This was tough:

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
9,488
Display Name
Display name:
Ben
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20050317/NE-3/cbe_loc_a.pdf

To make it really challenging, on this approch my CFII would not let me use DME (which is not required for this approach), nor the GPS. Aside from that, all I had was one VOR. How are you going to identify QUTEE inbound, as your FAF? I had originally planned to take the C172 which has two VORs as well as DME(but no GPS), so it would have been easy.

[See responses below for the answer.]

Wow, I love DME, GPS, etc!
 
Last edited:
Ben, are you absolutely certain that QUTEE is defined as that radial off of CBE NDB? It's clearly defined as the 085 Radial off of Grantsville. It's not so clear that it's an NDB fix. The 057 from CBE is part of the approach route. It's not clear that it intersects the radial at QUTEE.

http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fix-info/QUTEE

One of the things I had to learn with my instructor was identifying intersections (heck, holding at intersections) with only a single VOR receiver. Not easy, but it can be done - preferably with a flip-flop receiver.
 
Ben,

What is happening on this chart is very subtle and may even be a bit confusing. First, the bearing from the CBE NDB is a feeder intended to put the pilot into the LOC service volume where normal left/right off course indications can be seen on an HSI or omni. It was evaluated at 4500 feet and 4500 feet only which is well above the FAF altitude of 3300 feet. The angle of divergence between the NDB and the LOC is also too small to be an legit IAF/FAF. The 085 radial from GRV is used to establish QUTEE where it crosses the I-CBE LOC at the 3300 MSL FAF. You're right, you can fly this approach without DME but ADF is not used to define the FAF, or the IAF. I'll verify this on the 8620-2 that establishes QUTEE on Monday as I'm working this approach for the better part of the day but I'd bet a days worth of Krispy Kremes that the bearing ain't a legal player.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Ben,

What is happening on this chart is very subtle and may even be a bit confusing. First, the bearing from the CBE NDB is a feeder intended to put the pilot into the LOC service volume where normal left/right off course indications can be seen on an HSI or omni. It was evaluated at 4500 feet and 4500 feet only which is well above the FAF altitude of 3300 feet. The angle of divergence between the NDB and the LOC is also too small to be an legit IAF/FAF. The 085 radial from GRV is used to establish QUTEE where it crosses the I-CBE LOC at the 3300 MSL FAF. You're right, you can fly this approach without DME but ADF is not used to define the FAF, or the IAF. I'll verify this on the 8620-2 that establishes QUTEE on Monday as I'm working this approach for the better part of the day but I'd bet a days worth of Krispy Kremes that the bearing ain't a legal player.
Click to expand...

Ah, very good point. Of course I understood CBE NDB to be the feeder to the IAF/FAF, QUTEE. But let me verify: without DME or a second VOR, the only way to identify QUTEE, the FAF, would be to punch in GRV and quickly twist to 085, correct?

Oh, how I love DME!
 
wsuffa said:
Ben, are you absolutely certain that QUTEE is defined as that radial off of CBE NDB? It's clearly defined as the 085 Radial off of Grantsville. It's not so clear that it's an NDB fix. The 057 from CBE is part of the approach route. It's not clear that it intersects the radial at QUTEE.

http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fix-info/QUTEE

One of the things I had to learn with my instructor was identifying intersections (heck, holding at intersections) with only a single VOR receiver. Not easy, but it can be done - preferably with a flip-flop receiver.
Click to expand...

We do have a flip-flop. But I'd still have to twist pretty fast. After reading John's post below, I see that I can't use the NDB to identify the FAF, QUTEE, so if you have no DME or second VOR, you're going to be busy!
 
It would probably just be easier to relocate CBE to underlay QUTEE but that's probably not in the cards. Anyway, with respect to doing a lot of twisting. If you're on the LOC it doesn't matter what course you have set in the HSI or omni. There is only one course, it's set for you, and you can't change it. So, maybe just leave the course for the crosser dialed in and use the heading indicator as your inbound course reference. Cuts down on workload and it's something to keep in your bag of tricks then that spare NAV receiver goes Tango Uniform on you.
 
Ben,

You get yourself established on the course with wind correction and park the heading indicator. In the short time it takes to flip the radio over to Grantsville you won't drift very far.

And, as JR points out, the LOC deviation is completely independent from the OBS setting. You could preset the OBS to the Grantsville radial. When you're tuned to the LOC, the CDI will indicate properly regardless of the OBS. When you're tuned to the VOR, it'll read right only with the OBS on the proper radial.

FOr practice, you might want to try an intersection hold (defined by 2 VOR radials) with only a single VOR receiver. That is harder.

bill
 
And if you REALLY want to be a tough guy...do it at night. Inverted.
 
wsuffa said:
Ben,

You get yourself established on the course with wind correction and park the heading indicator. In the short time it takes to flip the radio over to Grantsville you won't drift very far.

And, as JR points out, the LOC deviation is completely independent from the OBS setting. You could preset the OBS to the Grantsville radial. When you're tuned to the LOC, the CDI will indicate properly regardless of the OBS. When you're tuned to the VOR, it'll read right only with the OBS on the proper radial.

FOr practice, you might want to try an intersection hold (defined by 2 VOR radials) with only a single VOR receiver. That is harder.

bill
Click to expand...

That's exactly how to do it in a one VOR/Loc aircraft. Use the OBS as a memory clue. Organize, organize, organize.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
It would probably just be easier to relocate CBE to underlay QUTEE but that's probably not in the cards. Anyway, with respect to doing a lot of twisting. If you're on the LOC it doesn't matter what course you have set in the HSI or omni. There is only one course, it's set for you, and you can't change it. So, maybe just leave the course for the crosser dialed in and use the heading indicator as your inbound course reference. Cuts down on workload and it's something to keep in your bag of tricks then that spare NAV receiver goes Tango Uniform on you.
Click to expand...

Duh. Why didn't I think of that? I know--I was under the mistaken impression that my CFII was going to let me use the DME. LOL! Shame on him for making me perform the approach as if my DME died! :D
 
wsuffa said:
FOr practice, you might want to try an intersection hold (defined by 2 VOR radials) with only a single VOR receiver. That is harder.
Click to expand...

Yep, it sucks; especially in turbulence!
 
Fast n' Furious said:
And if you REALLY want to be a tough guy...do it at night. Inverted.
Click to expand...
LOL! And the Zlin is, of course, certified for inverted flight!
 
OK, I'm going to delete most of the original post, just in case someone tries to identify the FAF incorrectly.
 
wangmyers said:
LOL! And the Zlin is, of course, certified for inverted flight!
Click to expand...

Don't forget that the CDI will be reverse sensing while inverted!
 
To tell you the truth Ben, I wish you hadn't deleted the post. You had a good thought and really made a case for what you thought was right. Part of the continual education process is when others come up on line with maybe a dissenting or maybe a different slant on things. We all learn and that's a good thing and sometimes that means not being right all the time. I thought it was a really good thread and you were it's Daddy. Now about that reverse sensing while inverted.....
 
Ben, you are so careful that even when you are barking up the adjacent tree...it's educational to everyone.
 
I third the motion that you keep your original posts, Ben!

Re: finding an intersection with only one VOR... The NAV/COM's in our fleet (the fancier ones anyway) have a "mode" button which replaces the display of the standby frequency with a digital display of the radial you're ON with the active frequency. This enables you to quickly flip-flop back and forth without any retwisting. So if you want to find when you're on the 085 radial of the second VOR, you put it in this "mode", track the primary signal like normal, and just flip-flop every once in a while and watch the display count down (or up)... 062... 071... 077... 085, you're there.

--Kath
 
Re: This was tough: Flight Simulator Flight

I'm stuck at a Holiday Inn in Wilsonville, OR waiting for a ride to the airport so I can zoom back to KBFI from KUAO after speaking at a conference yesterday.

So, here's a Flight in Microsoft Flight Simulator that lets you try this approach. I've set the initial conditions as follows:

You're at 5000 ft near the GRV VOR. Heading 093, ready to fly the charted transition to join the approach.

You're in the C172S. The autopilot is ON in HDG and ALT hold modes. The simulation is paused. To start flying, press the "P" key.

Copy the attached .ZIP file and extract the .FLT and .WX files to your hard drive. If you're using FS2004 and used the default installation options, that means the

C:\Documents and Settings\UserName\My Documents\Flight Simulator Files

directory.

If you don't know how to use Flights, see the "All About Flights" topic in the Flight Simulator Learning Center.

You can learn more about IFR practice flights on my Web site at:

http://www.bruceair.com/IFR Practice.htm
 
It seems to me the ADF-required part is not the FAF but where to go on missed, yes ? The KEYER intersection is defined by the NDB, additionally it can be found via the R-130 DME18.1 GRV and R-046 of ESL. Without DME (GPS in lieu of) or ADF I don't see how you can find yourself legally at the the KEYER intersection.

| After looking up the KEYER intersection on AirNav, the NBD doesn't
| define the intersection. Ok, why does this approach
| require ADF ?
 
Last edited:
jdwatson said:
It seems to me the ADF-required part is not the FAF but where to go on missed, yes ? The KEYER intersection is defined by the NDB, additionally it can be found via the R-130 DME18.1 GRV and R-046 of ESL. Without DME (GPS in lieu of) or ADF I don't see how you can find yourself legally at the the KEYER intersection.

No. KEYER can be defined a couple of different ways and neither involves the NDB. Read the missed approach instruction. Intercept the GRV R130 and fly it till you cross the ESL R046. You are at KEYER. Or, intercept the the GRV R130 and track outbound to 18.1 DME and hold. You are at KEYER. You can't do this right now 'cause the DME is NOTAM's N/A.

If you're at KEYER (not an IAF) and you want to do the approach again, fly the feeder from KEYER to the NDB (which is also not an IAF). Feeders are one way roads. You do not fly them backwards. Think of this as an "on ramp".

| After looking up the KEYER intersection on AirNav, the NBD doesn't
| define the intersection. Ok, why does this approach
| require ADF ?
Click to expand...

Well, for starters, there is no reliable way way to get from the enroute structure to the approach structure without it. The GRV R093 is a feeder to the CBE NDB then the CBE B057 feeder takes you across the LOC at QUTEE where you are supposed to initiate a procedure turn and again use QUTEE as the FAF. Also, using CBE determines the Minimum Sector Altitudes (MSA) because there is nothing else around that the pilot can refer to with a positive point of a needle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top