The Turb's on Departures

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pstan

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My plate (posssibly out of date) for the Portland Oregon KPDX Minne One Rnav departure (Jepps 10-3A) has note number 4 stating "Turbojet aircraft only".

Wasn't the lear 28 or original DC9 the last turbojets produced?

Where can I determine exactly what aircraft constitutes a turbojet? Is "turbofan" a subset of "turbojet". Is "turbojet" a subset of "turbine"? Does the FAA state this somewhere?
 
pstan said:
My plate (posssibly out of date) for the Portland Oregon KPDX Minne One Rnav departure (Jepps 10-3A) has note number 4 stating "Turbojet aircraft only".

Wasn't the lear 28 or original DC9 the last turbojets produced?

Where can I determine exactly what aircraft constitutes a turbojet? Is "turbofan" a subset of "turbojet". Is "turbojet" a subset of "turbine"? Does the FAA state this somewhere?
Click to expand...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

TURBOJET AIRCRAFT− An aircraft having a jet
engine in which the energy of the jet operates a
turbine which in turn operates the air compressor.

TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT− An aircraft having a jet
engine in which the energy of the jet operates a
turbine which drives the propeller.


It has no entry of "turbofan".
 
I recently got assigned a departure procedure that said "Turboprop" aircraft only.

Called clearance back after I realized that and told them 'I'm not a turbo-prop and this departure has a note saying turbo-prop only'. His response was 'well you aren't going to be flying it anyway once you get airborne, clearance stays the same'. :incazzato:

Maybe I should have followed up on that one a bit more, but he was busy and didn't sound like negotiating.
 
Speed said:
I recently got assigned a departure procedure that said "Turboprop" aircraft only.

Called clearance back after I realized that and told them 'I'm not a turbo-prop and this departure has a note saying turbo-prop only'. His response was 'well you aren't going to be flying it anyway once you get airborne, clearance stays the same'. :incazzato:

Maybe I should have followed up on that one a bit more, but he was busy and didn't sound like negotiating.
Click to expand...

What was the procedure?
 
roncachamp said:
Where were you landing? What was your route and altitude?
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OAK, FL430, JONHH1 HOBES OAL MADN4. I can't look that far back (a month or so ago) in my flight plan history so I can't see what we filed.

You have me curious now...
 
Speed said:
I recently got assigned a departure procedure that said "Turboprop" aircraft only.

Called clearance back after I realized that and told them 'I'm not a turbo-prop and this departure has a note saying turbo-prop only'. His response was 'well you aren't going to be flying it anyway once you get airborne, clearance stays the same'. :incazzato:

Maybe I should have followed up on that one a bit more, but he was busy and didn't sound like negotiating.
Click to expand...

Speed said:
JONHH1.HOBES transition out of SDL. (and we weren't landing in the LAS terminal area either)
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Huh... Might have been a matter of changing procedures, because the current (NACO) JONHH1 says "Restricted to turbojet and turboprop aircraft only." Or maybe the Jepp plate says turboprop when it should say both?
 
Everskyward said:
Look at the HOBES transition. It says, "For turboprops landing Las Vegas terminal area only".

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1102/05651JONHH.PDF
Click to expand...

Oooooooh.

On about the 18th note down. ;)

I'm interested in hearing what was filed, too. With all the R-space around, I'm assuming that the clearance from HOBES to OAL was via J92? And if so, why wouldn't they simply assign the BTY transition? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oooooooh.

On about the 18th note down. ;)

I'm interested in hearing what was filed, too. With all the R-space around, I'm assuming that the clearance from HOBES to OAL was via J92? And if so, why wouldn't they simply assign the BTY transition? :dunno:
Click to expand...

You know, I just went into ARINC and stuck in a SDL to OAK plan to see what it shows, and guess what comes up as the 'frequently cleared' and 'optimized' routing options? Yup... The HOBES transition. So I'm embarrassed to say that's probably what I filed. :rolleyes2:

(as a comparison I did the same in fltplan.com, and it comes up with the BTY transition)

Still, shouldn't the system catch that and change it?
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
On about the 18th note down. ;)
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It's clearer on the Jepp chart which is what I looked at first but I was too lazy to do a screen capture so I linked to the NACO chart.

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Turbine engines with no props = Turbojet for any regulatory matters.
 
Speed said:
You know, I just went into ARINC and stuck in a SDL to OAK plan to see what it shows, and guess what comes up as the 'frequently cleared' and 'optimized' routing options? Yup... The HOBES transition. So I'm embarrassed to say that's probably what I filed. :rolleyes2:

(as a comparison I did the same in fltplan.com, and it comes up with the BTY transition)

Still, shouldn't the system catch that and change it?
Click to expand...

Well, "the system" did catch it. It was caught when you told clearance delivery; "I'm not a turbo-prop and this departure has a note saying turbo-prop only". What's the reason to restrict the HOBES transition to turboprops landing in the Las Vegas area? It's obviously not an aircraft performance issue. It's clear it's not an ATC issue or it wouldn't come up as a 'frequently cleared' and 'optimized' routing option. I concluded some time ago that the folks that design IFR procedures have little or no background in ATC or flying.
 
Speed said:
You know, I just went into ARINC and stuck in a SDL to OAK plan to see what it shows, and guess what comes up as the 'frequently cleared' and 'optimized' routing options? Yup... The HOBES transition. So I'm embarrassed to say that's probably what I filed. :rolleyes2:

(as a comparison I did the same in fltplan.com, and it comes up with the BTY transition)

Still, shouldn't the system catch that and change it?
Click to expand...
You would think their computers would catch it but you would also think that ARINC's computers wouldn't come up with it as a "frequently cleared and optimized routing" for your airplane. Being a pay service you would think they would do better than fltplan.com which is free.
 
Everskyward said:
You would think their computers would catch it but you would also think that ARINC's computers wouldn't come up with it as a "frequently cleared and optimized routing" for your airplane. Being a pay service you would think they would do better than fltplan.com which is free.
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I would think if the route comes up as a "frequently cleared and optimized routing" there's nothing for the ATC computer to catch.
 
roncachamp said:
I would think if the route comes up as a "frequently cleared and optimized routing" there's nothing for the ATC computer to catch.
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I would think that both ARINC's and ATC's computers would be able to determine whether an airplane is a piston, turboprop or turbojet from the type designator and not assign an inappropriate route but maybe the programs are not that sophisticated.
 
roncachamp said:
It's clear it's not an ATC issue or it wouldn't come up as a 'frequently cleared' and 'optimized' routing option. I concluded some time ago that the folks that design IFR procedures have little or no background in ATC or flying.
Click to expand...

While I obviously can't speak to why the restriction is in there, I will add that when SIDs are coordinated between AeroNav Products (the TERPS people) and ATC, ATC is the one that specifies any restrictions like this. If ATC says "this transition is for turboprops only", then that's what the TERPS specialist will put on the form. There's no TERPS reason not to, and since SIDs are primarily designed for ATC reasons anyway, there's no need for the TERPS specialist to even know the reason. Just that ATC wants it that way.

And most TERPS specialists in AeroNav Products have an ATC background. Generally military. Most of them don't, however, have a flying background. With many exceptions, of course.
 
Purely speculation... but.. would the "turboprop" or "turbojet" restriction be to batch "birds of a feather" into common corridors so that spacing issues (due to disparate speeds) would be less of an issue? That way, all the slower moving piston planes are on one track, fast moving jets are on another, and turboprops (with their intermediate speeds, relatively) are on their own as well.

I seem to remember that approaching DFW terminal airspace from the southeast there are 3 inbound paths.. one for jets, one for turboprops and one for all others...

And they dont merge into one, until much closer in - vectoring for downwind or base..
 
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