This one looks nice...

I think it may have been because it had directional stability issues, especially in turbulence. Any upward gust hitting the tail was translated into side to side motion. was pretty uncomfortable for passengers especially. Also had some structural issues with them i think, fixed by adding a strap or something to the attach point? the bonanza guys can help on that one. Im not sure if those problems didnt crop up later on.

They sure look sweet though...
 
CapeCodJay said:
Why was the "V" tail phased out?
I'll break out the bonanza book at home, but they eventually came back saying that the V tails weren't 'that' much faster. Was a shame though! ;)


tonycondon said:
I think it may have been because it had directional stability issues, especially in turbulence. Any upward gust hitting the tail was translated into side to side motion. was pretty uncomfortable for passengers especially. Also had some structural issues with them i think, fixed by adding a strap or something to the attach point? the bonanza guys can help on that one. Im not sure if those problems didnt crop up later on.

They sure look sweet though...

It's interesting. The V tail does have the stereotypical wiggle thus giving it the wiggle tail name. Even the straight tail Bo's have some yaw to them. However, the wiggle is taken out with just resting your foot on either of the rudder pedals. Rumor has is that a Cessna 207 has more wiggle than does the V tail. In my experience, turbulence in the Vtail is mostly felt through yaw vs. a vertical force in the Cessnas.

The ruddervators are spring loaded so the foot just adds some bias to the controls.

The cuff was added to the tail section after a few of them broke off. Without the cuff there was speed restriction on the V tails.
 
jangell said:
I blame the lawyers and doctors...

:D

Thank God Cirrus came out with the new hottness. :) Its the new fork-tailed doctor killer.
 
CapeCodJay said:
Why was the "V" tail phased out?
Because it was poorly designed. The early v-tail aircraft experienced 24 times the structural failures as the straight tail model.
24 times.
Pilots who got into a graveyard spiral and started building up g-s on the plane could find themselves in a world of hurt, since the ruddervators would tend to produce a nose up moment, which is exactly the opposite of what one wants to do in a graveyard spiral. If you look at the graphs here
http://history.nasa.gov/monograph12/ch15.htm (scroll halfway down)
you will see that the v-tail would bend in high g-flight at high speeds and act exactly as if a 50 pound weight was pulling back on the yoke. Not a good situation to get into. The result was that the wings would be overstressed, and the plane would breakup, where a better designed plane would be able to stay in one piece, and some pilots who broke out of IMC could correct before it was too late.
The v-tail was poorly designed. Later mods have attempted to correct this problem by strengthening the tail, although the v-tails still break up much more than the debonairs.

None of this applies if the plane is flown right, and excepting some extremly rare CAT issues, the plane is perfectly safe. Still the tail was a weak point. I would still fly one and nobody who stays out of vfr into IMC issues has any reason to worry about the plane's safety. It's just something to be aware of, and frusturated by Beech's reaction. (See below link) I'm not trying to bash 35's I still would kill for one, and I think they are beautiful, efficient planes.


http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/general/ethics/vtail.html


By the way that is one nice looking plane in the above link.
 
infotango said:
Because it was poorly designed.

I've read that myself. Or possilby poorly flown? IIRC there has been only one structural failure after the AD was issued. The data seems to show that the aircraft was flown outside its limits too. Darn Bonanza drivers...
 
Haha, I've been a 'REAL' Bonanza fan for years. We had a good family friend that would terrorize the hills in his V35A-TC. You could look out our windows and see him coming head-on. Probably one of the few people I knew that was truly one with his plane.

That said, I think one of the biggest problems the Bonanzas had early on were pilots that over-estimated their performance. "Doctor, Doctor, Doctor and... Doctor. I think that covers it." As another Bo driver pointed out, the V-tail is still alive today. It is just on different aircraft.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Spike, that someone should be YOU!

Y'know, I might be tempted, but I want more HP.

Have my eye on a nice 33 with 470N... who knows....
 
tonycondon said:
I think it may have been because it had directional stability issues, especially in turbulence.

Absolutely not true. Many folks have mistakenly associated the V-tail with tail wagging, thinking that that configuration is inherently less directionally stable. The truth is that all but the first few models (straight 35, A35, and B35) made prior to 1952 have slightly greater yaw stability than the straight tailed model 33). The model 36 is better in this regard but that's mostly due to the 10" longer fuselage than anything else.

Any upward gust hitting the tail was translated into side to side motion. was pretty uncomfortable for passengers especially.

Sorry, but that's not the source of the yaw/roll coupling. AFaIK the real source of the problem is the shape and dihedral of the wings along with the fuselage shape. There are plenty of other (mostly low wing) straight tailed airplanes that exhibit the same behavior.

Also had some structural issues with them i think, fixed by adding a strap or something to the attach point? the bonanza guys can help on that one. Im not sure if those problems didnt crop up later on.

This is another Bonanza issue that's often poorly understood. Back in the 70's and early 80's someone did a Nader style "expose" on the propensity for V tailed Bonanzas to shed their tails in flight. Unmentioned in the report was the fact that most if not all of the in flight structural failures occurred after a loss of control in IMC, often involving a pilot with limited or no IFR experience. Then the ABS requested that the FAA review the certification for the 35 series to determine whether there was a structural issue hoping to put the whole thing to bed once and for all. The that analysis led to a conclusion that there was a potential problem where the leading edge of the fixed tail surfaces which had been extended in the 1952 C35 (to improve the CG range I think) could rotate under high stress leading to structural failure of the tail and subsequently the main wings. AFaIK this could only occur outside the design flight envelope, but an AD was issued anyway requiring a temporary reduction in Vne (to Va) and eventually a "fix" was designed that strengthend the weak point on the tail and restored the original operating speed limitations.

In an unusual move, Beech agreed to cover the entire cost of retrofitting the fix to the fleet regardless of age or flight time. Other than a plane that hasn't been flown for years, I believe all flyable planes have been modified so this shouldn't be any concern beyond verifying that it was done. The quality of the repair should be consistently very good since Beech required the work be done at a Beech service center that had been trained to do the job correctly.

More recently, an AD was issued regarding a similar issue on the earliest Bonanzas as well.

Both of these ADs also requried that the balance of the ruddervators be checked as flutter is a definite possibility if they aren't carefully balanced and rigged per the service manual and a significant number of V-tails suffered serious structural damage as a result of an out of balance control surface that led to flutter. Some of these aircraft were safely landed and some broke up in flight.

To my knowlege there have been no (or very few) inflight breakups of Bonanzas that had the tail mod and properly balanced and rigged flight control surfaces. Many knowlegable folks consider the modified V-tailed Bonoanzas to be one of the most structurally sound aircraft around.
 
wangmyers said:

A turbine Bonanza is a rather limited airplane. It needs to be operated in the flight levels to get any sort of efficiency and since it's not pressurized you need masks. The fuel consumption is high enough that you are restricted to short trips unless the load is very light (like one pilot and bags). A more plausible concept is the conversion of a P-Baron to a single engine turboprop, something that's been undertaken by more than one person.
 
lancefisher said:
A turbine Bonanza is a rather limited airplane. It needs to be operated in the flight levels to get any sort of efficiency and since it's not pressurized you need masks. The fuel consumption is high enough that you are restricted to short trips unless the load is very light (like one pilot and bags). A more plausible concept is the conversion of a P-Baron to a single engine turboprop, something that's been undertaken by more than one person.
Lance, I'm not doubting you because I have heard stories which corroborate yours, but if you go to this website (and it isn't lying), it would seem to dispel most of those assertions.
 
wangmyers said:
Lance, I'm not doubting you because I have heard stories which corroborate yours, but if you go to this website (and it isn't lying), it would seem to dispel most of those assertions.

Which assertions? It's certainly not pressuized. I couldn't find any info about useful load or full fuel payload on that website (curious omission?) but it's my understanding that the latter is around 500 lbs and given the turbines appetite for fuel plus the higher weight of jet fuel vs gasoline and I think you'll find that long range trips don't leave much weight for passengers.
 
lancefisher said:
Which assertions? It's certainly not pressuized. I couldn't find any info about useful load or full fuel payload on that website (curious omission?) but it's my understanding that the latter is around 500 lbs and given the turbines appetite for fuel plus the higher weight of jet fuel vs gasoline and I think you'll find that long range trips don't leave much weight for passengers.

According to the webpage, pressurization isn't needed to get the high speeds:

"The turbine is flat-rated to 420 SHP for takeoff and climb, and gets you to the best cruise operating altitudes of 10,000 to 13,000 feet in about five minutes." Admittedly, I'm not sure what they mean by "best cruise operating altitude" here.

The range claim on the webpage says "1000 Mile Range Capability At 220 Knots True Airspeed!

The piston A-36 will take you only 732 nautical miles at only 170 knots TAS, for a trip time of over 4.5 hours. The Prop Jet Bonanza will take you 904 nautical miles (1039 statute miles) at 220 knots and will get there in only 4.4 hours. Its range makes this aircraft a true work horse that will cut out countless hours waiting at the intermediate fuel stop."

I am always cynical of what manufacturers say, but this copy appears to say that the turbine will get you further than the piston. But, as you point out, it might be just you and one other person who can go that range.
 
wangmyers said:
Admittedly, I'm not sure what they mean by "best cruise operating altitude" here.

Probably either the altitude which produces the highest true airspeed at max power or the highest "no oxygen" altitude.

The range claim on the webpage says "1000 Mile Range Capability At 220 Knots True Airspeed!

The piston A-36 will take you only 732 nautical miles at only 170 knots TAS, for a trip time of over 4.5 hours. The Prop Jet Bonanza will take you 904 nautical miles (1039 statute miles) at 220 knots and will get there in only 4.4 hours. Its range makes this aircraft a true work horse that will cut out countless hours waiting at the intermediate fuel stop."

I am always cynical of what manufacturers say, but this copy appears to say that the turbine will get you further than the piston. But, as you point out, it might be just you and one other person who can go that range.

I'm pretty sure they are comparing an normally aspirated A36 without tip tanks to the turbine Bo. A more fair comparison would be with a B36TC or a turbonormalized A36 with tips. IIRC either can manage speeds within about 10 KTAS of the turbine and have the same or better range. BTW the range quoted in their hype is for "economy cruise" at 20,000 MSL. Down lower and/or at normal cruise speeds the range is significantly less.

It's not really a bad plane, but as near as I can tell, the prime advantages are a slightly higher top cruise speed and the reliability and smoothness of a turbine in exchange for significantly higher operating costs.
 
lancefisher said:
. . .as near as I can tell, the prime advantages are a slightly higher top cruise speed and the reliability and smoothness of a turbine in exchange for significantly higher operating costs.
And all the women who will want you badly when you ask them if they'd like a ride in your jet-prop.
 
wangmyers said:
And all the women who will want you badly when you ask them if they'd like a ride in your jet-prop.

Perhaps, but chances are they would be turned off by the prop part.
 
lancefisher said:
Perhaps, but chances are they would be turned off by the prop part.

"You fly LITTLE planes? You mean with that propeller thingy out front??? :vomit:"
 
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