Thinking about a Bus/RV

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted, Jul 17, 2020.

  1. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    Downhill from a safety perspective is really harder overall with a significant amount of weight. You’ve got a lot of energy and you need to have your engine braking under control, in the right gear, etc. Sometimes I’ve been slower down than up.
     
    Zeldman and TCABM like this.
  2. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    17,340
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34

    Display name:
    Matthew
    I just looked on the map. That was Eisenhower. We were headed west for a family reunion. The climb uphill (late August) was the first time I saw the “hot” light come on in anger on that car. The downhill was an adventure because a semi some distance ahead of us was trailing a stream of brake smoke behind him.
     
  3. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    What is the grade and length of that pass?

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  4. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    Disregard, I just looked it up, what kind of speed did you try to maintain going down, Ted

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  5. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    Those roads on downhill sections have separate speed limits for vehicles over 26k lbs. I follow those and it works well. I think 45 coming down Eisenhower. Wolf creek pass eastbound was 25.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  6. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    Tim, also not that we have a functioning exhaust brake (butterfly valve that closes with a switch, not proper Jakes). That makes a noticeable difference in engine braking. When we bought the RV it didn’t work and we really noticed the improvement with it working again.
     
  7. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,036
    Location:
    high desert NM

    Display name:
    Billy
    As I read this thread, I keep hearing this tune in my head....

     
    Ted and MauleSkinner like this.
  8. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    New Jersey (KMMU)

    Display name:
    Gary M
    That's a great fit, but I keep hearing this one in my head...



    Chapin had a few alternate endings, that appear in other recordings of this song.
     
    Zeldman likes this.
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    When I was hauling my Staggerwing project home, I had semis passing me on the uphill side.:eek:
     
  10. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    That really doesn’t take much. Got a light load and a 600 HP C15? Easy to go fast uphill and braking isn’t a concern.

    When I was hauling cars with my 2004 Ram i didn’t worry about downhill. It also had very good brakes and my loads were never more than 10k lbs with trailer brakes. It stopped well. With my 2017 I’d worry even less, the exhaust brake on the truck works great.
     
  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    You have no idea….I was in 1st gear with my pickup.
     
    Ted likes this.
  12. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    Oh, and this is what we want for our next RV:

    D7B3A985-28C4-4A5D-96F8-27E3A112CC28.jpeg

    I’m sure someone on here has driven these before. I’d be curious what people who’ve driven them think. Yes I realize they’re a military heavy transport and not intended as a motorhome platform. :)
     
    murphey and TCABM like this.
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    @Ted ,
    Any recommendations for fuel stabilizer with the Triton V10? I’m noticing significant differences in the way my generator (Onan) starts with fresh gas vs stuff that’s not. I’d default to Sea Foam, but a friend recently to,d me he had some issues with RTV seals, and not knowing what ive actually got, I’m a little hesitant.

    FWIW, I’m not filling up the tank until a trip…just putting in a little gas here and there to keep it over 1/4 tank when it’s parked.

    And/or should I figure out how to shut fuel off to my generator and let it run out before storage?
     
  14. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,796
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Sta-Bil works just fine in all of my equipment that sits for longer periods between use (boats, lawn equipment, power washer, etc). I'd use E0 gasoline if you have it available to you. It's better on rubber components and you'll get slightly better fuel mileage with it, which every little bit helps with the Triton V10, lol.
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  15. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,622

    Display name:
    ElPaso Pilot
    TCABM, Zeldman and Ted like this.
  16. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    What kind of generator do you have? I’m assuming it’s carbureted?
     
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
  18. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
  19. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  20. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,788

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    Staggerwing project? Is there a thread on this that I missed???
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Unfortunately no…
    bought it 25 years ago, kept me busy, broke, & happy for about 15 years. Got married, lost my job, had to move & give up my work space, so sold it about 5 years ago. Hopefully the new owner will have it flyable soon.
     
  22. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,788

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    That's pretty cool, man. Sorry you didn't get a chance to take it to completion, but even 15 years of time with it makes me jealous as hell. :)
     
    TCABM and MauleSkinner like this.
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,872
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    It was a great15 years. :)
     
    kayoh190 likes this.
  24. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,441
    Location:
    New York City

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    You said a mouthful when you said both directions have their challenges. Most folks will watch for the idiot light while climbing but almost nobody (present company excepted, of course) has a clue about braking performance. And it was worse back when drum brakes were the standard!

    -Skip
     
    Zeldman and Ted like this.
  25. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    Keep in mind most large vehicles still have drums. My bus has huge drums at all 4 wheels. They actually work quite well, but they’re drums. Don’t want to exercise them too much.
     
  26. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,036
    Location:
    high desert NM

    Display name:
    Billy
    Drum brakes were so much fun when wet.!!
     
  27. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    My 5.9, has engine braking, not exhaust, so probably not as effective, will have to see how well it works when ever I make it to the big hills, I just don't plan to be in a hurry, I have drums all around as well.

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  28. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    You may want to consider adding an exhaust brake if you’re going to take it through the west mountains much. You can go without it, but definitely will be happier with it.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  29. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,587
    Location:
    Tennessee

    Display name:
    CharlieD3
    Speaking of thinking about an RV...

    I THINK this is what results of nightmares about an RV....[​IMG]
     
    Zeldman and Ted like this.
  30. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    So on the subject of engine braking and steep grades, today was the steepest grade I’ve gone down with the RV - Teton pass at 10% grade both down and up. Going down, I had the RV in 1st gear and the exhaust brake on. Even with that, it was either just barely holding speed or in some cases accelerating slightly. There was a bad crash while we were on the road and it got shut down for an hour. Without the exhaust brake, I would’ve had to unhook the Land Rover and had Laurie drive that down separately.
     
  31. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    It’s also worth noting that going up at the 10% grade, I had to pull off for engine temperatures for a bit. But it was a fairly extreme day at 80+F. It’s the only time I’ve had to do that with the bus.
     
  32. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Jawjuh

    Display name:
    uHaveNoIdea
    General rule of thumb for descents that I used is to use brakes to get down about 10 mph below speed limit and ease off the brakes and let your the engine/exhaust break control the speed as you slowly accelerate up to about 5-10 above speed limit, then use brakes to slow back 10 below speed limit gradually. Lather, rinse, repeat... Gives time for the brakes to cool off while keeping a controllable speed.
     
  33. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    That wouldn’t work well in this bus :)
     
    TCABM likes this.
  34. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    Ted, do you feel the coolant system is working better with the electric fans vs the engine driven fans or worse, and in pulling, how long g did it take the engine to cool down the coolant temperature?

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  35. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    That was supposed to read, in pulling over

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  36. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    I didn’t do the electric fans for the engine, just the separate trans cooler with electric fans. There’s no question the transmission cools better now and the engine cools better since it isn’t absorbing the cooling load of the transmission. Next step will be the electric fans when I get home, and maybe some extra efforts for oil cooling.
     
  37. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,480
    Location:
    Kettering, OH

    Display name:
    Tim Myers
    We are heading to Crossvile TN tomorrow, 5 to 6% grade at Jelico, first time on any significant hills for the Journey, interesting to see how it does. Nothing like what you just drove through, but enough to get a feel for it.

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
  38. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Jawjuh

    Display name:
    uHaveNoIdea
    You mean the speed targets or the process? The process works pretty well across multiple platforms - overloaded perfectly legal 18-wheeler in the river hollers of Iowa, 26' loaded moving truck pulling Jeep on trailer in hills of eastern TN, overloaded gasser (no engine brake other than heavy downshifting) F-450 pulling 35' gooseneck on backroads of Iowa. BUT.... In all honestly, on the extensive list of things I have operated/driven, an RV has yet to make it onto the list (other than my f-i-l's 1970-something Class C which was a whole 'nother adventure).

    I wonder if there's a way to have active brakes on the Disco while towing? I'm sure you've already looked into that. :)
     
  39. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    28,227

    Display name:
    iFlyNothing
    You have more time driving semis than I do (since all of mine is in the Kenworth that I never had a trailer on it, and I got my CDL on YouTube). That’s the best comparison, having the giant drum brakes. This is about 30k lbs with the Rover, a small 7.2L engine with an exhaust brake (no jakes) and the 6-speed Allison (so not enough gears to really match the RPMs ideally. I don’t know if you ever drove the 18-wheelers in mountain country, but I’ll say that Iowa hills ain’t gonna do much like the 5-10% grades out here that go on for miles, and miles, and miles. Tennessee is close, but even then my experience with moving trucks is their brakes are similar to this with less total weight. This thing is heavy.

    Summary is it’s amazing how quickly this thing can accelerate downhill, with the exhaust brake on and it in gear, if I don’t have the gear selected correctly. If I mess up by one gear, the braking requires to downshift to the proper gear can be enough to smell brakes from this thing. That’s just one application to get down around 10-15 MPH required for a downshift.

    Jakes do better than the exhaust brake, and of course a properly sized engine (should be 10+L instead of this 7.2L) would help. A proper transmission with more gears would help. This 6-speed really doesn’t match the gears properly to speeds for all cases. I don’t think the technique you listed would result in success, unless you consider likely use of runaway ramps a success. ;)

    When you’re talking about a smaller, disc brake setup, in flatter country (which is basically everyplace except out here in the west) then yeah that works fine with your technique although my preference is still to use engine braking as much as possible, which is pretty successful.
     
  40. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Jawjuh

    Display name:
    uHaveNoIdea
    Yeah the semi's were on mostly flat ground, but we had some backroads down into river bottoms that we would have to go down into that were beyond the interstate limits of max grade. We had one section of 4-lane highway 30 (that actually had a ski slope next to it - we called it the "Boone bump") that went down into the Des Moines river bottom. I would start at the top at 50mph with all the Jake flipped on (we could toggle 2, 4, or 2+4, IIRC) and by the bottom I would be at 85 (this was a straight road with plenty of visibility, so no worries about getting fast). There was enough flat at the bottom that it would slow down to the limiter of 67mph and by the time I got to the top on the other end, I would have made it down through at least 6 gears and would be in low end of the split at 40ish mph. That one was kind of fun. The winding two-lane roads down into the same river's bottom ground were the not-fun ones.

    The F-450 was manual, so I could force it to wind up if I needed to. That helped. It would have been nice to have exhaust brakes on it, though. The second summer I did that job, we were doing preseason prep on the equipment and found that the trailer brakes on the goosenecks were completely seized (and had apparently been that way for a while). That helped explain some of the more 'exciting' experiences with that rig the summer before.

    But yeah... Sounds like the Magic School Bus isn't a very beefy rig, which makes sense. To keep it affordable, they build it for the everyday driver that doesn't know that it could be better - not the one that's going to take it over the Eisenhower pass flat-towing a heavy vehicle behind. ;)