offer.

I concur - I offered upfront but he said his word...
Life is a learning process. I shared my lesson learnt.
 
I concur - I offered upfront but he said his word...
Life is a learning process. I shared my lesson learnt.

I'm sorry to hear about this. Had a similar experience last year with a Bonanza (though it played out over a couple of weeks). It's really frustrating figuring out that they're slow to get a formal agreement in place so they can string you along as a backup.

That experience was a learning one for me as well. Walked away from a few deals after that when things felt the least bit fishy. Ultimately ended up with a solid plane!
 
Aviation has officially become a rich man's game.

When a Cessna single engine airplane costs 3/4 of a Million Dollars, it takes a group of rich men or a tax write off to afford one.

How much better is a $450,000 Cessna 172 than a $120,000 172?
 
My crystal ball is broken. What’s your point?
He is hoping for a large reduction in aircraft pricing, just like I am hoping for a large reduction in truck pricing.
Probably wishful thinking in both cases, although I might have a better chance wrt the truck pricing.
 
He is hoping for a large reduction in aircraft pricing, just like I am hoping for a large reduction in truck pricing.
Probably wishful thinking in both cases, although I might have a better chance wrt the truck pricing.

got it.

hey, OP. My crystal ball connected. It was a Wi-Fi password problem. In 27 months the market will have burst and you can get your 4-seat 150kt airplane for $56k with a low-time engine and a fresh Garmin stack.

You can thank me later
 
got it.

hey, OP. My crystal ball connected. It was a Wi-Fi password problem. In 27 months the market will have burst and you can get your 4-seat 150kt airplane for $56k with a low-time engine and a fresh Garmin stack.

You can thank me later
Ok, but what about my new truck?
 
got it.

hey, OP. My crystal ball connected. It was a Wi-Fi password problem. In 27 months the market will have burst and you can get your 4-seat 150kt airplane for $56k with a low-time engine and a fresh Garmin stack.

You can thank me later
Happy you found your crystal WI-FI password ;)
 
Ok, but what about my new truck?

my crystal ball says in 27 months the price of your new truck is going to go up 38.2% and you will only be able to choose from two trucks on the lot. In fact that will be a bidding war.

that being said, you should pick up my used GMC envoy from me, for $20,000, while I’m in the mood to sell it. Ha ha!
 
I had a deal with a guy to buy his plane, he's retiring out and never advertised it but we connected at about that moment of decision. His plane was in an extended annual from early November and in December we agreed to complete the sale in the first week of March. It would be my first plane, a great training platform for IFR, getting around a few weekends and building hours. Everything was locked down in emails, phone calls, and texts including conversations two weeks ago. Suddenly last week I get this message "a buyer came by the hangar and bough (sic) the airplane. Sorry I just couldn't turn it down." He did not call me first. It was done.

I had the cash and offered to make a down payment, but he said he worked by his word and would get it repaired before I fly up. It was about 850 miles away.

Lesson 1: Cash down
Lesson 2: Signed papers
Lesson 3: Possession is 9/10ths of the law (actually learned that from my dad repeating it so much in the '70s but recalled it that day)
Lesson 4: The market is crazy.

Be thankful, integrity runs deep, or not.
 
Ok, but what about my new truck?


I'm gathering that you like to buy a used airplane for a price similar to what airplanes sold for a few years ago. Considering those airplanes are now that much older, that seems like a reasonable request. I'm also assuming you'd like to buy a new truck without that pesky additional dealer markup, or even get a little discount. Le's see if we can project which one is more likely to happen.

Edmunds, the car web site people, estimate that there will be 15.2 million new vehicles sold in the U.S. this year. The Bureau of Transportation Statistics tells us that there are 212.2 million licensed drivers in the U. S. That comes out to one new vehicle for every 14 drivers, not too shabby, and if that actually occurs, it will either make the vehicle fleet larger or newer, depending on scrappage.

Let's see what we can come up on the aviation front. GAMA tells us that in the first three quarters, there were 895 total piston aircraft shipments by GAMA members in the first nine months of 2021. If we add the same number of shipments as were in the third quarter again as an estimate for the fourth quarter, that's a total of 1295, but that's for the whole world. The U.S. typically gets about two thirds of those, also according to the GAMA, so that's 855 airplanes. That includes some, but not all, light sport aircraft. Flight Design,Tecnam, Icon, Pipistrel, and CubCrafters are included, so maybe another 50 or so light sport? So we're looking at 900 or so new airplanes for the U. S.

Now, let's try to figure out how many pilots there are. The 2021 airman statistics have been published by the FAA: Some of these counts are very straightforward but a few of them require some estimation. The easy ones are:
Recreational Pilot: 85
Sport Pilot: 6801
Private Pilot: 161,459
and I'm going to count all of them.

Student pilot is not obvious, because student certificates don't expire any more. There have been approximately 50,000 student certificates issued each of the last five years, so I'm going to go with last year's student certificate issuance, which was 50,874. Note that there were approximately 23,000 first time Private certificates earned last year, so more than half of the students don't finish their ticket.

Also not obvious is the number of Commercial and Airline Transport certificate holders that fly light GA. Some of them clearly only fly for work, but I don't know what the split would be, so I'm going to say all the commercial rated pilots should be included, and a third of the ATPs, so that's 104,610 commercial and about 54,000 ATPs. Add all that together, and that comes to 377,829 pilots, or 420 pilots for every new airplane added to the fleet. So, no help there, the fleet is most likely going to shrink this year.

What about E-ABs, you ask? Well our own @wanttaja tells us here that approximately 1000 new homebuilts are registered each year, but the E-AB fleet is staying put in the 28,000 range, so no help there either.

I know some of us are hoping that as the boomers age out, that a large number of airplanes will come on the market. Sorry to say it's not likely, as the age groups that covers the baby boom generation has shrunk by a quarter over the last five years, and the age groups that will replace them are not going to be that much smaller.

So, what you have is a fairly stable pilot population chasing what is by and large the same old legacy fleet. All transportation equipment eventually wears out or gets destroyed by weather, neglect, and accidents, and needs to be replaced. That's not happening, so @Morgan3820 I don't see a less expensive airplane in you future. But a more reasonably priced truck later this year?


Doritos crystal ball say YES!
 
I had a deal with a guy to buy his plane, he's retiring out and never advertised it but we connected at about that moment of decision. His plane was in an extended annual from early November and in December we agreed to complete the sale in the first week of March. It would be my first plane, a great training platform for IFR, getting around a few weekends and building hours. Everything was locked down in emails, phone calls, and texts including conversations two weeks ago. Suddenly last week I get this message "a buyer came by the hangar and bough (sic) the airplane. Sorry I just couldn't turn it down." He did not call me first. It was done.

Probably one of the locals at the airport - this happens, he can still hold on to it - sort of...
 
Back
Top