Thoughts on a Cherokee 140 as a learner & 1st plane

Chesterspal

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Chesterspal
Wondering if I can get some input on buying a Cherokee 140 to earn my PPL in and then have as my own plane afterwards?

From what I've read, it seems to be an easy plane to fly and even easier to land, offers decent economy fuel wise and reasonable repair and overhaul costs.

The con I'm concerned about is it is supposedly underpowered. I assume that means it has a hard time getting up to altitude??

What can you folks tell me about this issue?

Let me add that, for the most part, I would be flying alone with my dog, Chester, so not using those tiny rear seats for much but some clothing, etc.

Thanks
 
I instructed in Cherokee 140s, and owned one of the later 1977 models.

Unless you plan to operate from high-altitude or very short fields, it would be hard to find a better choice for a first ownership experience. Cherokee 140s are economical, simple to maintain, easy to fly and relatively comfortable in the front seats.

I've taken Cherokee 140s up to 10,000 or 11,000 feet a few times. It can take a while; climb is anemic when you get past 8,500 feet or so.
 
What kind of altitudes do you need? 6500-8500 is the ideal altitude for a normally-aspirated airplane like that. Will that do it for you? If so, then I think it's a great plane. I flew one of the last of the series from Mississippi to Florida just before Christmas and it performed really well considering that it actually only had maybe 3.5 cylinders working, at best.
 
I enjoy flying 140s. Great roll rate!!... but seriously they are good airplanes. My favourite had the powerflow exhaust and 160 hp upgrade. If you can find one of those you will be happy. I would routinely see 1000fpm initial climb at sea level on a 10-15 degree day, and 110 knots easy in cruise. While sipping 8 gph? Perfect!
 
Got my PPL ,many, many ,years ago. The 140/160 is a good first airplane. Find a good one and you’ll be happy.
 
I think a Cherokee 140 is a great plane, and it was my rental choice after I got my PPL. But, I personally would wait until you get your PPL before buying a plane, because you might find something else suits your mission better. Buying a plane is easy. Selling, not so much.
 
Ideally, I'd like to do a cross country flight after I get my license. Connecticut to New Mexico, where I have some family.

Would this plane be able to make that trek and back in one piece?
 
All fun and games till the wingspar AD drops.... then it’s scrap value. Maybe.


I’d think long and hard about a PA28 right now. My money? No way in hell I’d buy one till the FAA makes a final decision. I’m a former Archer owner.
 
... Flew it way past TBO and still made money when I sold it.

This brings up another question.

The annual, which is also called the 100 hour, MUST be done once a every 12 months or every 100 hours, which ever comes first... is that correct?

The overhaul is optional or how does that work. Does not doing it mean you cannot take passengers until done?
 
This brings up another question.

The annual, which is also called the 100 hour, MUST be done once a every 12 months or every 100 hours, which ever comes first... is that correct?

The overhaul is optional or how does that work. Does not doing it mean you cannot take passengers until done?

100 hour is only required for commercial use. Like rental for flight instruction. It’s preceding 12 calendar months (a.k.a. Annual) for other Part 91 flying.
 
Annuals are annually performed and have a somewhat different criteria than 100-hour inspections.

100-hour inspections, if required, do not replace annuals.
 
I have about 130 hours in the Cherokee 140 over the past year. I can give you a good take on the differences in the Piper vs C-172 from a flying perspective

 
An engine past TBO may continue to be airworthy with an IRAN (inspect and repair as necessary) approach to maintenance. It eventually becomes a bad idea.

I remember a thread many moons ago of a Cessna 152 with 4000+ hours on the engine.
 
Just make sure both sides have the optional toe brakes. Many CFI's will not instruct in planes without toe brakes on both sides. Talk with your CFI before making a purchase as he is an essential part of the equation.

-David
 
I’d think long and hard about a PA28 right now. My money? No way in hell I’d buy one till the FAA makes a final decision.

Newbie student pilot here training in a 2013 Archer III. Make a final decision about what?
 
Just make sure both sides have the optional toe brakes. Many CFI's will not instruct in planes without toe brakes on both sides. Talk with your CFI before making a purchase as he is an essential part of the equation.
Yes, check with the CFI, but as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a problem in a Cherokee. The ones I instructed in only had left-side toe brakes. All Cherokees have the hand brake within easy reach -- in fact, many Cherokees don't have toe brakes on either side.

pa-28-140_fliteliner_pnl.jpeg
 
Ideally, I'd like to do a cross country flight after I get my license. Connecticut to New Mexico, where I have some family.

Would this plane be able to make that trek and back in one piece?
Definitely, but it'll take a while. Multiple fuel and rest stops. Family in New York, I live in Colorado. I plan 2 days because in the cherokee 180 it's about 10-12 hours depending on weather. My personal rule is no more than 5 hours by myself. With that in mind, and cost of avgas, it's usually cheaper and faster to go commercial.

Other than Oshkosh (7 hrs with a stop for fuel) I limit flights to a 5 hr radius around Colorado. Anything longer is usually faster and cheaper going commercial. On the other hand, aint no fun going commercial. I've done long trips with another pilot, and do 10 hrs a day, trading off every hour or so.
 
So, this business about the wing spar may be an issue for not going forward. What they're saying is, the inspection... the work to get at it to see it... will potentially do more damage than the issue itself and on every one of the 20,000 or so planes, if it becomes required.

By the same token, if there is an issue of fatigue, would owners not want to know that now?

Let me also ask this... how much work on ones plane can the owner do? Things like oil/filter changes, remove and replace radios and gauges, electrical issues, etc.... can we do this or not?

I'm a hands-on kind of guy with electronics background and I own three vehicles and some seven motorcycles which I maintain, repair, overhaul. Would be very frustrating not to be able to do some work on my own.
 
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Put the dog on the back seat. I found that my dog is more comfortable in the back of my Arrow and she was going to interfere with the yoke in the front seat. The short-body PA-28 is a great plane for one or two people and up to one dog. I occasionally use the back seat for people, but rarely.

This brings up another question.

The annual, which is also called the 100 hour, MUST be done once a every 12 months or every 100 hours, which ever comes first... is that correct?

The overhaul is optional or how does that work. Does not doing it mean you cannot take passengers until done?
The plane is not airworthy for any flight unless it has had an annual inspection within the preceding 12 calendar months. That applies to every certified airplane. The annual must be performed by an A&P with an inspection authorization ("IA"). If the plane does not have an annual inspection within the time limit, you are legally required to get a ferry permit from the FAA to fly it at all.

The plane cannot be used for hire to carry passengers or give flight instruction unless it has a current 100-hour inspection. (That does not include you getting instruction in your own plane; it mostly refers to flight instructors who provide a plane to the student.) This inspection can be done by a non-IA A&P. Because an annual inspection covers the same ground, it's common to see an annual inspection sign-off that says it was also in accordance with ("IAW" in A&P-speak) a 100-hour inspection. But if they left that off, the plane would still be airworthy for uses that do not require a 100-hour inspection.

The engine and propeller overhaul limits are mandatory for certain operations, which do not include flying yourself around for fun or receiving flight instruction. Sometimes an engine will go long after TBO. Sometimes it will only go halfway to TBO. The reasons for both outcomes vary wildly, from not flying enough to flying too much or from running the engine too hot or not hot enough. For personal use, the TBO number is really just a guess. You overhaul when needed based on other things. If the engine is consuming a lot of oil and the compressions are low, overhaul it. If the propeller has huge gouges out of the blades or is a constant-speed propeller that is throwing oil from a blade seal, overhaul it. If a plane you are looking at has been flying regularly since its last overhaul and has not been abused, then you can use TO to decide how much to offer for the plane, based on a reasonable guess about how long it will fly until you have to pay for an overhaul.

Ideally, I'd like to do a cross country flight after I get my license. Connecticut to New Mexico, where I have some family.

Would this plane be able to make that trek and back in one piece?
It depends much more on the pilot than on the plane. The most important skill to develop is good aeronautical decision making (ADM). With a longer trip, you need to consider more things like where to stop for fuel, how to avoid bad weather, what to do if you run into bad weather despite your plan to avoid it, etc. For example, the distance from Bridgeport to Albuquerque is 1,617 nm. At this moment, the conditions in the Northeast are IFR with low ceilings. You would have to wait for some improvement before you take off, unless you are instrument rated and current and flying a plane that is certified and current on inspections for IFR. Along the direct route, you would run into heavy precipitation over Ohio and thunderstorms from Missouri to the Texas panhandle. If you divert south a bit via Little Rock and Lubbock, you add 100 nm to the trip but go around the major weather patterns. You still have IFR conditions to contend with in Texas but not thunderstorms.

I don't know the range of a Cherokee 140. It's probably between 400 and 500 nm with full fuel and a legal VFR day reserve. Let's call it 400. One plan with legs that long would be to stop in Spencer, WV (KUSW), Trenton, TN (KTGC), Sherman, TX (KGYI), and Lamesa, TX (KLUV). That gives you three legs of ~400 nm and two legs of ~270 nm. With no wind in a 110-knot plane, it's 3:40 per 400-mile leg and 2:30 per 270-mile leg. Total time in flight is 16 hours. Add time on the ground at each stop to stretch your legs, have a snack, check the weather (basically you will want to re-plan the entire remaining portion of the trip at each stop, so you can adjust to any changes in the situation in front of you), fill up the fuel tanks, and preflight the plane again, and you're up to a minimum of 18 hours en route. It's not sane to do that in one day. It could be a nice two-day trip if you are up for it and flexible about weather or fatigue making it wise to stop for the night before continuing.

With good planning and flexibility, it can be done. There aren't even any troublesome mountains along that route. You have to cross some low mountains that are still a hazard for the unwary and that can make their own weather, but you won't have to cross mountain passes at the service ceiling of the plane. People have flown slower, less capable, less comfortable planes on trips like that since before the advent of the attitude gyro, much less the GPS. And it sure beats driving for 30+ hours. But it's not something you'd do for the purpose of being at the destination. The $342 commercial flight that takes 5:25, suggested by Google Maps when I checked the driving distance, is how you get to the destination. You fly a trip like that because you simply love flying.
 
So, this business about the wing spar may be an issue for not going forward. What they're saying is, the inspection... the work to get at it to see it... will potentially do more damage than the issue itself and on every one of the 20,000 or so planes, if it becomes required.

By the same token, if there is an issue of fatigue, would owners not want to know that now?

As mentioned by another poster I would avoid considering any PA-28 at this point. You already know about the issue. It is too much of an unknown at this time, IMO. Look at a Grumman Cheetah. Not costly, holds 3, has 160HP. Cheap to maintain and easy to work on. No problem using it to train in and easier to sell when the time comes to move up. Again, all of these planes are getting older. If you do consider a Grumman, find a shop that knows them. Wing spar inspection a must. If that's clean, there's not much else to go wrong.
 
Let me also ask this... how much work on ones plane can the owner do? Things like oil/filter changes, remove and replace radios and gauges, electrical issues, etc.... can we do this or not?

I'm a hands-on kind of guy with electronics background and I own three vehicles and some seven motorcycles which I maintain, repair, overhaul. Would be very frustrating not to be able to do some work on my own.
You are allowed to do certain things as a private pilot.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsl...Owning Your Own Aircraft [hi-res] branded.pdf
 
Newbie student pilot here training in a 2013 Archer III. Make a final decision about what?

There was a Cherokee Arrow that was operated by one of the large flight schools, that had a catastrophic in flight failure of the main wing spar. There is some speculation that the FAA will issue an airworthiness directive that will make many old Cherokees worthless, as it will be too expensive to comply with it. That's why some on here are counseling against buying one.

Assuming that you're renting this Archer, this is a nonissue for you.
 
Thank you, Iamtheari, for your very detailed reply, above. Also, thanks to pilot who posted the video. That was a big help.

Would plan to stop and see the country if I made such a trip. No hurry on my part. Lots of "off course" detours would be planned in and if thats gets me around weather, more the better. Wonder if there is an AAA trip-tick service for this kind of thing : )

I really feel I'd want to purchase a plane (like the Cherokee 140) to take my lessons in and get the feel for the plane from the get go. I'd also be paying down the plane, in a way, by not giving the $140/hour to the school. I'm not likely to want to get something bigger after I complete my license. I prefer smaller to bigger.

My concern now is this issue with the wing spar. This will potentially kill this going forward at least with this plane and that's too bad.
 
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Thank you, Iamtheari, for your very detailed reply, above. Also, thanks to pilot who posted the video. That was a big help.

Would plan to stop and see the country if I made such a trip. No hurry on my part. Lots of "off course" detours would be planned in and if thats gets me around weather, more the better. Wonder if there is an AAA trip-tick service for this kind of thing : )

I really feel I'd want to purchase a plane (like the Cherokee 140) to take my lessons in and get the feel for the plane from the get go. I'd also be paying down the plane, in a way, by not giving the $140/hour to the school. I'm not likely to want to get something bigger after I compete my license. I prefer smaller to bigger.

My concern now is this issue with the wing spar. This will potentially kill this going forward at least with this plane and that's too bad.

The wing spar AD is hardly an issue if you are at all careful about what you purchase. First off, it is not finalized yet. Secondly, in current form, it is heavily skewed toward flight school a/c. If an a/c has not seen 100 hour inspections such as those required for flight schools and rental a/c, the AD will never kick in. If you have less than 30 or so 100-hour inspections in the logbooks, you will not see it either. Finally, without my going back and looking at the draft again, the AD only calls for an eddy current inspection, IIRC. What is that $500 - $1000? Assuming it is clean that's NBD. Yes, if there is an issue then the a/c is not probably worth repairing but I'll bet you'll be glad to have discovered the problem.

edit, I will take a look.
1. "Only an airplane with a main wing spar that has a factored service life of 5,000 hours, has had either main wing spar replaced with a serviceable main wing spar (more than zero hours TIS), or has airplane maintenance records that are missing or incomplete, must have the eddy current inspection."

edit: And for those not familiar "factored service life" means 100-hour inspection. The "unfactored" service life is 85,000 hours before inspection required.
 
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Here is part of that article I was referring to about the inspection being more an issue than the defect, if not found to be present.

In March, the Piper Owner Society posted on its website a news report citing NTSB Member Earl Weener’s response to the AD in which he noted that “the data showed that the risk of fatigue cracking on all affected PA–28 series airplanes other than the PA–28-235 is significantly lower over their assumed useful life.”

Weener’s comments expressed concerns AOPA shares that “the risks associated with disturbing the joint to complete the inspection may outweigh the risk of fatigue cracking in all affected PA–28 series airplanes other than the PA–28-235.”
 
Here is part of that article I was referring to about the inspection being more an issue than the defect, if not found to be present.

...

Again, just don't buy a flight school a/c. Good advice in any purchase, IMO.
 
thats what i had trained in for 17 hours, There are many other aircraft that would fit your needs too
A er coupe would be great!
 
Interesting. Thanks.

Can I start the (my) plane up while tied down if checking things out but still do not have my license yet?

Of course. You can do anything put leave the ground.
 
So I can even taxi it if I need to get gas or take to the mechanic's hangar?
 
I already stated, if you had bothered to read ALL the posts here, this issue was a major concern to me and may keep me from going forward... so no need to refer to me as a dumb ass.

Welcome to POA.... your skin will grow thicker over time. :blowingkisses:
 
I loved training in Cherokee 140s, and wouldn't hesitate to own one. You'll probably notice a big difference between summer and winter climb rate; my Cessna 172 with 145hp would climb almost 1000 fpm winter and 500 summer. But with you and your pup you should always be fine except for very short fields on hot days. If they don't have brakes on the right side, they should have the brake handle in the middle for an instructor, would they be OK with that? Don't know what to tell you about the wing inspection thingy.

As for a cross country trip, I sold my C172 to a guy in CA from MA and it did just fine. Just don't be in a rush. Heck, you can even get your instrument rating in it later.
 
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