Thinking About a Hangar...

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Oct 25, 2017.

  1. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    As a continuation of the "Thinking About an Old Taildragger" thread, which comes down to building a runway on our property, we need a hangar. This will be where the old taildragger is kept, but will also be a workshop that will house the lift (figuring full-size), tractors, new truck (since it won't fit in the garage), and a good portion of the tools.

    We're figuring on a basic 60x40 structure, sized that way intentionally to allow for a door wider than 40'. I suppose 40x60 could work with a 40' door for the aircraft types we're looking at, but this would allow a 45-50 ft door for the unlikely situation where we fly something larger in, multiple planes, etc. Obviously a concrete floor will be required to support a lift, although it doesn't necessarily need to be part of the initial purchase. My thought is that we'll probably do it at the start though just so the building is completed outright. Electric is not expected to be part of the start, rather added further down the road. We're not figuring on an electric bi-fold door, but rather some form of manual sliding door.

    Questions:

    1) Any particular manufacturers that you'd recommend or avoid? @jesse has been telling me to get a Morton building. We're just south of the Kansas City area.

    2) Reality is I don't know a ton of the questions to ask or particulars to look for. Obviously any place can spend as much of your money as you feel like. While we want something that's good quality and will last, we're also looking for good value.

    I'm sure I'll think of more questions...
     
  2. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,832
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    I would think any pole barn with a concrete slab would be sufficient. As long as they have the proper support structure for the style of doors you want, I can’t imagine there’s much issue. While electricity or plumbing might not be in the beginning plan, having some water/sewer trap piping and breaker box conduit run before they pour the slab makes it easier to add later on, and is of inconsequential expense. Make sure it’s insulated, preferably the foam stuff, but even the thin panels will cut down on noise.

    Make sure the wall height is enough for your service lift and the tail of any aircraft you’re storing. Sliding doors allow you access up to the bottom of your trusses, where traditional garage doors lose a bit of height due to mounting location.
     
  3. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    If ya don’t go with a full concrete floor look at foundation and attachment very carefully. Big tin buildings can have a tendency to come from together in strong winds. Good foundations and anchors help prevent that activity.

    Other than that I treated large shelter type buildings as a commodity and went with low bidder. My field guys didn’t necessarily agree but several of the buildings they built blew apart in storms.

    That said, 40x60 with clear span is hella big. Huge load on the roof. Lots of steel. I think we were north of $20k for 20x40 with 18’ walls. That was just the structural steel and skin.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    4,939
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I know this is future, but I don't recommend bi fold if you live in windy areas. A lot of my neighbors have them, and yeah they let you park closer, but they don't seal nearly as well as my hydraulic single door does. And when the wind gets behind them, it's not good.
     
  5. Diana

    Diana Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,169
    Location:
    Southwest MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Diana
    Ted, I don't know if you remember seeing them when you were here at the farm...we have Horton Stack doors and just love them. Funny...I noticed them on the Aerostar hangar in the movie "American Made".
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  6. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    If you want something that'll be around for a while, go all steel, not a pole-barn. If you go pole barn, unless you protect the direct burial portion of the posts (and there are decent options for that) then you’ll have a building that'll likely blow over in 20 to 30 years when the posts have rotted out...especially if they’re laminated and not solid timbers. And you get some pretty decent wind storms out over there!

    One note, if you want a 40’ door on a pole barn then you’ll likely need at least a 50’ building because you’ll need wall space on either side of the door for diagonal (diaphragm) bracing to keep the building from racking. You can avoid this extra width with steel but it takes a good sized frame and hella concrete to solidly anchor it.

    I love Diana's doors and would likely go with something like that on my hangar except that I ran across a 44’x14’ aluminum bi-fold Wilson door that a guy wants to sell. It’s like brand new, and in speaking with Wilson, a new one would be over $20k plus shipping. I’m picking this one up for $5k cash...it’s only an hour down the road and breaks down into (2) 22’ sections so it’ll haul just fine on my 16’ flatbed trailer. It’s presently installed on a big pole-barn hangar so I’ll need to remove it.

    Sweet!

    One other option that I’ve seen for a hangar door that I really like is installing three garage doors side by side. The two back-to-back vertical tracks that are between the three doors are hinged and swing up and out of the way. This is what I’ll likely use on the smaller building that I plan to build. The advantage of this is it provides the ability to have a remote and conveniently use them one at a time for vehicle entry/exit.
     
  7. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,832
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    30yr life seems awfully pessimistic. I'm in/around tons of pole barns that were built back in the 70's/80's that show no signs of rot. Obviously you're mostly talking about below-ground sections, but if they were set in cement, I think they'll be just fine for 50+. Don't get me wrong, the steel buildings are great, but I don't think 30 years is accurate unless they used terrible lumber and set them straight into the ground (which is crazy).
     
  8. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Diana, I remembered loving the doors you had on your hangar and was going to ask what exactly they were. I looked up some pictures and yes, I think that's exactly the sort of door we want to go with, that'd be perfect.

    Tim, I agree with going all steel and not a pole-barn. I'm thinking that concrete slab with an all-steel building is going to be what we look for. Since we want a concrete floor anyway, that just makes more sense all around. That's an excellent find on the door, though, and maybe I should be looking to see if I can find some kind of a deal like that as well. Honestly don't have much of a clue on where to find hangars, appropriate doors, etc. That said, I do think that the doors Diana has on her hangar are exactly what we want, so in absence of a screaming deal... that's probably the way to go.

    What would you generally expect to spend for an all steel building in that size range, assuming that they build it on site?

    There were comments above about insulation, which we do want but may not do initially in order to get the building built sooner. Plumbing I don't think we're going to do. While that's a nice convenience, I just don't see the need for it with the purpose of this structure. A fridge will be sufficient when electrical comes, and we don't want to heat it year round, which we'd need to do if it had plumbing.
     
  9. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Climate could be a difference, too. Tim is pretty familiar with the climate in our area. Oklahoma I'd imagine to be a bit drier, but I could be wrong.
     
  10. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,832
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Sure, but I can't imagine it's that different (we're talking 200mi here). NE OK gets plenty of humidity and moisture. He made some excellent points, I just feel he was being a little short on structure-life, compared to what I've seen. Plenty of old barns still going strong (timber density plays a part in that).
     
  11. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    And actually, around here, setting the posts in concrete causes them to decay faster...not slower...because the concrete is always holding moisture against the posts. At least the dirt is sometimes dry. But without concrete the posts don’t have an much resistance to moment.

    If I build a pole barn, I will buy the pvc sleeves that are made specifically for this purpose. But I would take one addl step. I would dip the poles in Kreosote (fake creosote these days) and then slide the sleeves on. This would seal any gaps. I would also make sure the sleeve extends an inch or two above any concrete to keep moisture from entering the top.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Post-Protector-6-in-x-6-in-x-60-in-Post-Protector-Case-of-6-Pieces-6660C6/203165692?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D21-Fencing|&gclid=CjwKCAjwj8bPBRBiEiwASlFLFYPKX2G7ZZQlxRpySasYP4W1KLZ39QhDk5xrjQGDnAqzB38ROdFTuRoCMpMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CMmk0u27jtcCFcx7wQodEPAM3w

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wolman-5-gal-CreoCoat-Black-Below-Ground-Wood-Preservative-14435A/204746311?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|google|&mid=sjAuD1RSG|dt_mtid_8903alh25183_pcrid_177285507105_pkw__pmt__product_204746311_slid_&gclid=CjwKCAjwj8bPBRBiEiwASlFLFZ01EU62iD6bMJBV5D8TpMtB56cefu8Fb0pFMSiXF2D6QHpbRnnhchoCqU0QAvD_BwE

    20 years is not pessimistic at all...not around here anyway...not with today's crappy rapidly grown, open grain, lumber.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
    SoonerAviator likes this.
  12. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,717
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    @Ted DuPuis

    A friend of mine lives in a rural area where everyone has put up a "shop", some have lifts. He's laying out and grading his property now to put in one of his own. Electric, possibly water, and NG or propane are all things to consider. Good insulation can prevent freezing in the winter, even without heat.

    If you want to see about 5 different variations side by side by side, let me know and I can run you out there.
     
  13. Theboys

    Theboys Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    829
    Location:
    Lincoln Nebraska- Plant city florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Theboys
    Go steel. Morton is way to expensive. I’m looking for a building to go at my house here. Looking at a 60x120 and was getting bids erected for around 65000. I want a 50 by 18 single fold which is around 10g. My combines need 16 plus to clear door. Going to use my driveway for runway and park a 172 here most likely. Need rest of building for farm machines and maybe hay or might dump corn on floor also.
     
  14. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    That would be very helpful, I'd love to do that when you and he have some time.

    Joe, do you have a recommendation on a builder/manufacturer, or are you just using a local outfit?
     
  15. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Steel building costs (and pole barns for that matter) are greatly influenced by shipping costs. Thus Joe’s best option may not be yours. If he’s doing this in Lincoln...then maybe...if Florida...likely not...

    There’s a good little PEMB mfgr in Ava IL that cranks out a respectable building at a very competitive price. Ava is done by Carbondale, shipping likely wouldn’t be too awful...

    Star, Butler and VP are the Cadillacs but they’re pricey.
     
  16. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,717
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    Pick a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon and I'll clear it with him. I'll check with him today about the different manufacturers he and his neighbors like.
     
  17. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Actually this weekend is pretty open at the moment, after that the weekend of the 11th-12th.
     
  18. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,717
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    I just emailed him, I'll text him, too. This weekend could work for me. I'll let you know what he says.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  19. Diana

    Diana Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,169
    Location:
    Southwest MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Diana
    Ted, there are a few drawbacks to the stack doors. If you have a snow storm and the hangar faces north, a little snow can come in.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    I like it! :)

    Really not an issue. We're planning on having a separate garage door on the building, and I don't see us flying if there's snow on the ground.
     
  21. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Ted,

    A couple other things to consider if going:

    All steel:
    • It will drive up your concrete costs, especially if the PEMB designer assumes a fixed base when doing his design. A fixed base design saves the PEMB mfgr money on steel because he is relying more on the concrete to carry the moment loads. http://www.nucorbuildingsystems.com/builder/engineeringtips/1.14.pdf
    • Even if going with a pinned base foundation the concrete cost will be higher than a pole-barn, especially considering that metal buildings are so light. Typically it takes more concrete to hold them down in a 70mph wind than it takes to hold them up even with a 30PSF snow load. (both those numbers are likely the design criteria in your area though you might be in a 90mph area).
    • Diaphragm loads are typically handled with cable or rod "X" braces. It is a very cost effective way to handle this loading but you definitely need to have all your opening locations locked in and provide them to the PEMB designer so he can coordinate with your openings and ensure that no "X" braces go thru them. That makes for a very bad day.
    • Diaphragm loads can also be handled with "wind frames" (a "wind bent") instead of "X" braces but those are a lot more $$$$. A LOT!
    Pole barn:
    • Really, just make sure you protect any wood that's in "direct contact" i.e. don't allow it to be "direct contact." Poteaux-en-terre construction has been out of vogue since the French fur trading days of the late 1700's and they had old growth cypress to work with, that's why they got by with it. Old growth cypress is more rot resistant than steel.
    • Don't nail down your roof, screw it down. This might keep it out of your neighbor's backyard during those 70mph t-storm events that you guys frequently see.
    In either case keep the finished grade at least 6" (and preferably 8") below the bottom of the wallsheets all around the building except at OH doors and walk door stoops, i.e. have 8" of exposed concrete showing. And, make sure you have positive drainage all around. This will also help to save rust and rot over the years. The mistake I see most frequently on metal sided buildings is the grade being brought up too close to the finished floor and the bottom of the wallsheets starting to prematurely rust because of it. I'm thinking about pouring a stemwall, the top of which is 1' above the floor, all the way around my hangar. This would keep the wallsheets higher yet above grade and would also allow the hangar floor to be power-washed without getting the steel and/or wood wet at the base of the wall. But that's not a cheap thing to do either, although not too bad if I do the work myself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  22. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Tim, can you just come build our hangar? We'll buy the beer. ;)
     
  23. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    sure, when I'm done with mine! :)
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  24. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    All good comments, Tim. Another question:

    You mention having 6-8" of concrete above the ground, except at doorways. I was generally figuring a 4" concrete floor (which should be enough to support the lift, but ought to look into that as well). So are you saying basically a lip of some amount on top of the concrete floor at the edges? And then have holes cut in that to allow for doors.
     
  25. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    You should "turn down" the edge of the slab a minimum of 12" and preferably 16". This both stiffens it and helps keep the edges slab from frost heaving. Run a few sticks of #4 rebar horizontally in this "grade beam" and you should be good to go. Those are bare minimums, 24" is better in your area (the frost line per code in your area is likely at least 16" though you'll never see that these days.)

    It would look something like this:

    8c39001588f8360e1d2e59b47c54aeae--foundation-detail-slab-on-grade-foundation.jpg

    This would be between your spot footings if going all steel, your spot footings definitely need to be below frost line at 24" to 30" to the bottom.

    And, yes, in my case I'm also considering pouring an additional 12" tall wall extending above of the slab to hold the wallsheets up even more above grade. It would then look something like this (though this one is only 6" aff):

    gradebeam.jpg

    I would definitely NOT bring the exterior grade up as high on the wall as is shown in the above.
     
  26. Diana

    Diana Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,169
    Location:
    Southwest MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Diana
    With our stack doors we had the option of either a trough, or a rail bolted into the concrete.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Diana, did you have someone local build your hangar or a larger company? I figure we're too far away to consider the same people, but Laurie and I love your hangar. :)
     
    Diana likes this.
  28. Diana

    Diana Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,169
    Location:
    Southwest MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Diana
    Ted, we hope you and Laurie and the kids come back down again soon. :)

    Our good friend and airplane mechanic, Zach designed and built the hangar (with our limited help). He lives on a farm with a grass strip just 4 miles down the road. He's going to be building a hangar on his farm in the near future. He is also rebuilding at least two airplanes...a Stearman and a Taylorcraft, besides working on most of the airplanes around here.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  29. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    So, if one were to look for a good deal on a hangar door (used or clearance), where would one look? Paging @timwinters since he found a good deal on his, but interested in other thoughts as well... :)

    The concept of finding a good deal on a hangar door and then building the hangar around it seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea.
     
  30. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,717
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    I wonder how many of the OJC hangar doors were still good after they were pulled down? Dunno how to go about finding out, though.
     
  31. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    A coworker of mine had that same thought. I sent an eMail but haven't gotten a response yet.
     
  32. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    I found mine when I was driving around SWMO looking at existing grass strips and talking with the owners to see if I could elbow my way into a partnership on one or if they'd split off a lot.

    One strip i looked at had recently sold and the guy who bought it isn't a pilot so he "decommissioned" the strip. He wants to use the hanger to store farm equipment and the bifold door reduces the headroom just enough to keep some of it from fitting. He needs/wants it gone.

    Just dumb luck to stumble upon one in this case.
     
  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
  34. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Lots of good PEMB companies out there Tom...many with mfgr'ing plants far closer than Idaho. It would cost a pretty penny to ship a building from ID to MO. (If that's their only plant).
     
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Not being an engineer, How would I tell the difference in quality?
    I know that the one I was in during high winds wasn't creaking. and all the other metal buildings I've been in do.
    Things I would want.
    6" thick floors. 4 " crack too easy.
    floors poured in sections, those poured in one slab crack and look like hell.
    Polish the cement like Home Depot does, and coat with floor wax, this stops the cement from soaking up fuels and oils.
    spray foam insulate it is expensive but pays you back in heat bills, it cost me 5k to have my little shop done, but I can heat it with a candle.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  36. Theboys

    Theboys Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    829
    Location:
    Lincoln Nebraska- Plant city florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Theboys
    Best quote was from small town lumber yard by Lincoln. I have two Morton buildings and another pole building I built from 84 lumber. The one I built myself is holding up better so far. however the oldest motor building is 41 years old now. Any new ones will be steel. We have lot of wind here regularly so the pole buildings have little more movement than the steel which oblongs the holes thru the steel. Roof leaks then. You may not have as much wind. Blows 50 here quite often
     
  37. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    25,508
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Keep in mind that this will be a project that will go on over a while. The goal to start is just to get the structure built (probably with concrete the first go round) and then add onto it as time passes. Easy to have scope creep, and budgets aren't unlimited here. The real point of making the building is to have a place to store the Cub. If we spend too much on the building then it'll take longer to budget the Cub.
     
  38. Theboys

    Theboys Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    829
    Location:
    Lincoln Nebraska- Plant city florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Theboys
    Well if it isn’t till your next party maybe I could load the dozer and excavator on kenworth. Just don’t have the party during sun n fun because I allways go and have several guests staying then.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  39. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,413
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    Did you stop by Beckner's?
     
  40. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,195
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    I haven't seen this much completely false, bad information in one post since Henning left.