Thinking About a Boat

[JHW]

Agreed....

I had not priced one in years.. They used to be cost effective...

They ain't now.......

http://www.holleyinjection.com/avenger-4bbl-550-400

Ps... I will stick to my 500 CFM 2bbl Holley in my plane.... it works PERFECTLY...

wow, between the junkyard parts and the AFI bits, I had about half that in mine. And it came already boat-tuned read to go. I took my ski on the initial test run.

 

[docmirror]

because it's easy to do and once done, it always works. Starting becomes just like a new car, turn the key and it starts and idles perfectly, hot or cold. Holeshot for pulling skiiers out of the water is improved. Saying a "properly tuned carb" runs as well is like saying that my antique oliver tractor will pull just as much as a new 50hp tractor, on a day that both happen to be running.

Our boat is recreation, I don't want to be tinkering and tuning. I want to turn the key and go. And that goes double when my wife or daughters are in the driver's seat. The whole family gets more enjoyment out of being on the water when there is no stress about whether or not they can get the boat started. That also means I get to ski more because they are more willing to drive.

Concerns about fuel injection being "complicated" are laughable. There are upteen companies that provide the wiring harness and ecm chip to take parts off a truck and install them onto your boat plug&play. As for your fuel pump concern, it's $30 from o'reilleys and you can re-use the merc fuel filter base. Return line easily tee's into the fuel fill hose which is readily accessible on every boat I've ever seen.

The other criticism I hear is that we'll lose top end speed going from the big 4-bbl carter to the smaller 2-bbl tbi. That's true, our boat lost about 6mph and now it barely gets into the 50's mph. It's not a race boat, it's family fun. 99% of the time it has the bimini top up which limits speed to ~35 anyway.

Here's what it looks like. Stone simple, really. Spend one weekend getting rid of the carb and never think about any of this stuff again.

again, no it isn't any effort. You just buy a boat chip that already has all that work done for you. They even offer a switch input to pick up the auto trans fast-idle for trolling (i didn't hook it up but it's there).

as for marine certifications, I know a bit about them as it used to be my day job. While the parts from the truck don't have any paperwork, i know it's inherently safer because I never have a pool of fuel in the intake manifold, unlike with the hard-starting carb. Getting rid of the fire hazard is another reason to get rid of the carb.

Ok, sounds like you're hooked up well. I've seen some kludges that scared the heck out of me. I never have carb trouble, but I know others have had it in the past. I use a marine version of the Holley 650 with annular discharge on boats, and I just get used to using them. Stone simple, never leaks, good flat performance curve, but EFI is fine if you have all the right bits.

 

[Henning]

So for my mission, given that I'd like a cabin with two independent sleeping areas - what would you suggest? Or should I just go back to looking at sailboats (which is still on the table, btw!)?

Depends on two things, how much do you want to spend on acquisition, and how much do you want to spend on operations? If you are looking for 2 cabins plus a common salon/galley, you're looking at at least 40' in a cruiser, 35' in a trawler. If you have more time the money look at old trawlers. Wood ones are a lot cheaper than glass.

 

[JHW]

Ok, sounds like you're hooked up well. I've seen some kludges that scared the heck out of me. I never have carb trouble, but I know others have had it in the past. I use a marine version of the Holley 650 with annular discharge on boats, and I just get used to using them. Stone simple, never leaks, good flat performance curve, but EFI is fine if you have all the right bits.

carb's are fine if you know how they work. But to put my wife or a 12 year old girl in the driver's seat, the more computer assistance, the better. You can't explain why it might be necessary to move the throttle as part of starting. The key is for starting. The throttle is for moving. The two shall not mix. And if it dies while idling, that might as well be the end of the day. I have to take off my ski and swim to the boat to restart it.

 

[Comanche flyer]

Carvers are great bang for the buck, we have a 34 convertible, but trailer for a 34 is a big deal I own a truck company so moving the boat is not and issue, salt vs fresh water is another big deal, salt water ruins the boat no mather how hard you try to keep up, after many boats in salt water I give up and put the carver in a fresh water lake

 

[Henning]

Carvers are great bang for the buck, we have a 34 convertible, but trailer for a 34 is a big deal I own a truck company so moving the boat is not and issue, salt vs fresh water is another big deal, salt water ruins the boat no mather how hard you try to keep up, after many boats in salt water I give up and put the carver in a fresh water lake

Salt water is not a problem when the boat is set up for salt water. Did you switch to magnesium anodes for fresh water?

 

[JHW]

one word of caution, a hard starting boat might be viewed by some as a benefit in the form of a barrier to entry. Once anyone can start the engine, there is no holding them back, especially with power steering. As this one likes to say "I have to go fast so I can see over the front better"

 

[N801BH]

one word of caution, a hard starting boat might be viewed by some as a benefit in the form of a barrier to entry. Once anyone can start the engine, there is no holding them back, especially with power steering. As this one likes to say "I have to go fast so I can see over the front better"

Kid looks to be in control,, She had her hands at 10 and 2 oclock before she started the left turn... Throttle is wide open and she doesn't look scared...

 

[Henning]

Kid looks to be in control,, She had her hands at 10 and 2 oclock before she started the left turn... Throttle is wide open and she doesn't look scared...

Kids usually do pretty good with boats. I had one owners' 9 year old grand daughter docking his 137'er. She was all over the engine room too. You're either born with a sense of motion and energy or aren't. If you are, life begins at WFO.

 

[JHW]

Kid looks to be in control,, She had her hands at 10 and 2 oclock before she started the left turn... Throttle is wide open and she doesn't look scared...

nothing scares that one, that's what worries me. At age 5 she taught herself how to use a screwdriver, to take off the speed limiter on the electric barbi jeep. Now at age 10 the wheels are still turning in that head. The other day in the airplane she asked me, "dad why do you pull back the condition lever after we're in the air ? it makes us go faster on the ground, would it help in the air too?"

 

[Henning]

nothing scares that one, that's what worries me. At age 5 she taught herself how to use a screwdriver, to take off the speed limiter on the electric barbi jeep. Now at age 10 the wheels are still turning in that head. The other day in the airplane she asked me, "dad why do you pull back the condition lever after we're in the air ? it makes us go faster on the ground, would it help in the air too?"

Buy her tools and a junkyard and watch magic happen.

 

[docmirror]

carb's are fine if you know how they work. But to put my wife or a 12 year old girl in the driver's seat, the more computer assistance, the better. You can't explain why it might be necessary to move the throttle as part of starting. The key is for starting. The throttle is for moving. The two shall not mix. And if it dies while idling, that might as well be the end of the day. I have to take off my ski and swim to the boat to restart it.

Well, I already said it's fine but I guess I need to reconfirm something here. If you have a boat, with a carb, and it's doing any of this stuff, something is wrong and it needs fixing. Carbs have been around for >140 years. Modern carbs on boats are about as solid as they come. No emission stuff, rare chance for vapor lock, and heavy duty float. If it dies while idling, something wrong with the idle up modulator. If you need to move it when starting(cold), the choke isn't working. If when hot, the choke or idle circuit isn't right.

Now - sigh, I hope you will take 'EFI is fine' for an answer.

 

[Henning]

Either system properly maintained is just fine. What EFI has done is take the tuning out of the equation for the average user. Back when cars had points and carbs, adjustment of both was required every 10,000 miles or so, more often to maintain optimum performance and efficiency especially in a variable climate. With everything now digital, it's not uncommon to hit 120,000 miles and have done no service to the engine beyond oil and filters. With digital control, all the tuning aspects are constantly adjusted to meet the needs and conditions at the moment, and does it several times a second.

 

[Ted]

nothing scares that one, that's what worries me. At age 5 she taught herself how to use a screwdriver, to take off the speed limiter on the electric barbi jeep. Now at age 10 the wheels are still turning in that head. The other day in the airplane she asked me, "dad why do you pull back the condition lever after we're in the air ? it makes us go faster on the ground, would it help in the air too?"

Sounds like where my son is heading. Fortunately I've got him with a good safety mindset. Always wears safety glasses and hearing protection when appropriate, and knows when it is appropriate. Reminds me when I forget. "Daddy you should be wearing safety glasses" and hands me a pair.

Better than his dad who had to learn about gravity the hard way a few times under an old Jaguar.

 

[flyingron]

Well, last weekend was boat weekend. My wife wanted to go out on the boat and then I realized I hadn't dealt with the ding in the keel from taking it out last year, so fixed that, touched up a few places the varnish needed work and went over to the community ramp and launched it.

Lots of water in the rear of the boat. WTF. Put it up on the lift and raise it slightly and start pulling up the deck boards. Fortunately, it's all coming in around the drive shaft stuffing box. Get the wrenches out and tighten it up and no more leak. Unbelievable how much that could leak...it was faster than the bilge pump could put it overboard.

 

[rbridges]

Possibly, if you are a typical SoCal boater, it will be fine. The typical SoCal boater takes their boat out once a year on 4th of July to see the fireworks, and maybe a couple times to Catalina. If you want to use the boat more though, those 510 Chevys get really thirsty. You burn Navajo fuel to do half the speed of a Champ. Cruising a 700+hp planing hull boat with gasoline engines is painful to the wallet at the best. If you want to sell it in a few years, you will find a dead SoCal market, similar to the one that allows you to buy one cheap now.

I know it's changing subjects, but they keep showing us pics of low water levels in southern california. It looks awful. Has it affected lake boating out west?

 

[Henning]

I know it's changing subjects, but they keep showing us pics of low water levels in southern california. It looks awful. Has it affected lake boating out west?

There isn't a lot of lake boating in CA, and what there was has definitely been affected.

 

[SoonerAviator]

because it's easy to do and once done, it always works. Starting becomes just like a new car, turn the key and it starts and idles perfectly, hot or cold. Holeshot for pulling skiiers out of the water is improved. Saying a "properly tuned carb" runs as well is like saying that my antique oliver tractor will pull just as much as a new 50hp tractor, on a day that both happen to be running.

I guess you've had a different experience with carb'd marine engines than I have. Outboards, I/O, inboards, jet skis . . . all of mine have had carburetors and all of them perform flawlessly. I don't spend any time tinkering with them at all, they just start, idle, and run as designed. I upgraded from a 2GC Rochester to the 4bbl Edelbrock on the 351w only because I was rebuilding a 1976 engine and went with a newer/larger carb, however after initial setup it has been working without touching it the past 2 years. Holeshot on my boat leaves nothing to be desired as it will almost pull my arms off on a deep water slalom start if the driver goes wide-open. I attribute most of that to the 4-blade prop though.

All I was saying, is that going full-out on a fuel injection system (TBI or no) in order to fix an apparent ignition problem just complicates things and adds more failure points. If hot/cold starting has been an issue for you, and FI solves it, then go for it. I just don't see the benefit if the previous carb'd design has been operating well.

 

[Henning]

I guess you've had a different experience with carb'd marine engines than I have. Outboards, I/O, inboards, jet skis . . . all of mine have had carburetors and all of them perform flawlessly. I don't spend any time tinkering with them at all, they just start, idle, and run as designed. I upgraded from a 2GC Rochester to the 4bbl Edelbrock on the 351w only because I was rebuilding a 1976 engine and went with a newer/larger carb, however after initial setup it has been working without touching it the past 2 years. Holeshot on my boat leaves nothing to be desired as it will almost pull my arms off on a deep water slalom start if the driver goes wide-open. I attribute most of that to the 4-blade prop though.

All I was saying, is that going full-out on a fuel injection system (TBI or no) in order to fix an apparent ignition problem just complicates things and adds more failure points. If hot/cold starting has been an issue for you, and FI solves it, then go for it. I just don't see the benefit if the previous carb'd design has been operating well.

Ahh, see, this is where you are failing to understand this thread; this is Ted. Ted will use any excuse to trick something out and add 50hp. If he doesn't already have Vortec heads, they'll creep in here as well. That's why I told him to just swap engines off the bat.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Either system properly maintained is just fine. What EFI has done is take the tuning out of the equation for the average user. Back when cars had points and carbs, adjustment of both was required every 10,000 miles or so, more often to maintain optimum performance and efficiency especially in a variable climate. With everything now digital, it's not uncommon to hit 120,000 miles and have done no service to the engine beyond oil and filters. With digital control, all the tuning aspects are constantly adjusted to meet the needs and conditions at the moment, and does it several times a second.

Agreed entirely. They both work, but I'm not swapping one for the other unless I have been having a lot of trouble keeping it operating. The ONLY time I would consider EFI being a hands-down better choice is if the vessel is being operated at a wide range of temperatures and/or elevations. If you run in 30-degrees and 100-degrees ambient temp, carbs can be a bit of a chore if chokes/idle mixtures are not adjusted, same as with high-elevation lakes.

Most of the lakes I run on are less than 1K' ASL, so no problem using set-it and forget-it on carbs.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Ahh, see, this is where you are failing to understand this thread; this is Ted. Ted will use any excuse to trick something out and add 50hp. If he doesn't already have Vortec heads, they'll creep in here as well. That's why I told him to just swap engines off the bat.

I feel like you should at least plant the idea in his head of swapping the Alpha out for a surface drive.

 

[Henning]

I feel like you should at least plant the idea in his head of swapping the Alpha out for a surface drive.

Not with that hull. You need the right hull form for Arneson or any of the surface drives to work properly. The Alpha drive will serve him fine in that boat, maybe go to a Bravo if he gets over 315hp. None of the surface drives are cheap either, and they have their own issues.

 

[Ted]

Ahh, see, this is where you are failing to understand this thread; this is Ted. Ted will use any excuse to trick something out and add 50hp. If he doesn't already have Vortec heads, they'll creep in here as well. That's why I told him to just swap engines off the bat.

And with that post, Henning has captured the essence of Ted.

When I first bought the thing I already had ideas for a 10:1 383 with MPEFI and DIS. Alternately, throw in a Duramax or PowerStroke to get a diesel out of it.

But reality is we spend most of our time trolling around right now and have no need for no power. By the time we do, we'll probably be thinking

 

[Bill]

But reality is we spend most of our time trolling around right now and have no need for no power.

My 21ft bow rider has the ity bity little 4.3mpi, and I usually cruise the lake at 3000rpm. At that setting the boat runs 28-30mph depending on load while (relatively) sipping gas and it's nice and quiet. I rarely have a need to go faster. Mo powah would just be wasted.

 

[Ted]

My 21ft bow rider has the ity bity little 4.3mpi, and I usually cruise the lake at 3000rpm. At that setting the boat runs 28-30mph depending on load while (relatively) sipping gas and it's nice and quiet. I rarely have a need to go faster. Mo powah would just be wasted.

We are mostly fast idle with some period at 3000-3500 RPM. That'll get us mid 20s mph. Like you, more power would be wasted. We're also not sking yet or tubing above trolling speed (my 2 year old sits in the tube with me).

 

[TedR3]

Sorry to hijack a little bit, but:

For some dumb reason I have the urge to buy a boat. I know nothing about them though. I did sail a little a long time ago.

I live in Philly and would keep it in the water on the Delaware River. I would just want to cruise around a little bit on the river. Put it on a trailer or in a warehouse in the winter.

Need to have a little cuddy cabin I think.

Does some this like this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1995-Four-Winns-SUNDOWNER--245-102515556

or this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2007-Bayliner-Discovery-192-Cuddy-Cabin-102346500

make sense?

How hard is to get the hang of docking one of these things? Is 24ft too big?

What will insurance run?

Maintenance budget? What's the small boat equivalent of needing an overhaul in a 172?


.

 

[Henning]

Sorry to hijack a little bit, but:

For some dumb reason I have the urge to buy a boat. I know nothing about them though. I did sail a little a long time ago.

I live in Philly and would keep it in the water on the Delaware River. I would just want to cruise around a little bit on the river. Put it on a trailer or in a warehouse in the winter.

Need to have a little cuddy cabin I think.

Does some this like this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1995-Four-Winns-SUNDOWNER--245-102515556

or this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2007-Bayliner-Discovery-192-Cuddy-Cabin-102346500

make sense?

How hard is to get the hang of docking one of these things? Is 24ft too big?

What will insurance run?

Maintenance budget? What's the small boat equivalent of needing an overhaul in a 172?


.

Personal boats, like personal aircraft, rarely make sense. Cruising the Delaware River and Bay, heading to Annapolis, any of that type of stuff is perfectly within the scope of that boat. Reality is, it doesn't take much, as long as the weather is good. Running at night with no radar on those waters though is something I would not relish. Maintenance budget is a crap shoot at best, figure it like a Cherokee 180 level cost, operations being somewhat higher per hour. I have no clue what it costs to insure something like that. Usually small boats are covered as tenders under the big boat policy. Typically if I write an insurance check, it's $250,000 or more.

 

[Ted]

Sorry to hijack a little bit, but:

For some dumb reason I have the urge to buy a boat. I know nothing about them though. I did sail a little a long time ago.

Not hijacking, that's what my point was when I started the thread.

We bought a 23' SeaRay with a cuddy cabin. We trailer it to the lake and back with an Avalanche 1500. It has the same Mercruiser 350 and had no previous boating experience.

As Henning said, MX is a crapshoot. We'll have had it a year next month, and had it out over 10 times, probably 20 hours total. All we've done has been little easy stuff. Batteries, prop, decided to redo the interior cushions. Engine and outdrive have been good so far.

I wouldn't say 25' is too much, but if you have a 1/2-ton truck, it won't tow well. Also getting on andoff the trailer solo will take some practice to be quick at. I like keeping it at the house for easy MX and project access.

If you think you'll want to do overnights on it, consider a mini-kitchen and head. Empty Gatorade bottles work as well.

It'll get around 3 MPG on plane, but be a fun way to get places. We're really glad we bought ours.

Others can say more about brands. We have really liked the SeaRay and I would consider another. Just attractive and well set up.

 

[weilke]

Does some this like this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1995-Four-Winns-SUNDOWNER--245-102515556

or this:

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2007-Bayliner-Discovery-192-Cuddy-Cabin-102346500

make sense?

It just illustrates where the dominant cost in owning a recreational boat comes from: Depreciation.

How hard is to get the hang of docking one of these things? Is 24ft too big?

Go to a public boat ramp first nice saturday in the spring and you would think it is rocket science. Bigger boats with twin-screws seem to be easier to dock, or maybe it is just that they have the more experienced skippers.

Maintenance budget? What's the small boat equivalent of needing an overhaul in a 172?

The equivalent is a repower because the engine corroded through or a failure of the I/O drive. In a 20 year old lower end boat this is not going to be economically viable and the boat either ends up at the back of the lot on some cinder-blocks (like 90% of them) or it goes to a dismantler where you pay good money to get rid of what is a big blob of commercial garbage.

Last year, a neighbor picked up a 10 year old 21ft outboard cuddy fishing boat out of an estate for $9000. The OB is low hours and runs well. Spent a bunch of money to re-do the cushions, fix some problems with the steering and re-do some of the paint. Now he has figured out that it wasn't the right boat to take wife and girls along and he is trying to sell it. The market price for a 10 year old boat that cost $9000 and has received 4k worth of work is still $9000.....

 

[Henning]

Not hijacking, that's what my point was when I started the thread.

We bought a 23' SeaRay with a cuddy cabin. We trailer it to the lake and back with an Avalanche 1500. It has the same Mercruiser 350 and had no previous boating experience.

As Henning said, MX is a crapshoot. We'll have had it a year next month, and had it out over 10 times, probably 20 hours total. All we've done has been little easy stuff. Batteries, prop, decided to redo the interior cushions. Engine and outdrive have been good so far.

I wouldn't say 25' is too much, but if you have a 1/2-ton truck, it won't tow well. Also getting on andoff the trailer solo will take some practice to be quick at. I like keeping it at the house for easy MX and project access.

If you think you'll want to do overnights on it, consider a mini-kitchen and head. Empty Gatorade bottles work as well.

It'll get around 3 MPG on plane, but be a fun way to get places. We're really glad we bought ours.

Others can say more about brands. We have really liked the SeaRay and I would consider another. Just attractive and well set up.

Galley... Four Winns is also a decent production boat. Personally I think Chaparelle has the best value in that size market segment.

Reality is if you are operating in protected waters, anything is fine. It's when you get into rougher water running that the details in design and quality of construction come to light.

 

[Ted]

Galley...

Aye, cap'n!

 

[Henning]

 

[Bill]

It's when you get into rougher water running that the details in design and quality of construction come to light.

Our lake can get so chopped up sometimes in the summer, it makes it really rough on boats with little deadrise. I swear, if I ever buy another lake runabout it will be a deep V with outboards.

Too many guys in 50ft express cruisers running in displacement mode at max hull speed. Rollers everywhere.

 

[kayoh190]

You guys are scaring me. Maybe I need to get back into thinking about an airplane.

I'm the worst when it comes to indecision about big purchases. I need to keep telling myself that the only thing worse than death is dying with money in the bank!

 

[Henning]

You guys are scaring me. Maybe I need to get back into thinking about an airplane.

I'm the worst when it comes to indecision about big purchases. I need to keep telling myself that the only thing worse than death is dying with money in the bank!

It's about the same, flying is a bit safer in general.

 

[Ted]

You guys are scaring me. Maybe I need to get back into thinking about an airplane.

I'm the worst when it comes to indecision about big purchases. I need to keep telling myself that the only thing worse than death is dying with money in the bank!

Do what I did. Buy a low-cost boat to try it out. See what you think. We bought ours such that if we didn't like it, we could easily sell it for what we paid. We liked it, so now we're putting more into it. Other option would be resell and upgrade.

 

[Ted]

(on another note, we're almost up to 1,000 posts for this thread - keep them coming! )

 

[SoonerAviator]

Sorry to hijack a little bit, but:

For some dumb reason I have the urge to buy a boat. I know nothing about them though. I did sail a little a long time ago.

I live in Philly and would keep it in the water on the Delaware River. I would just want to cruise around a little bit on the river. Put it on a trailer or in a warehouse in the winter.

Need to have a little cuddy cabin I think.

Definitely buy used. Take a look at something like a late-90's Formula 232. Mid-tier runabouts should be fine for your purpose (Chaparral, Bryant, Sea Ray), but you can find some used high-end runabouts (Cobalt, Chris Craft, Formula) for a good price as well. I wouldn't worry about 20' vs 23' vs 25', they all generally have one engine and will handle in the same manner around the dock/pier. Trailering weight will be the only concern if you are towing with a 1/2 ton truck if you get some of the heavier/longer boats, but most every 25'er or less will be no problem.

Overhaul costs aren't too bad in general for Inboard-Outboard setups. Usually it's the outdrive or the engine, not both. So a new reman engine is $2,500-3,500 plus install labor. Outdrives like a Mercruiser Alpha or Bravo can be had for $3-5K OEM, or as little as $1.5K for an aftermarket brand. Other than than, the rest of the expenses for most boats are just general maintenance and interior refurbishments.

Insurance generally isn't very expensive on something in that size range. However, your biggest expense is going to be the slip/dock fees while keeping it on the river. No idea what those run in your area, but I'd bet it's a few hundred per month, if not more. Trailering it is always a cheaper option, albeit a bit less convenient.

Just like with aircraft, we'd need to know a bit more about your mission. Is it just you and one or two others? Only day trips? Going outside of the river area to open water? Doing any fishing? Cuddy may be perfect, but it really just depends on your needs. There may be seats for 5-6 in a cuddy, but it gets cramped quickly with that many adults on board, and no one wants to sit in a dark cuddy with little air movement while it's 95-degrees outside!

 

[Henning]

Our lake can get so chopped up sometimes in the summer, it makes it really rough on boats with little deadrise. I swear, if I ever buy another lake runabout it will be a deep V with outboards.

Too many guys in 50ft express cruisers running in displacement mode at max hull speed. Rollers everywhere.

I had to drive a little 12' Jet RIB from Boca to Miami Beach Marina, talk about taking a beating, especially in the high speed zones of the ICW with the vertical concrete sea walls 200' apart bouncing back every wake from the last 30 boats each direction. Then I smoked through a "No Wake Zone" doing 50+ leaving a 1" ripple on the water. Cop came out of the mangroves and pulled me over. "Why were you going so fast through a no wake zone?" "Because if I go slower, I'd leave a bigger wake." "Fair enough." "You want me to slow down?" "No, just drive safe."

 

[asechrest]

I took my girlfriend and I on the jet ski out to a little island across the intracoastal over here in West Central FL on a bit of a blustery day a few weekends ago. It is clear that I need a real boat.