THIS is general aviation's future base.

wbarnhill

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A comic I read frequently had a post about Flight Simulator and the addons like SquawkBox and utilizing VATSIM for realistic flight simulation.

Minus the part about drinking, the enthusiasm that this individual possesses for aviation, along with those who also participate in the virtual realm are probably GA's best hope for expanding our ranks.

It's satisfying to see people out there who may not have ever seen the inside of a real Cessna or 747, but have accumulated thousands of realistic simulator hours. The dream is alive in the hearts of thousands, we just have to reach them.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/10/08
 
William: in a nutshell, you have nailed it.

The passion is there, just need to get wings under their backsides, air under the wings.
 
William: in a nutshell, you have nailed it.

The passion is there, just need to get wings under their backsides, air under the wings.

And less money involved....

Perhaps less "We're better than everyone else" would help too, but from the argument in flashchat the other night, I'm probably alone in that feeling. lol.
 
And less money involved....

Perhaps less "We're better than everyone else" would help too, but from the argument in flashchat the other night, I'm probably alone in that feeling. lol.

The money thing is what's keeping me grounded as it is... bleh.
 
I wonder how many sim enthusiasts would actually do the real thing if they had a chance. Do Cessna, AOPA, King Schools, and Sporty's buy ads in sim mags and websites? If not, maybe they should.
 
I wonder how many sim enthusiasts would actually do the real thing if they had a chance. Do Cessna, AOPA, King Schools, and Sporty's buy ads in sim mags and websites? If not, maybe they should.

I really think that might work, particularly if they tied in the AOPA Project Pilot program as well as possibly working with some places for training financing. I mean the easier we can make the transition, the better chances, right?
 
Money is like potato chips. "Crunch all you want. We'll make more."

While that is indeed true (if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way), by the same token I believe we have a financial problem on our hands in aviation. We can all quibble about the drivers (tort, insurance rates, market domination by selected vendors, government regulation, so on), at the end of the day, the product is just too damn expensive on a unit basis.

I can walk into most any boat dealer and walk out with a boat, slip/mooring, and winter storage yard for a fixed monthly payment all wrapped together. It requires freakishly little knowledge and the financing of the asset is very simple.

OTOH, if I walk into a FBO, the process is entirely different. What, you want me to spend $120 an hour to learn how to fly, and it could take me more than the 40 hours to do it? There isn't a fixed price? Aside from putting it on a credit card (antithetical to many; yet they'll happily finance something for 7% over 5 years), and purchasing an older, run out plane that is only good for you and MAYBE friend, this is one heck of an expensive hobby that has significant barriers to entry compared to most other "luxury" pursuits.

As an example, an old co-worker bought a brand new Trophy 25 CC saltwater fishing boat. Twin Merc 175's and a panel full of Garmin, Honeywell, and Icom's, trailer, winter storage rolled in and a trailer, all for $82,500. Took out a 7 year note on it at a (decent) 8% interest rate. He put a few grand of cash into it, upgraded to a new truck, and voila, he's a fisherman who can go fishing any time with up to 6 other friends. Weather? He has radar, a GPS, and weather uplink; he can just drop the boat in in-shore and not make a run for the canyons.

A brand new plane with all the pretty glass, and the ability to run most weather (save for icing and severe turb), and to move 4 adults around, I'm in the game for $500k with a plane, insurance, my license, and a storage fee for the plane. This is not how most pilots I know would start; however, this is how most people think - how can I get all the bells and whistles? What do you mean there isn't a warranty? And so it goes.

Now, from a financial perspective, you can do aviation for a heck of a lot less. But the sheer uncertanty of it all, plus with the cost of an airframe that can hold more than two adults, with all the pretty glass and factory new, adds in the barriers that keep new pilot starts so dang low.

I liken aviation to those into classic cars, sailboats, or old wooden boats - people who are passionate about something to the point of all logical exclusion. At the end of the day, GA makes financial sense for very, very few of us - and for those that do, they represent a very small fraction of pilot starts (but a very large fraction of owner/pilots, I bet)

I don't think Light Sport is the solution. I don't think VLJs are the solution. How do we drop the cost of building and certifying 4 place, 4 "modern" (read: 200#) adult capacity, with some bags and gas, such that it is no longer comparable to a beach house and a really beautiful sports car?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I don't think Light Sport is the solution. I don't think VLJs are the solution. How do we drop the cost of building and certifying 4 place, 4 "modern" (read: 200#) adult capacity, with some bags and gas, such that it is no longer comparable to a beach house and a really beautiful sports car?

Cheers,

-Andrew

Make aviation immune to lawsuits.
 
Make aviation immune to lawsuits.
That's not enough. Besides the lawsuits, I see 3 main obstacles.

1) The cost of certification is ridiculous and is, IMO, THE biggest problem facing the industry. If you think of chicken-and-egg, wherein the cost is high because the unit volume is low, and the unit volume is low because the cost is high, certification is the weasel eating the eggs when the chicken isn't looking.

2) General aviation just isn't all that useful to most people. Sure, you'd like the airplane to take the kids to grandma's house twice a year and go on vacation once. No matter what the price, that's an awfully limited use. OK, you can argue that once you add in the fair-weather flying for fun the usage goes up enough to make it worthwhile. Sorry, I don't see it. How much does the average boat get used? My boat is two years old and has 60 hours on it -- and the guys at the 400-boat high-and-dry say we're out there "all the time" compared to most of the owners. Fact is, going boating twice a month for a couple hours each time is doing A LOT of boating. The time becomes the limiting factor for a lot of people, whether it's fishing, golf, boating or recreational flying.

3) Our talk about safety scares people off. Check out the magazines for motorcycles, boats, fishing, golf, just about any leisure activity. How many have analyses of disasters? The only ones I know of are the occasional "beware of sharks" articles in surfer books.
 
Make aviation immune to lawsuits.

Meh, I don't think thats it. First Aviation is a passion not a hobby. No proof of it but I bet there are more morons running into eachother in waverunners every year than airplanes. The waverunner mfgs get sued too but they don't cost as much. one reason is they are not regulated no meticulous annuals or 100 hr inspections. Second any numbnut can turn on a boat push the throttle forward and turn the wheel. Not so with Flying. Would we even want it to be that easy to fly. I think Bruce would have a stroke we'd just be expanding the pool of Hayden Schaffer's out there.

I'm trying to think of a precision high skill hobby to compare flying to but I'm at a bit of a loss.

Some of you think that LSA is not the answer but I just read that Cessna has taken orders for over 800 of their new skycatcher LSAs. Over 800. thats impressive So some one is buying them.

Now I have to say that I think the premis for this thread is great this is a very good discussion to have. Good post William.
 
Very good points Ken! Following up on that. familys will "spend a day on the water" Turn off the engine drift have something to drink and some munchies. Can't do that in a plane.
 
Very good points Ken! Following up on that. familys will "spend a day on the water" Turn off the engine drift have something to drink and some munchies. Can't do that in a plane.

Tony might disagree with that ;)

But yeah.. the closest we have to that is a 100$ hamburger. :/
 
any numbnut can turn on a boat push the throttle forward and turn the wheel. Not so with Flying.
Exactly. I think there's a lot more involved in learning to fly than people anticipate when they idly contemplate it. It's not the flying itself that is so hard. Anyone can be taught to take off, fly around and land. It's all that other stuff you have to learn, and to be tested on. All that takes a lot of time and effort. Then you come here or to other aviation sites and learn about all the legal and regulatory pitfalls, as well as listening to others pick nits. It isn't any wonder that the whole affair seems a bit daunting to the average person. I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with this, it's just the way it is.

I'm not saying that money isn't a big factor, but it's not the only one.
 
Tony might disagree with that ;)

But yeah.. the closest we have to that is a 100$ hamburger. :/

And it's more like a $250 hamburger if you want a plane that seats 4 comfortably and you want to fly more than 45 minutes some place.

I love aviation and flying but it's just too expensive for most people. A boat that can haul 4 around is a lot cheaper than a plane that can haul 4 people around.

I think Ken makes an excellent point about safety. The ragtag group of motorcyclists I belong to are a total deviation from the norm (ATGATT, "all the gear, all the time"), and we get into (ad naseum) arguments about what is approprate gear, and what is not. We debate safety, but we represent a very slim part of the motorcycle community (as evidenced by the number of tank top wearing, helmetless types we see on the roads today). People are flat out uncomfortable with the difficult safety discussions, especially when the risk of death is higher than normal.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
That's not enough. Besides the lawsuits, I see 3 main obstacles.

1) The cost of certification is ridiculous

because of possible lawsuits...

Can't use a A325 3/4" bolt which has a shear strength of 14.7kips, unless the FAA approves it. But that same bolt can be used in high rise steel structures.

3) Our talk about safety scares people off.

Get more people into it, and the more advocates you have.
 
because of possible lawsuits...

Can't use a A325 3/4" bolt which has a shear strength of 14.7kips, unless the FAA approves it. But that same bolt can be used in high rise steel structures.

Nope, Ed, does not compute.

The FAA, the Certification Authority, is not liable in tort for such an event.
 
Nope, Ed, does not compute.

The FAA, the Certification Authority, is not liable in tort for such an event.

Tell me how much an aviation bolt costs, vs the same exact part at home depot. Why are those costs incurred? The FAA.
 
Second any numbnut can turn on a boat push the throttle forward and turn the wheel. Not so with Flying.

I disagree. Flying is EASY. Learning the rules is hard. What makes flying so damn hard to get into is the price per hour, and the elitism in aviation that keeps the price so high.

If we had even 2 to 5 percent of the population flying, vs the less than 1% we had now, fuel would be cheaper, planes would be cheaper, and there'd be more impetus to design and sell less expensive airplanes.

LSA could have been the savior, for the common man, but the common man ain't gonna spend $100K or more for a plane that should only cost $20-30K.

Ed's onto it, I think. I don't support removing all liability, but to require AN part numbers because it makes people feel warm inside is silly, when the exact same part is the exact same part with one less stamp on it.
 
I disagree. Flying is EASY.

oh nick, come to Iowa I will train you through CFI, then get out and do some teaching, then see if you agree with your statement. of course it is easy for those of us who have already figured it out.
 
Tell me how much an aviation bolt costs, vs the same exact part at home depot. Why are those costs incurred? The FAA.

Agree completely.

My point was (and is) that the FAA's mandates have nothing whatsoever to do with litigation, and everything to do with bureaucracy and institutional inertia.
 
That's not enough. Besides the lawsuits, I see 3 main obstacles.

1) The cost of certification is ridiculous and is, IMO, THE biggest problem facing the industry. If you think of chicken-and-egg, wherein the cost is high because the unit volume is low, and the unit volume is low because the cost is high, certification is the weasel eating the eggs when the chicken isn't looking.

Not just cost, but time.

When the owner's group bought Commander, they obtained a warehouse full of parts, all of which had already been tested, accepted, certified, and recertified.

Yet it took well over a year to get FAA to approve a PMA for the group, PLUS all of the parts had to be recertified again that they meet design standards. This, of course, required a new certification plan/QC program that had to be approved by the FAA.

Actual airplane manufacturing, using the parts already certified, requires yet another set of approvals.

It's been over 2 years now to just get manufacturing approval on an existing type certificate using tooling and machinery from the original factory.

Bureaucracy at its finest.

because of possible lawsuits...

Can't use a A325 3/4" bolt which has a shear strength of 14.7kips, unless the FAA approves it. But that same bolt can be used in high rise steel structures.

And a big part of that is just plain bureaucracy, not lawsuits. The FAA and FAA approval does not ward off lawsuits. Like any other bureaucracy (which in many cases exist to sustain themselves) the FAA would rather micromanage design, whether or not it involves safety.

Get more people into it, and the more advocates you have.

Absolutely
 
If we had even 2 to 5 percent of the population flying, vs the less than 1% we had now, fuel would be cheaper, planes would be cheaper, and there'd be more impetus to design and sell less expensive airplanes.

.

Thats a double edged sword. Some think the skies are crowded already. Your gonna pay more to go to a beautiful remote Idaho lake an enjoy it with a few friends than you are gonna pay to go to Havasu on spring break and get cramed in with Thousands of others.

Make the Idaho lake less expensive to stay at and you'll get a ton more people but will you enjoy it as much?
 
Just thought of this. If it were purely the cost that kept folks out of aviation then why are the skys filled with Ultralites? Thats a very inexpensive way to get into the hobby.

And BTW we don't have anymore eliteist than any other avocation.
 
I am getting old an crumdgeonly. I think aviation is on its way out because no one today wants to do anything hard. If you can't pick it up with no effort in two minutes its no good. There are lots of folks with cash, and aviation really isn't any more expensive now than it was years ago; an aircraft has always cost the same as a house. I just don't think that anyone respects the achievement a pilots certificate represents. They'd rather play on their X box.

The stuff about not being able to just go to a dealership and buy an airplane with a warranty and everything is not too far wrong. But lots of people own and maintain vintage cars and bikes, and they don't have dealerships or warranties. I fear that something has changed in the American psyche.
 
A comic I read frequently had a post about Flight Simulator and the addons like SquawkBox and utilizing VATSIM for realistic flight simulation.

Minus the part about drinking, the enthusiasm that this individual possesses for aviation, along with those who also participate in the virtual realm are probably GA's best hope for expanding our ranks.

It's satisfying to see people out there who may not have ever seen the inside of a real Cessna or 747, but have accumulated thousands of realistic simulator hours. The dream is alive in the hearts of thousands, we just have to reach them.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/10/08

If it were that simple they'd already be flying in flocks.
The dream to fly is universal.
It takes much more than that, in multiple ways, to actually do it.
 
3) Our talk about safety scares people off. Check out the magazines for motorcycles, boats, fishing, golf, just about any leisure activity. How many have analyses of disasters? The only ones I know of are the occasional "beware of sharks" articles in surfer books.

Not that I disagree with your points (I don't), but as for this one, plenty of real maritime magazines do, moreso even than aviation. Checkout Professional Mariner sometime, there's a dedicated section in each issue. It's just that there are more boating mags than aviation, and the one that most get are the feel good mags that are sticktly advertising.
 
A comic I read frequently had a post about Flight Simulator and the addons like SquawkBox and utilizing VATSIM for realistic flight simulation.

Minus the part about drinking, the enthusiasm that this individual possesses for aviation, along with those who also participate in the virtual realm are probably GA's best hope for expanding our ranks.

It's satisfying to see people out there who may not have ever seen the inside of a real Cessna or 747, but have accumulated thousands of realistic simulator hours. The dream is alive in the hearts of thousands, we just have to reach them.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/10/08

I don't see it really, two primary issues. 1st is cost, siming/gaming is a heck of a lot cheaper. 2nd, you actually have to leave your room to fly. Millions of kids playing Madden, when was the last time you saw a pickup football game in the neighborhood?
 
I don't see it really, two primary issues. 1st is cost, siming/gaming is a heck of a lot cheaper. 2nd, you actually have to leave your room to fly. Millions of kids playing Madden, when was the last time you saw a pickup football game in the neighborhood?

The cost issue is one thing, but the second issue is something altogether. Equating millions of kids playing Madden to a number of individuals putting hours upon hours into as realistic as a scenario as possible is apples to beef. How many of those kids playing Madden have someone they consult with on game plays every step through the match? How many of them go straight through a multiple hour game without skipping scenes or pausing the game? Yet there are more than a few of these individuals out there flying virtual airlines day in and day out.

There is a lot more invested in the users of SB and VATSIM, and I think we should look at that area with interest.
 
The cost issue is one thing, but the second issue is something altogether. Equating millions of kids playing Madden to a number of individuals putting hours upon hours into as realistic as a scenario as possible is apples to beef. How many of those kids playing Madden have someone they consult with on game plays every step through the match? How many of them go straight through a multiple hour game without skipping scenes or pausing the game? Yet there are more than a few of these individuals out there flying virtual airlines day in and day out.

There is a lot more invested in the users of SB and VATSIM, and I think we should look at that area with interest.

It's not apples to beef at all. It's imagination (virtual world) vs. reality. Reality just isn't very popular. This virtual stuff is just like acid in the sixties, escapism.
 
Just thought of this. If it were purely the cost that kept folks out of aviation then why are the skys filled with Ultralites? Thats a very inexpensive way to get into the hobby.

And BTW we don't have anymore eliteist than any other avocation.

Adam, my friend, I have to disagree with you. I've found that aviation is again like the boat set - we certantly have a lot more "insider/outsider" elite types in our midst than other hobbies.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Not that I disagree with your points (I don't), but as for this one, plenty of real maritime magazines do, moreso even than aviation. Checkout Professional Mariner sometime, there's a dedicated section in each issue. It's just that there are more boating mags than aviation, and the one that most get are the feel good mags that are sticktly advertising.

Nat Fisherman and Professional Mariner aside, I find most boating mags to be full of total and complete pap. It seems to be every other month one of them has "The list of the biggest yacht/sail/catamaran/center console in the world" or the "The newest GPS+SSB+Radar+WxUplink in one box!" article, full of nothing but free advertising...

However, Wooden Boat (which does not do accident reports or failure discussions), is a notable exception, and a joy to read.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Nat Fisherman and Professional Mariner aside, I find most boating mags to be full of total and complete pap. It seems to be every other month one of them has "The list of the biggest yacht/sail/catamaran/center console in the world" or the "The newest GPS+SSB+Radar+WxUplink in one box!" article, full of nothing but free advertising...

You mean like Fly*cough*cough*ing magazine?
 
Thanks to this thread, I had to go buy MSFS X, and am downloading Squakbox now.

I had a life once.

No more.

CURSE you! CURSE YOU FOREVER...

ok gotta fly...
 
I'm still on FS9, but I've logged way more time on VATSIM than I have in the air. I'm currently on the way from MIA to LAX in a B738 at the moment.
 
Sucker is right.

Guess what squawkbox doesn't work with yet?
 
FSInn is a bunch of modules, one of which handles the voice, no need to install anything else.

BUT - the support for FSInn is almost non-existent, and quite rude.
 
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