This ? may alienate a few of you but...

Morgan3820

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Shopping for a plane, Specifically warriors. I want the ability to run mogas. I have a local supplier of 90 octane ethanol-free.

I am looking at a PA-28-151 that has had the RAM 160 upgrade. So, aside from the obvious legalities, why can't I add a little avgas to my 90 octane mogas to make it the required 91 octane and run it?

I know that I want to have my cake and eat it too.
 
Hell, put whatever you want in the tank, who's looking? So you kill yourself and a few on the ground, or fry your engine, no biggie, you save around ten bucks an hour, that's what is really important.

Is it really worth the trouble and the risk? How many hours a month do you fly....maybe it is worth it.

With a Warrior, it is not the fuel, it's the upkeep and storage.

-John
 
Since you want to be a test pilot. Let us know what the right percentage is,and how it all works out.
 
In the STC I had on my 150HP 0-320 Lyc. in a Cherokee 140, 10% AvGas was recommended.
 
I am looking at a PA-28-151 that has had the RAM 160 upgrade. So, aside from the obvious legalities, why can't I add a little avgas to my 90 octane mogas to make it the required 91 octane and run it?
You'd need my petrochemist pal Larry to explain the chemistry to you, but the bottom line is uncertainty about exactly what octane you'd have with that homebrew mixture -- it's not as simple as "9 parts 90 octane plus 1 part 100 octane equals 10 parts 91 octane". Beyond that, it's just not legal.
 
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In the STC I had on my 150HP 0-320 Lyc. in a Cherokee 140, 10% AvGas was recommended.
Your 150HP O-320 only requires 80/87 octane fuel, so there is no octane issue involved. The higher compression 160HP version requires 91/96 octane fuel, and there's no guarantee that mixing "a little avgas" with 90 octane mogas will give you 91 octane fuel.
 
it's not as simple as "9 parts 90 octane plus 1 part 100 octane equals 10 parts 91 octane".

I don't know why it's not. Most gas stations these days have "blender pumps" and only two storage tanks, regular and premium. When you pump mid-grade you're getting a 50/50 mix.

It may not be so exact to allow him to have confidence in a 90/10 mix but 80/20 would surely exceed the requirements and be more stable than straight mo-gas too.
 
You'd need my petrochemist pal Larry to explain the chemistry to you, but the bottom line is uncertainty about exactly what octane you'd have with that homebrew mixture -- it's not as simple as "9 parts 90 octane plus 1 part 100 octane equals 10 parts 91 octane". Beyond that, it's just not legal.

This is true - octane ratings are "ratings". Many blends of octane, heptane, other fractionated hydrocarbons, ethanol and other octane modifiers comprise gasoline, the blends of which are all created to achieve identical performance in an ISO test engine. Performance in your engine may vary, which is why engine manufacturers specify a minimum octane based on the possible envelope of fuel formulation. Mixing your own without the benefit of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of testing equipment is pure speculation.
 
And, to add even more uncertainty, there are two different octane scales, "research" and "motor" (both are misnomers, but involve different SAE testing procedures and standards). Auto gas in the US typically reports the average. Avgas seems to use the lower research number, and occasionally both (e.g., 100/130). Which means 91 octane mogas is lower octane than 91 octane avgas.
 
This is true - octane ratings are "ratings". Many blends of octane, heptane, other fractionated hydrocarbons, ethanol and other octane modifiers comprise gasoline, the blends of which are all created to achieve identical performance in an ISO test engine. Performance in your engine may vary, which is why engine manufacturers specify a minimum octane based on the possible envelope of fuel formulation. Mixing your own without the benefit of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of testing equipment is pure speculation.

Great post.... And VERY accurate too...:thumbsup:
 
I don't know why it's not. Most gas stations these days have "blender pumps" and only two storage tanks, regular and premium. When you pump mid-grade you're getting a 50/50 mix.

It may not be so exact to allow him to have confidence in a 90/10 mix but 80/20 would surely exceed the requirements and be more stable than straight mo-gas too.
I don't have the necessary knowledge an understanding of the chemistry to explain why you're wrong, but my pal who recently retired after like 40 years as a petrochemist for a gasoline company gave me an explanation which sounded a lot like SacArrow's expansion of my statement with more big chemistry words. If you need a more detailed, technical explanation, let me know and I'll see if my pal can write up something for you.

In the mean time, even if you don't understand the chemistry, I'm sure you understand that it isn't FAA-legal, and one hope that is enough to deter you from trying it in an airplane such as the OP's.
 
Your 150HP O-320 only requires 80/87 octane fuel, so there is no octane issue involved. The higher compression 160HP version requires 91/96 octane fuel, and there's no guarantee that mixing "a little avgas" with 90 octane mogas will give you 91 octane fuel.

Its been awhile but I think it was about lead, not octane.
 
When you have an auto gas STC properly applied to your aircraft, there is no reason you can not mix 100LL and auto. every one does it when they have a partial load of auto and fill up on 100LL.

very common practice is to use 3 gal of auto to 2 gallons of 100LL.

You will not see any practical difference between of any ratios of the mix.
 
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When you have an auto gas STC properly applied to your aircraft, there is no reason you can not mix 100LL and auto.
There certainly is if the mogas is of lower octane than the STC permits, which is the OP's situation.
 
Its been awhile but I think it was about lead, not octane.

No, the STC requirement is actually about octane rating.

And mixing by % of volume and assuming octane numbers will mix in a simple-math, linear fashion is just being naive and asking for a problem. An expensive problem.

If you buy the plane, plan to buy the 100LL. That's the engine you're buying, so get the correct fuel. My Warrior has the 160HP STC upgrade, and one of the things I had to make accept we overhauled with the higher-compression parts was to accept the fact that 100LL was that the auto fuel STC was a thing of the past.
 
If you were to mix it how do you do it? In the planes tanks or in a drum?
 
You will not see any practical difference between of any ratios of the mix.
When the chemists and lawyers are done waving their arms and wringing their hands, the engineers step in and point out that it is "close enough." If it starts pinging then enrichin the mixture or back the throttle off a bit. Scary isn't it! Learned to drive in vehicles fueled by natural gasoline.

Now with all that said, would I do it with an aircraft engine? It depends. Flying out of Denver? Yup. A sea level airport, probably not.
 
When the chemists and lawyers are done waving their arms and wringing their hands, the engineers step in and point out that it is "close enough." If it starts pinging then enrichin the mixture or back the throttle off a bit. Scary isn't it! Learned to drive in vehicles fueled by natural gasoline.

Now with all that said, would I do it with an aircraft engine? It depends. Flying out of Denver? Yup. A sea level airport, probably not.

Detonation is clearly audible in a low performance car. It isn't always in higher performance applications and it's not clear if you'll hear it in an airplane.

If you think chemists and engineers have opposite answers, what about a chemical engineer?

The real answer is it will work unless it doesn't, and if you want to do a test like that, you need to be prepared for the consequences.
 
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Detonation is clearly audible in a low performance car. It isn't always in higher performance applications and it's not clear if you'll hear it in an airplane.

I always get a chuckle when someone refers to my 470 cubic inch engine that generates a whopping 230 horsepower as "high performance".

And in the same statement refer to a turbo'ed auto engine producing 3 or 4 times more horsepower per cubic inch than my airplane as "low performance".

(and turning 3 or 4 times the RPMs too!)
 
And, to add even more uncertainty, there are two different octane scales, "research" and "motor" (both are misnomers, but involve different SAE testing procedures and standards). Auto gas in the US typically reports the average. Avgas seems to use the lower research number, and occasionally both (e.g., 100/130). Which means 91 octane mogas is lower octane than 91 octane avgas.

This is not quite correct......100/130 is the octane rating at lean and rich mixture based on testing done in the lab. It has nothing to do with using both MON and RON numbers. Here is a bit from an article describing the basis of the aviation octane system.

"Gasoline used in piston aircraft common in general aviation have slightly different methods of measuring the octane of the fuel. Similar to AKI, it has two different ratings, although it is referred to only by the lower of the two. One is referred to as the "aviation lean" rating and is the same as the MON of the fuel up to 100.[6] The second is the "aviation rich" rating and corresponds to the octane rating of a test engine under forced induction operation common in high-performance and military piston aircraft. This utilizes a supercharger, and uses a significantly richer fuel/air ratio for improved detonation resistance.[4]
The most commonly used current fuel 100LL, has an aviation lean rating of 100 octane, and an aviation rich rating of 130"

The old 100/130 fuel was green. 100 low lead is a replacement for that and is dyed blue.

Lastly, to answer the original posters question:
Avgas is formulated with the same chemistry all over the country so you know what you're getting. Actually I think its only made in one place so all of it is the same. Mogas is formulated all over and the chemistry varies not only by region of maker but also by day, month,year etc. You never really know what you're getting because it changes with every fill at the station. It mixes ok but it doesn't mean you're getting the same thing and for cars it doesn't matter. They don't normally change barometric pressure by much or very quickly. On the other hand you may climb that warrior 10 thousand feet or more in 15-20 minutes. Depending on what materials they used to build that particular batch of fuel you used it may have very low or very high vapor pressure. This can create issues with vapor lock, pumping leaning and other running issue. I ran autogas in my taylor craft years back. Its engine was originally built to run on 70 octane fuel. It had a high wing so gravity flow to the carb. I didn't normally do any big climbs to high altitude though I started at 6000ft elevation to start with. At the time there wasn't ethanol in the fuel....at least not on purpose. I ended up with 4 burned exhaust valves after 250 hours or running. In the end I decided its not worth risking the engine and passengers on a fuel we don't really know anything about because it changes so frequently. I'll stick with 100LL for the 160HP O-320 in my Cessna. At least I know what I'm dealing with here....


Frank
 
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If you think chemists and engineers have opposite answers, what about a chemical engineer?

What about them? I have one on my staff. Sheesh.
 
There certainly is if the mogas is of lower octane than the STC permits, which is the OP's situation.

Where can you buy any auto gas lower than 87oct?

Did you read my statement when you have a STC properly applied? The ops aircraft with the lycoming 160 horse 0-320 does not have a auto gas STC, so they can't run any auto fuel. moot point of how much auto is in the mix.
 
I run 95% auto gas in my Rotax for 7 years now. I would mix 100LL if I needed to bump octane.

There is so much detonation protection in a Rotax 912 that I end up cruising full rich at high altitude. You can have leaning but not at WOT.
 
Where can you buy any auto gas lower than 87oct?


All over the mountain west. I guess you don't venture through the Rockies much?


1555f05.jpg
 
I always get a chuckle when someone refers to my 470 cubic inch engine that generates a whopping 230 horsepower as "high performance".

And in the same statement refer to a turbo'ed auto engine producing 3 or 4 times more horsepower per cubic inch than my airplane as "low performance".

(and turning 3 or 4 times the RPMs too!)

Most of the kids get " liters " more than Cubic Inches these days.

"The O-470 is a 7.7L straight six cylinder that only puts out 230 horsepower at sea level." usually surprises the gear heads. Heh.

They ain't efficient. That's for sure.
 
I am 100% sure the 91 Octane is not really 91...:no::no:

I'm not sure I've ever seen detonation that cracked the piston head before the ring lands, especially with an octane problem. Are you sure that isn't preignition? It does appear as though it hasn't melted.

Detonation is not only caused by poor gasoline. A really obvious source for severe detonation is a turbocharger failure, especially a stuck wastegate. Oil consumption can do that as well, but it would foul the piston head.

It's true that flycuts are the weak spot in the piston head, but did the valve look OK? That kinda looks like a valve contact, which can happen in an interference engine with a sticky valve.

Octane ratings are regulated, so if you have proof that 91 is not 91, contact DOT to spare the rest of us from that.
 
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All over the mountain west. I guess you don't venture through the Rockies much

No I don't, the STC s for auto all require 87 oct. If you can't use alcohol or any fuel less than 87 why buy it?
 
Most of the kids get " liters " more than Cubic Inches these days.

"The O-470 is a 7.7L straight six cylinder that only puts out 230 horsepower at sea level." usually surprises the gear heads. Heh.

They ain't efficient. That's for sure.

I wonder what the "O" means in the designation O-470
 
Most of the kids get " liters " more than Cubic Inches these days.

"The O-470 is a 7.7L straight six cylinder that only puts out 230 horsepower at sea level." usually surprises the gear heads. Heh.

They ain't efficient. That's for sure.

True, but mine does it at 2400RPM and will happily do so until it wears out
 
I wonder what the "O" means in the designation O-470

Yeah yeah. Opposed. :) I was typing too fast while I was thinking about going flying. Then I realized I think my damn ramp badge expired on the 31st. Grrrr.
 
When the chemists and lawyers are done waving their arms and wringing their hands, the engineers step in and point out that it is "close enough."
If you can find a professional engineer who will say that in writing with attribution, please let me know. OTOH, all the qualified ones I know say it is not "close enough". But even if you could find someone with those qualifications to say that, it wouldn't matter to the FAA, which clearly says it is illegal.
 
Where can you buy any auto gas lower than 87oct?
That STC requires 91 octane or better. Use of 87 octane (or even the proposed 90 octane) mogas in any quantity/concentration in that airplane with that STC is not legal.
 
No I don't, the STC s for auto all require 87 oct.
You need to do more research. There are quite a few which require 91 octane, starting with the ones for the 160HP O-320's and all the O-360's. Those engines, with CR's of 8.0:1 or higher will not tolerate 87 octane mogas -- insufficient detonation margin.
 
You need to do more research. There are quite a few which require 91 octane, starting with the ones for the 160HP O-320's and all the O-360's. Those engines, with CR's of 8.0:1 or higher will not tolerate 87 octane mogas -- insufficient detonation margin.

you are right, there are several STC s that require higher oct than 87, But you are not going to find a reliable source of fuel supply. because most of the auto fuel suppliers use alcohol to gain higher oct ratings

First you must comply with the STC requirements, but there is no problems mixing 100ll and the proper auto fuels, but trying to mix 100ll to meet the engine requirements isn't a method approved any where as you have pointed out.

my point, is when you can find the auto fuel that meets the requirements of the STC there is no problems mixing it with that fuel. or did the statement of a properly applied STC escape you?
 
Most of the kids get " liters " more than Cubic Inches these days.

"The O-470 is a 7.7L straight six cylinder that only puts out 230 horsepower at sea level." usually surprises the gear heads. Heh.

They ain't efficient. That's for sure.

No, they aren't. There would be little point to winding up an aircraft engine to 8000 RPM or higher. Power isn't the right metric (but it also isn't in car applications either, unless top speed is a factor -- it does NOT determine acceleration like some gearheads think it does). These engines are optimized for torque. Fewer bigger pistons, long connecting rods, etc. That displacement is comparable to a big block V8, not a car 6 cylinder. The inline 6 in my pickup is 250 CID, about 4.1L.

It's an opposed 6. An inline would weigh nearly twice as much, for similar performance. My 250 is over 700 lb. That's heavy even compared a cast iron big block.

The dynamic compression IS higher in your aircraft engine. Cars don't go much higher than a bit over 7:1 dynamic, and for racing applications where they do, they often use.... avgas.
 
The effect of Tetraethyl Lead on octane is very non linear. A little goes a long way, but as you keep adding you get less and less octane increase (IIRC).

One could argue that the difference between 90 vs. 91 is hard to measure much less enough of a difference that you could count on a 91 octane fuel actually having better knock resistance than a 90 octane fuel. Also, the performance of a particular fuel in a particular engine under a particular set of conditions will be different in a different engines or under different condititions. So, all in all, the "octane rating" is a **** poor measure of fuel performance.

YMMV. But operating on auto gas without the STC just gives the bad guys something else to bust your ass with if something goes wrong.
 
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