Therapy with no Diagnosis - Will Airlines know?

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rswitz

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rswitz
So I recently got my PPL. I've also got a current first class medical and I plan to get all my ratings through MEI and go to the regionals.

I have no current diagnosis but have been to therapists and psychiatrists in my early childhood. (I'm 21 now) When I first got my medical, I had to go see a doctor to write a letter for the FAA to prove I have no diagnosis. That worked, and I got my first class medical back and had no issue getting my PPL.

My question is, when it comes time to interview at the regionals, will they find out that I have sought therapy in my past? Will I need to disclose it? I'm not on any medication and have no diagnosis, but will consulting with a psychiatrist alone cause any problems for me?

My most recent therapy was many years ago, when I was 8 or 9 years old, so I can't imagine that coming up. But what If I seek therapy now for my own personal reasons? If I do not receive a diagnosis, is it safe to go and talk to a doctor and not risk my future airline career?

Thanks so much.
 
You sure didn't report any of this, did you....

For all those people to take care of you, unless it was all cash, they sure did give you a diagnosis (or you're delusional). Get the diagnosis codes from the offices, that they billed the insurance so they got paid.

For the third time today I had someone tell me that had Amphetamine salts for no diagnosis of ADD. That's a federal world of hurt. The first time you have anything happen, all the codes will be pulled. The databases are current from about 1996 on....right about the time this was going on.

What you need is a forensic psychiatrist's report, for which you pay $$, so that there is no need of a diagnosis that gets him paid.

Declare everything if/when you get the forensic psychiatrist's favorable finding.

Liars have no place on any flight deck.
 
Bruce, I get what you're saying about liars, but from reading some of these posts it appears that the FAA is in philosophical debate with the medical community.

If you think you need to see a therapist and they agree to bill insurance it automatically causes a ding on your FAA record!!! Friggin Stupid!
 
Ok, I did have a diagnosis but I received a letter from a Psychiatrist proving that it was a mis-diagnosis and that I am medically fit to be Pilot and get a medical. All I said in my original post was that I have no current diagnosis, which is absolutely true.

My past, which now seems null and void per this letter I got, obviously worked because I got my first class medical and PPL.

My real question is, will my past be an issue for the Airlines being that I have this letter and a current medical? My thinking is that since I got my PPL and medical it should not be a problem, but I don't know what the airlines will think.

And what if I seek therapy now and receive no diagnosis? If I am not on any medication and have no diagnosis, is the mere consultation with a Therapist enough to cause me problems?
 
If you don't mind me asking.... what's going on with ya at such a young age that makes seeking therapy (and walking the cliff edge of a damaging diagnosis) a possibility?

That question appears to be more to the root of the issue than figuring out how to game the FAA or future employer system.
 
Should a Pilot be prosecuted for the act of consulting with a therapist for personal, minor and unrelated issues to flying?

I am not trying to "game" the FAA or slip through the hiring system in any way. I'm only trying to exercise my right to seek my own private consultation without damaging my career and professional aspirations.

Since I don't have any medical disqualifications, diagnosis, prescribed medication, history of drug abuse, alcoholism, unlawful background, or anything that can prevent me from safely and proficiently completing flight training and performing my functions of flying an aircraft and doing my job, why should I feel I have to hide therapy?

What if I like therapy? Do I not have the freedom so seek my own personal consultation even if I have nothing to hide?
 
And lets not forget patient doctor confidentiality. They are not allowed to reveal anything about the patient or what he/she says unless they feel they are a threat to themselves or others. There a a few more exceptions involving legal matters.

So if the therapist (Doctor) feels it is safe to remain in confidence, wouldn't that in itself prove there is nothing to hide?

And why would therapy be "walking the cliff edge of a damaging diagnosis"? Since I have nothing to hide, it seems I am pretty far from the edge of the cliff.
 
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You must have been really good at dodgeball... you sure applied it to my question...

But your responses have got me thinking of ducks... as in walks and sounds....


But if what you're wanting is for a top pro to provide a layer of CYA to your career, then a free online forum isn't gonna do it.... you need to step up, spend the money on the forensic psych like you were advised (and one of the 20 that the FAA knows of and accepts what they say), get the negative report, and then spend the money on the right AME to guide the submission.

Telling a future employer and/or an FAA inspector, "...but this guy on an online discussion forum said..." isn't going to provide much traction...

So which would you like? A spade to continue digging your hole? The red rubber ball to keep dodging? Or Bruce's list of FAA acceptable pychs so you can gain a clean bill of health?
 
rswitz said:
And lets not forget patient doctor confidentiality. They are not allowed to reveal anything about the patient or what he/she says unless they feel they are a threat to themselves or others. There a a few more exceptions involving legal matters.

So if the therapist (Doctor) feels it is safe to remain in confidence, wouldn't that in itself prove there is nothing to hide?
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From what I have learned by LISTENING to what Bruce has explained, there is no attempt to break doctor/patient privilege going on.

But I'm still thinking there is a flock of ducks in this conversation....
 
I understand what you are saying. And just to be clear, I do currently have a clean bill of health. At this point, no hole has been dug. All my past medical history has been acknowledged and declared acceptable by the FAA.

However, if I decide to seek additional therapy, it seems it will only cause me problems.

As I do not have the money for a Forensic Psych and all associated legal costs, (turns out flight training is pretty expensive) and sure don't want to dig a hole, I think I'll just call it a day here.

Thanks for all the help and for not being confrontational for no reason.
 
You're welcome to stick around for other topics and conversations. We got a pretty diverse group and lot's to share. Very rare a day goes by that I don't learn something new or reinforce a key point that I ought to know more about.
 
Thanks, appreciate it. I always seem to get responses here. This forum is great. Unlike that other major aviation forum thats impossible to get posting privileges in.
 
rswitz said:
So I recently got my PPL. I've also got a current first class medical and I plan to get all my ratings through MEI and go to the regionals.

I have no current diagnosis but have been to therapists and psychiatrists in my early childhood. (I'm 21 now) When I first got my medical, I had to go see a doctor to write a letter for the FAA to prove I have no diagnosis. That worked, and I got my first class medical back and had no issue getting my PPL.

My question is, when it comes time to interview at the regionals, will they find out that I have sought therapy in my past? Will I need to disclose it? I'm not on any medication and have no diagnosis, but will consulting with a psychiatrist alone cause any problems for me?

My most recent therapy was many years ago, when I was 8 or 9 years old, so I can't imagine that coming up. But what If I seek therapy now for my own personal reasons? If I do not receive a diagnosis, is it safe to go and talk to a doctor and not risk my future airline career?

Thanks so much.
Click to expand...

Airlines only care if you have the required paperwork.
 
iHenning, are you saying that since I already have the medical, seeking therapy beyond this point will not endanger me?

Also, if I pay cash, and as to not report it with my insurance, can this even be detected by airlines? Will paying cash keep me under the radar?
 
rswitz said:
...
My real question is, will my past be an issue for the Airlines being that I have this letter and a current medical? My thinking is that since I got my PPL and medical it should not be a problem, but I don't know what the airlines will think.
Click to expand...

I'm going to assume that you reported all this when you applied for your medical, and the FAA is cool with it and you have a first or second class medical certificate.

In that case, I don't think the airlines can legally even ask for any medical details, certainly not until after they make an offer of employment.

And what if I seek therapy now and receive no diagnosis? If I am not on any medication and have no diagnosis, is the mere consultation with a Therapist enough to cause me problems?
Click to expand...

If you consult a medical professional you have to report it on your next medical exam. Period.

As far as what problems that could cause, I don't know, but I am sure it would be a good idea to consult a senior AME first if you want to work as professional pilot.
 
Ok, thanks. Is the AME the same doctor that issued me my first class medical?
 
And to the unregistered user here, are you serious about using a different last name for therapy? haha
 
rswitz said:
iHenning, are you saying that since I already have the medical, seeking therapy beyond this point will not endanger me?

Also, if I pay cash, and as to not report it with my insurance, can this even be detected by airlines? Will paying cash keep me under the radar?
Click to expand...

What I said was the Airlines won't care as long as you have your paperwork. Whether future therapy threatens your paperwork is undetermined at this point. If you pay cash there is no record to be traced. Leave your cell phone at home and NSA won't know where you were.
 
So rswitz you are the 4th person yesterday to say they were seen billed, paid for Rx with no diagnosis.

Where do you guys get this c_ap?

The question in 18(m) is have you ever in your life been diagnosed with....right or wrong it's an affidavit. Read 61.153(c). You don't qualify. Remember the two guys who fell asleep flying the NWA 737 to Minneapolis? They were revoked on 61.153(c).

If you have a letter that says the diagnosis was in error, best to vet the file now before questions are raised when you are 30, have a kid and you have a "deal". Then you lose your operator's certificates, too. Everything is in the healthcare databases....unless you have the very unusual parent who paid cash for everything.

You'll stumble for sure just trying to remember which version of the truth you told.
 
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Bruce, Bruce, take a deep breath. I think the OP revealed EVERYTHING to the FAA. No secretes. He jumped through the hoops to their satisfaction. The FAA is aware. Now his question was specifically about the airlines and what they might seek out. Not really a medical question but an employment question, IMO.
 
ronnieh said:
Bruce, Bruce, take a deep breath. I think the OP revealed EVERYTHING to the FAA. No secretes. He jumped through the hoops to their satisfaction. The FAA is aware. Now his question was specifically about the airlines and what they might seek out. Not really a medical question but an employment question, IMO.
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Ah. thank you, Ronnie.

to the OP:

The only question specific, on the employment questionnaire is "Do you posses a waiver?". So, no, and if you have had it vetted by FAA, and it is manifest by a "Letter of eligibility and warning" the answer is NO.

Unless an airline company has an even higher standard for medical performance (which they cannot sustain due to having to publish it...pertains to the discussion as to "already one DUI", another string), they would be in serious _hit for discriminating even if they would know.

My apologies to the OP. "Treated without diagnosis, so I answered 18 "no" just makes me want to vomit. I am so tired of that.
 
rswitz said:
And lets not forget patient doctor confidentiality. They are not allowed to reveal anything about the patient or what he/she says unless they feel they are a threat to themselves or others. There a a few more exceptions involving legal matters.

So if the therapist (Doctor) feels it is safe to remain in confidence, wouldn't that in itself prove there is nothing to hide?

And why would therapy be "walking the cliff edge of a damaging diagnosis"? Since I have nothing to hide, it seems I am pretty far from the edge of the cliff.
Click to expand...

Some organizations may have you sign a waiver allowing them access to your medical records.
 
rswitz said:
All my past medical history has been acknowledged and declared acceptable by the FAA.
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While I have no idea whether childhood therapy without significant clinical diagnosis will affect an airline's hiring decision a couple of decades later, the airlines will find out if there's anything you told the FAA but didn't disclose to them. If they find out you lied on your employment application, your chances of being hired are zero, and if you were already hired, you will be immediately terminated.

Does that answer your main question?

As for doctor/patient confidentiality, you waived that with respect to the FAA when you signed your FAA Form 8500-8, and you will do the same with respect to the airline when you sign the employment application.
 
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JimNtexas said:
In that case, I don't think the airlines can legally even ask for any medical details, certainly not until after they make an offer of employment.
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They absolutely can as part of the hiring process, since medical history is relevant to hiring airline pilots.
 
OP if you want to get counseling because you like to talk to someone now and then you can call the DFH65 counseling service I take cash, check, major credit cards and paypal and do not report anything to anyone. I am not a Dr. hold no certifications and do not guarantee you will like what I tell you.

I should also point out my most common "diagnosis" is "rub dirt in it and take a lap" followed by "stop sitting there, quit whining, put on your big boy pants and do something about it. :rofl:
 
you will be fine at the regionals. Just remember a interview is not a confessional..as long as you have a medical they will likely not ask a thing about it.
 
Dr Chien - quick question

(thanks for all your help here, BTW)

In one of the other threads here, you posted that some of these insurance databases were similar to a credit agency, in that they're kind of a clearinghouse for diagnosis codes people have received over the years.

That made me pause for a minute, because there are plenty of folks who have had incorrect information reported on their credit report.

It sounds like we can give agencies (such as the FAA) permission to go research what's been reported against us, but do WE have that ability to request our own information from these clearinghouses? Similar to pulling our own credit reports to verify the information on there is correct?

I'm wondering if it's possible for somebody to be diagnosed with something relatively minor, but because of a mistake somewhere, it gets entered into these databases as something more severe that would make it difficult to get a medical?

I pull my credit file once a year to check for any mistakes (and have found a few over the years). Never gave one thought to pulling my medical records, if that's even possible.
 
rswitz said:
...As I do not have the money for a Forensic Psych and all associated legal costs...
Click to expand...

OK...So how will you then afford to pay a therapist in future visits? If it's covered by an insurance plan, it's going to require issuing you a diagnosis.
 
LoneAspen said:
Dr Chien - quick question

(thanks for all your help here, BTW)

In one of the other threads here, you posted that some of these insurance databases were similar to a credit agency, in that they're kind of a clearinghouse for diagnosis codes people have received over the years.

That made me pause for a minute, because there are plenty of folks who have had incorrect information reported on their credit report.

It sounds like we can give agencies (such as the FAA) permission to go research what's been reported against us, but do WE have that ability to request our own information from these clearinghouses? Similar to pulling our own credit reports to verify the information on there is correct?

I'm wondering if it's possible for somebody to be diagnosed with something relatively minor, but because of a mistake somewhere, it gets entered into these databases as something more severe that would make it difficult to get a medical?

I pull my credit file once a year to check for any mistakes (and have found a few over the years). Never gave one thought to pulling my medical records, if that's even possible.
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Ah, and this is where it's a morass. there is no "free credit report.com requirement. It's the wild west.

I am about to certify a guy who passed out (hypoglycemia) due to lack of food water and bad judgement; in the ER a nurse entered all the psych meds from another patient. This was January. It wasn't until September that the hospital apologized and issue a correction. Now I can can get him back in the air.

A few years ago I had a supposedly cocaine addicted Chicago based bank president who underwent forensic psych eval and randoms to disprove the errant accusation by a Florida ER that he was cocaine addicted (a check box on the computer medical record. He figured it was faster to do it that way. BTW he's suing the pants of that hospital for defamation, and it looks like he's eventually going to win the big bucks.

The never change the record, they only issue a correction.

Sigh.
 
Ron Levy said:
They absolutely can as part of the hiring process, since medical history is relevant to hiring airline pilots.
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I'm 100% sure that they can't ask medical questions beyond asking to see your FAA medical certificate prior to making a job offer. The only exception I'm aware of is that it is legal in transportation related jobs to ask if the candidate has ever used illegal drugs or been treated for alcoholism.

In general it's not even legal to ask a candidate's age, employers can only ask if a candidate's age meets the legal requirements for the position.

I'd like to some reference that would allow them to access your personal medical records or your FAA medical file. That's certainly not part of PIRA.
 
And while Bruce is paying attention... I think the OPs concern is that if he continues talk therapy as an adult, because he likes it (and hey, preventive maintenance is maybe not a bad idea), will he have problems with his medical in the future?

My rephrasing of this situation would be something like "what CAN I go to a mental health professional for that won't mess up my medical?" Stress management?
 
TMetzinger said:
And while Bruce is paying attention... I think the OPs concern is that if he continues talk therapy as an adult, because he likes it (and hey, preventive maintenance is maybe not a bad idea), will he have problems with his medical in the future?

My rephrasing of this situation would be something like "what CAN I go to a mental health professional for that won't mess up my medical?" Stress management?
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One can go to talk therapy without meds for just about any reason and it's not going to mess up your medical unless you have a bozo therapist who uses the manic depressive code on your chart.

But the federal perspective is, "what is wrong that isn't transitory here...that keeps going on and on...the standard for health is safety, equal to normal health".

The companies only ask if you have a waiver (special issuance). And I just had a guy on an SI (declared at hiring) for alcohol, sponsored by yours truly, hired and now on active duty at GoJet. Well, its' a start.....
 
This sounds like an excellent opportunity for legislation, especially since health care reform is on the front burner these days. I suspect that the pilot population is too small to move the needle, but maybe a media narrative about how Johnny can't get a job because of an overeager childhood diagnosis would help the cause.

I find it interesting that insurance applications, security clearances, and the like often have sunset provisions after which the past is forgiven and forgotten for many things medical.

The fact that these medical codes are opaque, immutable, and forever is concerning.

bbchien said:
Ah, and this is where it's a morass. there is no "free credit report.com requirement. It's the wild west.

I am about to certify a guy who passed out (hypoglycemia) due to lack of food water and bad judgement; in the ER a nurse entered all the psych meds from another patient. This was January. It wasn't until September that the hospital apologized and issue a correction. Now I can can get him back in the air.

A few years ago I had a supposedly cocaine addicted Chicago based bank president who underwent forensic psych eval and randoms to disprove the errant accusation by a Florida ER that he was cocaine addicted (a check box on the computer medical record. He figured it was faster to do it that way. BTW he's suing the pants of that hospital for defamation, and it looks like he's eventually going to win the big bucks.

The never change the record, they only issue a correction.

Sigh.
Click to expand...
 
Actually the intent I think was to "nationalize" the medical record. It's a clever way to abridge the privacy laws.

Just like, "you can keep your health insurance policy"
 
Just a rhetorical comment:

Sometimes all of this "have you ever..." questioning just makes lying through omission a fact of life. I remember going in the service when they were required to ask have you ever used an illegal substance. The coaching was, well if you want to go in the military the answer has to be NO. We understand everyone experimented, but we are required to ask the question. Not surprisingly, everyone answered NO who wanted to go in. It was a ridiculous process to try and prove to the public that everyone in uniform has never touched a joint in their entire lives.

I'm not arguing that people should lie, just making the comment that it is a stupid process to eliminate or severely hinder someone from a profession because they saw a therapist when they were nine. The asking of those kinds of questions with the automatic exclusion or heavy financial burden makes lying a high percentage reality. As an example I was taking to a friend that is a retired airline pilot, he said no one put anything on their medical except current treatments and certainly not something from when they were a kid. Further, even an admission cleared by the FAA, doesn't free an employer from the liability associated with the knowledge that they hired a pilot with a "known history" of mental problems.

The system seems broken.
 
JimNtexas said:
I'm 100% sure that they can't ask medical questions beyond asking to see your FAA medical certificate prior to making a job offer. The only exception I'm aware of is that it is legal in transportation related jobs to ask if the candidate has ever used illegal drugs or been treated for alcoholism.

In general it's not even legal to ask a candidate's age, employers can only ask if a candidate's age meets the legal requirements for the position.

I'd like to some reference that would allow them to access your personal medical records or your FAA medical file. That's certainly not part of PIRA.
Click to expand...
Airline pilot hiring is exempt from all those rules -- and that's been tested in Federal court. Test case involved sub-20/20 uncorrected (but correctable) vision.
 
Ron Levy said:
Airline pilot hiring is exempt from all those rules -- and that's been tested in Federal court. Test case involved sub-20/20 uncorrected (but correctable) vision.
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Ron, can you cite that case? And was it before or after the FAA changed the vision requirements?

I was told by an AME that if you meet the vision standards for a 1st class medical which currently only requires correction to 20/20, then they couldn't hold your uncorrected vision against you.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I was told by an AME that if you meet the vision standards for a 1st class medical which currently only requires correction to 20/20, then they couldn't hold your uncorrected vision against you.
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I don't know about now, but in the past they HAVE used it as a screening tool. When I was in the market, there were a lot of companies that required 20/20 uncorrected vision to get hired.

They may not be able to advertize that now, but I bet that internally they will use it to cull some of the thousands and thousands of applications they get if they want.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't know about now, but in the past they HAVE used it as a screening tool. When I was in the market, there were a lot of companies that required 20/20 uncorrected vision to get hired.

They may not be able to advertize that now, but I bet that internally they will use it to cull some of the thousands and thousands of applications they get if they want.
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...and that is unspoken, just like "prior DUI". They ARE permitted to ask that under the "relevant to safety" exemption from the ADA, but most don't. You might get to the interview and be asked to talk about what to do when your captain is reported by the crew to be smelling of alcohol- and it all comes out.
 
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