This week's approach

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by kath, Apr 22, 2005.

  1. kath

    kath Line Up and Wait

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    This week I'll offer up my new least favorite approach: the VOR 23 at Lawrence (LWM).

    It's not a particularly "killer" approach... not like the crazy stuff you folks have brought out of Aspen or anything. On the whole, it's rather vanilla. But I don't like flying it. I've flown it a couple times now, and I'm really hoping my DE doesn't choose it.

    So the question for discussion is... why does Kath hate this approach? Assume that you're doing it without GPS or MFD.

    Also, unrelated lesson learned: make sure you fly at least one or two IFR lessons at night. Why? Because of this conversation:
    CFII: Okay, when you get to 650 feet, look up.
    Kath: Okay, we're at 650...
    (pause)
    CFII: Where's the airport?
    Kath: Uhhh.....
    CFII: <click><click><click><click><click>...
    Kath: Oh. Right.:eek:
     
  2. BillG

    BillG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Have you flown the VOR/DME 21 into Minute Man (6B6)? It's awful - based on the Manchester VOR 25 miles away. Puts you way off to the right of the runway (or is it the left? Haven't flown it in a while and now I can't remember which way I over correct for it!)
     
  3. kath

    kath Line Up and Wait

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    Yes, I think that's one of the DE's popular picks, too... Good thing there are no mountains around there.
    --Kath
     
  4. mattaxelrod

    mattaxelrod Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm a IR student--after studying the approach plate it seems pretty straightforward. Wondering why you don't like it.

    (P.S., I'm in NJ now, but grew up in Beverly, and make the flight into BVY as often as I can).

    Matt
     
  5. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Kath, that's not really a bad approach at all. Slight twist to the OBS as you cross the Missed Approach Point, but not all that bad. With DME you don't have to worry about timing the final segment (though if you don't have DME or an approach GPS you will have to time), and you don't even have to use an ADF for the missed, you can do it with two VOR receivers. Of course, if you do have an ADF, you've got lots of references for spatial awareness.

    All in all, I'd trade that approach for this one (this is the only one at my home drome): http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00372VG32.PDF
     
  6. BillG

    BillG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Which DE are you using? Ray Collins is great...
     
  7. dwh

    dwh Filing Flight Plan

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    Gee Bill that one looks like you are flying through a forrest with all of those towers in the area. This id definitly one where the altitude issue is top of the list. I know in my case the height restrictions on the missed would be fudged to the plus side no matter what. It reminds me of the approach to the twon where the catapillar plant is in IL The VOR approach brings you down along side a row of towers that looks like a fence when you see them.
    Dale H.
     
  8. Arnold

    Arnold Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Kath,

    This approach will keep you busy. Without DME you will be busy twisting the #2 OBS to identify the next fix, but that alone is probably not your big objection. If you remember that to ask yourself "what's next" each time you pass a fix you'll be okay.

    If I had to guess I'd say you don't like it because as you near the VOR, probably still descending, the needle begins to wander, and you are tempted to chase the darn thing. To compound things, it is probably not uncommon to get a wind shift as you get near to MDA at about the time you are crossing the VOR.

    Here are my thoughts on minimizing the impact.

    First, I would not try to rush this approach. If you are executing the full approach, then be stabilized at your final speed and configuration prior to turning I/B on the procedure turn. This way you will get a good idea of the winds aloft while you drive towards the FAF. Then compare this with the ATIS. This will provide you with some indication of the magnitude and direction of the wind shift. This is of course not a trivial mental exercise, especially if all you have is dual VORs, but with practice you'll get the feel of the winds.

    Second, if you descend at 500 fpm flying at 90 kts. after you pass VELAN you will be at MDA in about 1.5 minutes or just about as you get to LWM. This is just 1.5 nm from the runway, so in real life you are likely to have the runway in sight at the VOR, but Instrument check rides are not real life. To my mind there is no reason why you can't descend at say 750 fpm and be stabilized at MDA a full mile prior to LWM. I would probably choose the latter, but others will disagree with me. This way I would be configured, at MDA, and on speed as I approached the VOR where my scan will be diverted to working hard to stay on course as the needle started to wander. In either case, as the "cone of confusion" imposed itself, I would have in mind a heading I am reasonably certain would keep me on course or close to it, and would stop chasing the needle if it was getting away from me, and just hold my heading until I popped out of the other side of the cone.

    This is a busy little approach which will test your instrument scan more than your navigation skills.

    So did I get it right? Is this why you hate the approach?

    Arnold
     
  9. Arnold

    Arnold Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ah the good old days. I taught out of 6B6 about 25 years ago. At the time only the Arrow and the Aztec had DME so I rarely flew the VOR/DME 21 as we did most Instrument training in Tigers or Cheetahs. I frequently flew the NDB-A. Most of the folks who routinely made approaches preferred the NDB approach as the VOR/DME 21 MDA is only 20' lower. Many would shoot the NDB approach until the were out of the clouds, then basically do a contact approach following a road that ran N of the field and turning left at a particular landmark, (both the name of the road and the landmark are long forgotten) and by doing so would be set up on a perfect final for 21. Since they would usually have field related landmarks in sight they would consider this just part of the circling manuever. This was also before the FAA redefined the definition of runway environment.


    For my first 135 job, checks at night out of PYM (plymouth mass). The approach of choice was also the NDB, NDB 6 to be exact, there was a VOR approach which has since disappeared, but my recollection was that it had higher mins than the NDB approach as the relevant VOR was far from the field. I just checked and they have since added a LOC/DME which only brings you 60' lower with the same 3/4 mile vis. requirement.

    On my few trips to Europe, I noticed that they had a number of NDB/DME approaches which had mins. comparable to LOC mins. NDBs were and continue to be a great tool, soon enough though, no one will know or be required to know (not yet, but soon enough) how to fly them. Kind of a shame to my mind.
     
  10. kath

    kath Line Up and Wait

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    Dingdingding! We have a winner!

    The FAF is VELAN, not the VOR itself. The VOR is only a mile and a half from the runway. If you're nicely on course the whole time, then station passage is obvious and everything's a cinch. But as you approach the VOR, you've begun your decent to the MDA but maybe or maybe not finished it, you're fussing over the decent, monitoring when you need to level off at the MDA... and maybe you've drifted a little bit off course. So instead of getting the obvious "needle haywire..flip!" at station passage, you get the disconcerting slow "needle wander... hey where's it going?"

    While your brain knows that if you just keep flying you'll eventually pick the needle back up again on the other side, it doesn't feel like something you want to wait for when you're 1.5 miles from the runway and at 640 feet.

    Incidentally, in the GPS overlay version, the VOR is not a waypoint in the procedure. The GPS sequences straight from VELAN to the MAP, so if you want its help identifying station passage you have to use the DME and be smart about it. (Which I am not yet.)

    Last night, when I flew this, it resulted in what I call a "freakout missed" which is when a pilot's brain shrieks "MY NEEDLE! WHERE'S IT GONE? AAAAA!!!!" and goes missed because it temporarily forgets where it is and what's going on. I was a little off-course at the VOR and got the full-deflection which sat there pegged for what seemed like too long.

    IR training is more like psychological warfare with one's self.

    --Kath
     
  11. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Kath,

    The idea is to get yourself stabalized on a heading that tracks the final approach course before you cross the VOR. If you do that, you can simply hold the heading across the VOR and not chase the needle. It takes a little getting used to, but the nice thing is that there is no course turn or shift as you cross the VOR.

    That's a trick you'll want to use when you fly precision approaches, too. And remember that you can use the rudder to make small heading changes.

    bill
     
  12. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Ahhh -- I see the problem -- and the solution -- the John McLain method of VOR tracking. I'll post it from home tonight or tomorrow, and once you try it, you'll never have trouble with the dancing needle in close to a VOR or ILS again, even partial panel!
     
  13. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    This belongs amongst the home page quotes.
     
  14. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In addition, make it your goal to stop the needle from moving (except when you're right over the station) instead of trying to keep it centered. A close in, off field VOR flies almost exactly like a LOC approach.

    Also, if you have ADF you can use it to help you cross the "zone of confusion" even if the wind changes there.

    And don't forget to tweak the OBS at the MAP if you use the VOR to fly to the holding fix.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2005
  15. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Guess I should have clarified what I meant by "stabilized", huh?.....

    Thanks....
     
  16. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    And here it is...
     
  17. RobertGerace

    RobertGerace Guest

    Oh my gosh...I did that once...with no CFII on board. That sucked...
     
  18. Doug R

    Doug R Pre-Flight

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    KLOU - great approach - Here is how it goes. Two pilots a pocket full of ratings and Types and a high dollar corp plane with the latest and greatest avionics. ATC assigns us the NDB!!! No problem will just load the NDB overlay into the FMS, but the FMS does not even recognize this approach. Yep you guessed it.. we had to fly a good ole fashion NDB. It was embarrassing, we were driving like a drunk trying to get it all lined up. Broke out at mins and landed. Now that we have flown to KLOU numerous times we have received that NDB approach every time VFR or IFR. We had to finally ask why they doing this to us ...was this some sort of punishment??? THe answer was for traffic sequencing with the other airport Louisville International. SO the moral of the story is always expect the unexpected and just when you think you'll never need to fly a NDB again in your whole life.Wrong.

    Clicking the lights at night, thats always fun when popping out on the approach and then wondering were the runway is at...whoops start clicking like a monkey!!!!! ha!. Still do it to this day occasionally. Have fun there is always something to learn.
     
  19. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Louisville Approach unable NDB, no ADF on board. Request VOR approach. If unable, well have to ask for sequencing to Standiford.

    -------------------------
    My experience is that Louisville is nicer to GA than Cincinnati (where it's "not through our Class Bravo), resulting in 50 NM detours sometimes.
     
  20. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    Somehow, I was sure you weren't talking about 'John McClane' of 'DIE HARD' fame, even though he did eject out of a C-130 and touched a B747; lighting up the runway with spent fuel.

    I'll keep that in my file of things to remember.

    Thanks Ron.
     
  21. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    Did this coming into VPZ after and icing encouter and diversion. It was day with 1/2mile vis. I thought I had the runway but was a road to the left of the taxiway. I kept wondering "where are the damn lights" When I got within a 1/4mile I finally saw the runway made the adjustment and landed, then I remembered <click><click><click><click><click>... DOH!. First time I landed on an ILS at an untowered airport and was not even thinking about the lights.
     
  22. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm surprised you haven't tried shooting a few ILS 9's at KARR at night after the tower closes! Same issue there.
     
  23. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    You aint kidding. I think that would be a great bumper sticker.
     
  24. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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    Hey Katherine, now that you are in Anchorage have you met this one? :eek: Makes the one in your orginal post look easy!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2006
  25. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Richard,

    Maybe my CFII has just gotten me so comfortable that harder approaches don't faze me as much anymore... But I can't see what's so bad about this particular one? It's a little unusual (but not way unusual) in that it has a DME arc and a kind of weird miss, but I think I must be missing something. (Like the approach, if I tried to fly it! :rofl:)

    What I am curious about is what the heck is runway "7U-25U"? AirNav doesn't even list it. I also see that there's an NDB/DME approach here. Wild.
     
  26. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Fly it from the VOR, and you don't need the DME arc. Best ye have two navs for the missed hold, lest ye be busier than a one legged a$$ kicker!
     
  27. Steve

    Steve En-Route

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    I believe that is a "runway" for ultralight use only.

     
  28. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    When I see unusual stuff like that a call to the aprt mgr or FSS briefer gets to the bottom of it.
     
  29. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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    This one is notorious with locals 1) because the VOR approach pops you out almost perpendicular to runway - circle to land is all that is available; but mostly because without a DME the missed approach - as was said - makes you as busy as a one legged...
     
  30. ejensen

    ejensen Pattern Altitude

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  31. jdwatson

    jdwatson Line Up and Wait

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    Nice there's 2 IAFs on each of the DME arcs.
     
  32. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Using just this info (I'm assuming the 6 degrees comes from everything earlier in the post)... And I'm assuming you want 2 miles from the runway to be able to get down? Not sure what good that'll do ya in 1-mile vis, but... I'll just answer the question and let you change things to your heart's content.

    We'll call the lateral error in feet Ef.

    Ef = 17.6 * 635.99705 = 11193.548 feet = 1.84nm.

    So, if all of the errors are maxed and working against you, you're gonna miss the approach if it's at mins (vis 1 mile).
     
  33. Patch

    Patch Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My answer was pretty close to that. Have y'all ever used the 60:1 rule? At 60 dme, there is 1 radial per mile. So at 20 DME there are 3 radials per mile, therefore at 17.6 it's about 3.4 radials per mile. So if you're 6 radials off, you're about 1.76 miles off course. Probably not as precise as your formula, but a good tool to have.

    It works for calculating lead radials on arcs, etc.


    Here's a pretty push it up approach.
    http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00576HILD32.PDF

    And the infamous widowmaker:
    http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00354HI21.PDF
     
  34. Teller1900

    Teller1900 En-Route

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    Bad approaches? Anything at Lebanon Muni in Lebanon, NH (KLEB ). None of them are lined up with the runway, all of them have mountains well within full deflection of the needle, and the minimums are absurd (the one ILS is a 386 foot AGL approach that requires 1 and 1/4 mile. The VOR 25? Dead on profile, you'll get a terrain collision warning. The airport is on the side of a mountain, about half way up, so the mechanical turbulence is never ending, and the trees (and mountain tops) aren't that far from the runways on any side. It's a good time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2007
  35. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    That's why they pay you the big bucks.

    A pilot's primary purpose is not to hit anything.
     
  36. Chuck Dillon

    Chuck Dillon Filing Flight Plan

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    Kath:

    When I did my checkride we departed Bedford BED flew the ILS 5 to LWM go out and do the full approach to VOR 23 LWM and a coupled approach back to BED. The hard part of the approach is remebering that the MAP is 3.9 DME from the VOR.

    BTW when I flew with Ray doing my ME he had me do the VOR 21 into Minute Man single engine!

    Chuck
     
  37. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    All of the local IR students train for the VOR 13 into PIA, Partial Panel. It's a heckofa PP approach as you are losing altitude and dont' have heading guidance until you get down to the next altitude.

    You MUST cross the VOR near EXACTLY for this one to work out. We also have 'em time from when the approch con says, "5 miles from the VOR turn right heading 050 and intercept the approach inbound, tower at the VOR 119.1." Man, start the TIMER so you will have adidtional verification when to just hold HEADING as you get oh so close to the zone of confusion....
     
  38. dmccormack

    dmccormack Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's a good training exercise, as long as the new IR pilot knows if he/she loses the gages, it's time to tell ATC you need vectors to the nearest VFR -- or if that's not an option -- a PAR or ILS and then vectors and all the help approach can give until breakout.
     
  39. OtisAir

    OtisAir Line Up and Wait

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  40. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member

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