Things my instructor didn't teach me...

[TangoWhiskey]

I was reading chapter 2 of the new FAA IPG (Instrument Procedures Guide), which covers Departure procedures including ODPs and SIDs.

I noticed that a lot of the ODPs in mountainous areas involve either climbing over the airport in a left climbing turn until reaching a certain altitude, or involve tracking outbound on a radial or localizer course, then climbing in a hold 10DME away until reaching a safe altitude and then proceeding on course. This gets you above the hills before you get underway.

If I understand it correctly, if ATC "clears 1541C to Podunck Municipal, after departure fly heading 180 to intercept V143, SomewhereVOR, then as filed. Climb and maintain 8,000, expect 10,000 ten minutes after departure", they DON'T expect you to do exactly that if an ODP exists for the airfield. They will NOT tell you about any ODP, nor clear you to fly it, but they EXPECT you to do so before you start flying "heading 180 to intercept V143". Heads up time, as if you just took off and turned to heading 180 to intercept V143 without first flying the ODP, you might run into cumulo granite.

If an ODP exists, you fly that FIRST, THEN, when at a safe altitude, fly the rest of the clearance.

Anyway, it got me to thinking that, while I've flown holds, I have never CLIMBED or DESCENDED in a hold!! Yet many ODPs are based on doing just that, and my instructors have never had me do it--and I had good instructors. It adds an interesting twist to an an already busy procedure.

I fly with another pilot every 4th Wednesday of the month after work, to shoot approaches and critique each other... we're going to try this next week.

How many of you have actually practiced climbing in a hold, or did your instructors leave that out of primary training too? What else have you found happens in the real world that you weren't trained on? We're looking for challenging things to try while we fly simulated instruments...

Troy

 

[Michael]

If I recall...You dont have to accept a DP..You can write No DP in the remarks section if you want. You can only Accept it if you have the actual procedure onboard. (which you know).

Michael

 

[spiderweb]

How many of you have actually practiced climbing in a hold, or did your instructors leave that out of primary training too?

I've practiced climbing and descending in a hold. It is one of the best uses of the thing.

What else have you found happens in the real world that you weren't trained on? We're looking for challenging things to try while we fly simulated instruments...

Troy

Not much. I take so long and so many flights to get a rating, that I've experienced a whole lot by the time I'm ready for the test!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

If I recall...You dont have to accept a DP..You can write No DP in the remarks section if you want. You can only Accept it if you have the actual procedure onboard. (which you know).

Michael

Actually, they changed the term (again). The new IPG (and the new AIM, too) says there are two types of DPs (SIDs and ODPs).

One is for a structured way to enter the enroute environment (SIDs), and you can write "no SIDs" in the remarks section.

The other (ODPs) are Obstacle Departure Procedures, and are found in the front of the TPP (along with the alternate takeoff minimums) and specify how to stay out of the trees and rocks and towers.

It was the latter (ODPs) that I was referring to in my comment.

While ODPs are not mandatory, you can't write "No ODPs" in the Remarks section. You're just expected to either stay visually clear of the obstructions, develop your own way to stay clear, or follow the ODP. You won't be "cleared" to follow the ODP... you're expected to be familiar with it (and follow it as needed) from your preflight planning.

At least, that's how I understand what I read in chapter 2 of the new Instrument Procedures Guide. Please correct me if I got it wrong!

Troy

 

[gismo]

One is for a structured way to enter the enroute environment (SIDs), and you can write "no SIDs" in the remarks section.

The other (ODPs) are Obstacle Departure Procedures, and are found in the front of the TPP (along with the alternate takeoff minimums) and specify how to stay out of the trees and rocks and towers.

It was the latter (ODPs) that I was referring to in my comment.

While ODPs are not mandatory, you can't write "No ODPs" in the Remarks section. You're just expected to either stay visually clear of the obstructions, develop your own way to stay clear, or follow the ODP. You won't be "cleared" to follow the ODP... you're expected to be familiar with it (and follow it as needed) from your preflight planning.

At least, that's how I understand what I read in chapter 2 of the new Instrument Procedures Guide. Please correct me if I got it wrong!

Troy

Sounds right to me. I am surprised that they don't put some indication on the approach plates themselves indicating that an ODP exists at that airport and/or for that runway. Seems like that might prevent an accident some day.

 

[John J]

I have climbed and made descents in the holding pattern; I take a CFI along and request full approaches that includes a hold and descent. For departures if ATC is not swamped we request departures to a fix and climb in the hold to either a transition or cruise altitude. It is great practice for those of us who are not in high terrain areas where the ODP's are more common.

John J

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Troy:

If you don't fly in mountainous areas, this may be touched on in ground school, but not practiced in the aircraft (at least that was my experience).

You are right on; you are supposed to know and comply with the procedures. Many times, if radar is available, you are vectored and the DPs would be employed if the radio went out or if radar contact couldn't be established.

At San Diego, Gillespie (SEE) they have been alerting pilots to the procedure when they read you a clearance--guess some other folks weren't following it. The just say to fly the DP. At that airport when departing to the west (27), there is a procedure in the front of the terminal procedures book stating that one is to enter a right turn (about a 265) while climbing, then intercept the Mission Bay (MZB) 076 degree radial and track to to MZB to hold or climb. In fact, once you're up above about 2,000 feet So. Cal will get you on radar and vector you out. One time I either didn't climb fast enough or they were busy and I actually had to turn toward the VOR after climbing in a right turn. It's confusing until you understand why you're doing it. I'm trying to go east to Victor 66 and back to Texas. Departure runway is 27R. I have to turn while climbing from a heading of 270 around to the right to 165; then, I have to intercept the 076 radial which is a right turn again to 256 to go inbound. The procedure doesn't tell you what to do at MZB. If they pick you up on radar, you'd be vectored. If they don't an you lose radio contact, you'd have to climb as published up to clearance altitude, then depart on the airway.

The procedure states:

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS; Rwys 27L, 27R, CAT A, B 500-1 or standard with min. climb of 370' per NM to 900

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 9L, 9R, 27L, 27R, climbing right turn. Rwys 17, 35, climbing left turn. All aircraft climb via heading 165 degrees and MZB R-076 to MZB VORTAC.

Interesting huh?? Not only do I need a 500 foot ceiling and 1 mile of vis to depart, but I need a minimum climb of 370' per mile (not minute). At a 120 knot cruise climb, that's 740 feet per minute.

===================================================
Some procedures have you climb to a specified altitude over the airport. There is a catch in that you are expected to keep the minimum climb gradient from the departure end of the runway to the point you climb to in the hold. Some folks haven't understood this and just took off and went to the holding point without completing the climb over the airport. That's not good!!

I have had difficulty understanding one or two of these. Called Center and just clarified the procedure. They were very helpful in explaining why the procedure was constructed in the manner it was and in each case told me they thought it was confusing also.

Be careful out there!! If you don't understand a procedure: ask. Don't wait to the last minute to look at it. In the case of SEE, it would be nice to know the runway in use when you plan it out. I've drawn the procedure on my knee board more than once (when I first flew the procedure).


Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

Troy:


TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS; Rwys 27L, 27R, CAT A, B 500-1 or standard with min. climb of 370' per NM to 900

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 9L, 9R, 27L, 27R, climbing right turn. Rwys 17, 35, climbing left turn. All aircraft climb via heading 165 degrees and MZB R-076 to MZB VORTAC.

Interesting huh?? Not only do I need a 500 foot ceiling and 1 mile of vis to depart, but I need a minimum climb of 370' per mile (not minute). At a 120 knot cruise climb, that's 740 feet per minute.

I don't think the departure mins apply to you on a part 91 flight although you might want to stick to them since they are probably there for a reason.

Also if you are adhering the mins, that 370/mile or 500-1. If you can make 370/mile then standard mins apply. IIRC standard is 1 mile vis unless you have more than two engines.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I don't think the departure mins apply to you on a part 91 flight although you might want to stick to them since they are probably there for a reason.

Also if you are adhering the mins, that 370/mile or 500-1. If you can make 370/mile then standard mins apply. IIRC standard is 1 mile vis unless you have more than two engines.

======================================================

Thanks for the clarification Lance. Realize it's one or the other, but don't have the rate of climb; so, I wait for the ceiling in the A-36.

I do comply with the minimums even through part 91. Just haven't seen the need to push past what is pretty minimal anyway. There was a time, when younger and in the military, I did the zero/zero thing. Also practiced those under the hood. Landed under the hood a couple of times in rotary wing AC.

I've lost important instruments on departure more than once and wouldn't want to compound things more by not being able to come back to the field of departure or another very close by. Haven't lost anything critical on the departure roll out yet, but have lost avionics; HSI and auto pilot in the climb--not fun. The four greens were there and I just kept climbing!!!

I really don't sweat the departure if everything works fine, just worry about the compounding effect if something does break right after rotation or in the climb before I'm up to a safe altitude. I know a lot of folks fly comparitively low all the time, but I like to be at least at 7,000 when in IMC before comfortable: normally higher.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I am surprised that they don't put some indication on the approach plates themselves indicating that an ODP exists at that airport and/or for that runway. Seems like that might prevent an accident some day.

They do... it's that T inside a triangle... that means "there are either alternate takeoff minimums or an obstacle departure procedure for this airport..."; time to go look in the front of the book (if you're using NACO charts).

And, ODPs only exist for airports that have an IAP into the airport; if you're departing an airport that doesn't have an IAP, there won't be an ODP, even if there SHOULD be one; you'll have to make up your own by examining the sectional chart, talking to the locals, etc.

Troy

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Oops! I see where I posted the departure as 500 and 1 or 370 feet per mile and my comments below stated I need both. Didn't mean to do that. Thanks for pickin it up!!

Guess I don't pay attention to the 370 in the A-36 because I don't have it. Now if I was in that Baron (in my baritone voice), I'd be much more comfortable with a lower ceiling and better rate of climb!!

Dave

 

[gismo]

Guess I don't pay attention to the 370 in the A-36 because I don't have it. Now if I was in that Baron (in my baritone voice), I'd be much more comfortable with a lower ceiling and better rate of climb!!

At least until you consider the possibility of one engine quitting.

 

[gismo]

They do... it's that T inside a triangle... that means "there are either alternate takeoff minimums or an obstacle departure procedure for this airport..."; time to go look in the front of the book (if you're using NACO charts).

Yes but as you state, the 'T' indicates the presence of non-standard mins or an ODP. IMO the latter is far more significant to us part 91 types.

 

[jdwatson]

I have had difficulty understanding one or two of these. Called Center and just clarified the procedure. They were very helpful in explaining why the procedure was constructed in the manner it was and in each case told me they thought it was confusing also.

Dave: What was their explaination for the procedure ?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If you look at the surrounding terrain, there is a good sized hill/mountain straight ahead (off 27). You're in a valley and there are some high hills around. Much higher stuff to the west. So you take off and do a climbing right turn within a few miles of the airport to stay clear of the obstacles. Normally, while in the standard rate turn 'bout 2,000 feet So. Cal will get you on radar and vector you out. However, there have been days I had to get much higher before they picked me up. So, it's a safe manner in which to climb without vectors. If radar was out, Nordo, or any other reason where they can't vector you, it gives you a safe area in which to climb to that altitude to which you were cleared before proceeding west over the mountains.

It's a little confusing the first time to a flat lander, but after you look at the terrain and where radar coverage is, you see it's to get you up high enough for them to see or for you to be clear without radar coverage if they can't vector or talk to you.

Lot's of places in the mountains have these departure procedures. Palm Springs had several published proceedures when I flew out of there last weekend. Las Vegas, etc.

Did that help?

Dave

 

[BobS]

I've been held in a "stack" in real conditions twice; both times coming into White Plains, NY. Instructions were "...cleared direct NOBBI, hold as published at 5,000, expect further clearance at..."
After once or twice around it was "...descend 4,000," etc. It was always due to IFR arrivals into LGA, which back up traffic into the satellite airports.
Once I was held going into a non-towered airport where two of us were arriving IFR at once. I ended up being number 2, held until Number 1 cancelled on the ground. It ended up being about a 20 minute delay on a 70 minute flight. Flying a descending hold in IMC with any turbulence is pretty challenging. Worth practicing!

 

[grattonja]

I've been held in a "stack" in real conditions twice; both times coming into White Plains, NY. Instructions were "...cleared direct NOBBI, hold as published at 5,000, expect further clearance at..."
After once or twice around it was "...descend 4,000," etc. It was always due to IFR arrivals into LGA, which back up traffic into the satellite airports.
Once I was held going into a non-towered airport where two of us were arriving IFR at once. I ended up being number 2, held until Number 1 cancelled on the ground. It ended up being about a 20 minute delay on a 70 minute flight. Flying a descending hold in IMC with any turbulence is pretty challenging. Worth practicing!

That is amazing, that you have had the pleasure of holding in a stack. I was taught, during IR training, that these have gone the way of the dinosaur. Guess not.

Jim G

 

[wsuffa]

That is amazing, that you have had the pleasure of holding in a stack. I was taught, during IR training, that these have gone the way of the dinosaur. Guess not.

Jim G

I've done it once or twice, too. Satellite airport, several IFR arrivals at once, and no flow control.

 

[gismo]

I've done it once or twice, too. Satellite airport, several IFR arrivals at once, and no flow control.

If there was a reasonably close alternative, I'd consider diverting if there was more than one in line ahead of me. The wait could easily be 20 minutes per plane or worse if one of them forgets to cancel in a timely fashion.

 

[Bonanza]

I took off from Palm Springs the other day and was given the ODP which required climbing in the hold. I was looking forward to doing it as it would have been a first for me. As soon as I was changed over from Tower to Departure the controller said "Fly heading 090, Vectors for the climb".
Oh well, maybe another time.
I have been stacked in a hold for descent while waiting for IFR traffic ahead of me to terminate on the ground.
Stephen.

 

[Henning]

Anyway, it got me to thinking that, while I've flown holds, I have never CLIMBED or DESCENDED in a hold!! Yet many ODPs are based on doing just that, and my instructors have never had me do it--and I had good instructors. It adds an interesting twist to an an already busy procedure.

Troy

Yep it's a quite useful thing. I've done climbing holds to get out of mountain valleys, I've also flown into an area where I was told to expect a long hold because of weather and asked to hold at a higher altitude to save fuel (they also seam more amiable with 4 minute leg requests at higher altitudes), and then they give you lower and you just stage yourself down in the hold. I believe we started climbing/decending holds hour 2 of my IR training.

 

[wsuffa]

If there was a reasonably close alternative, I'd consider diverting if there was more than one in line ahead of me. The wait could easily be 20 minutes per plane or worse if one of them forgets to cancel in a timely fashion.

In this case it was a towered field. And they did give an EFC time.

The other choice was the big international airport, which might have taken even longer....