The Tailwheel

Flying_Nun

Flying_Nun

Line Up and Wait
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Flying_Nun
I'm on the verge of joining a tailwheel only club. I have no tailwheel experience and am wondering which aircraft would be the better trainer. They've got a 1952 Cessna 170 and 1970 Citabria. I'm leaning toward the Citabria.

Looking for some guidance from those with experience. Thanks.
 
170 makes the better TW trainer IMOH, the Citabria being a very timid 'tail dragon'.
 
Agree with Henning. Citabrias are fun, but the 170 will do a better job of keeping you honest, which is what you want in a T/W trainer IMO.

I think you will have an easier time transitioning from the 170 to a Citabria than vice versa.



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Six of one, half dozen the other. Conventional gear aircraft are complex, difficult monsters in legend only. A few hours in either one and you'll feel right at home.
 
Citabrias are pretty docile, you will learn more in a 170. However if your intent is to just rent the Citabria don't bother with the 170.
 
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How often has each been wrecked? Which is snakier on the ground? I rented a Citabria that had more time on it's back than on it's wheels and it was very challenging to handle on the ground. Fly in each and see what you think and talk with the instructors about your goals.
 
Great info. Thanks all.

I'll be meeting the chief CFI on Saturday and getting a chance to check out the planes. To my knowledge the Citabria hasn't been in any accidents in the 5 years I've been around the airport. The 170 is a new acquisition but these guys seem pretty thorough so doubt they would buy a plane that's had substantial damage. We shall see.

Looking forward to this adventure.
 
Why not do both? I would start in the Citabria just because it is more fun:D. Get comfortable in the front seat then get enough time rear seat time to be comfortable there.

Once you master the Citabria from both seats you will have no problem getting checked out in the 170.

Off topic, when I was instructing for the Ft. Knox Aero Klub in the early 70's I would take my students to Bowman on a Sunday afternoon to see what a busy airport was like. There would be 3 abreast on final, one for the pavement and one for the grass on either side. Fun times.
 
dillardrg said:
Why not do both? I would start in the Citabria just because it is more fun:D. Get comfortable in the front seat then get enough time rear seat time to be comfortable there.

Once you master the Citabria from both seats you will have no problem getting checked out in the 170.

Off topic, when I was instructing for the Ft. Knox Aero Klub in the early 70's I would take my students to Bowman on a Sunday afternoon to see what a busy airport was like. There would be 3 abreast on final, one for the pavement and one for the grass on either side. Fun times.
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Bowman's not too busy anymore :rofl:
 
True, not as busy as in the '70s. Still plenty of activity though. Sadly we don't use the grass except for laying out banners for the tow planes and the occasionnal gear up emergency landing.
 
dillardrg said:
Why not do both? I would start in the Citabria just because it is more fun:D. Get comfortable in the front seat then get enough time rear seat time to be comfortable there.

Once you master the Citabria from both seats you will have no problem getting checked out in the 170.

Off topic, when I was instructing for the Ft. Knox Aero Klub in the early 70's I would take my students to Bowman on a Sunday afternoon to see what a busy airport was like. There would be 3 abreast on final, one for the pavement and one for the grass on either side. Fun times.
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Of course do both, the question is really only 'which first' and that depends on pilot's primary mission, flying with the family or doing some aerobatics. The club has both for a reason, you need both. There is a 210hp IO 360 KB conversion that makes the 170 a pretty awesome performer.
 
jnmeade said:
How often has each been wrecked? Which is snakier on the ground? I rented a Citabria that had more time on it's back than on it's wheels and it was very challenging to handle on the ground. Fly in each and see what you think and talk with the instructors about your goals.
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Probably out of wheel alignment. Simple fix with grease pads and shims. But hardly anyone ever does it.
 
Flying_Nun said:
True, not as busy as in the '70s. Still plenty of activity though. Sadly we don't use the grass except for laying out banners for the tow planes and the occasionnal gear up emergency landing.
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Just realized you were based out of LOU. Are you thinking of joining the Bowman Eagles?
 
kgruber said:
Probably out of wheel alignment. Simple fix with grease pads and shims. But hardly anyone ever does it.
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First people have to accept that toe out on a tail dragged makes for self correcting excursions while toe in accelerates the the swing into a ground loop. Only then can you get their plane squared away.
 
If you master a Citabria, you can pretty much fly any tailwheel airplane. The 170 is a bit easier IMO.
 
Inverted said:
If you master a Citabria, you can pretty much fly any tailwheel airplane. The 170 is a bit easier IMO.
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Possibly depends on the model of Citabria.

Not that the 170 is difficult, but you are first person I have ever heard say the 170 is easier.


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The gear on the 170 to me is more forgiving than the spring gear Citabrias (havent flown an early model Citabria with the bungee gear). I find the metal flavor tailwheel planes similar to the Citabria (Luscombe, 140, 170 etc) Are a bit more stable. They are much easier to land IMO, and I found the 170 easier to teach students in.

I suppose I am basing this on the fact that people would fly our tailwheel aircraft to transition to other things like the Cub, T-6, Pitts, Great Lakes etc. The Citabria was better suited as a transition aircraft than the 170 would be.
 
Citabria rudder is so powerful though there is a lot more salvageable swing tolerance than a lot of other tail wheel planes.
 
See, I feel like that has more potential for a new tailwheel driver to induce a ground loop. The Citabria has much more rudder authority than the 170 I agree with you. Much better crosswind landing characteristics than the 170 too.

I can never remember somebody in the 170 having a real tough time getting used to the rudder dance to keep her on the centerline. I have seen quite a few in the Citabria that had gross overcorrecting problems due to the sensitivity of the rudder.

Master either one and you will be a great tailwheel pilot. And it is jut my opinion, but the Citabria is such an excellent tailwheel aircraft if you ever plan on flying higher performance tailwheel planes.
 
I don't have too much time in the 170 but quite a bit in the citabrias. My opinion is that the citabria is much easier to handle on the ground. The 170 is a bit heavier in the tail and has less rudder or at least less rudder feel along with mushier spring gear which slows down control. The citabria is quick to follow control inputs which makes it easier to handle. Its still pretty simple though. I've had tailwheel springs break on the citabria more than once and never had any problems getting the plane from touchdown to tie-down. In reality its probably good no matter which way you go. Fly the planes tiedown to tiedown and you'll be fine.

Frank
 
Personal opinion? If you're used to flying an airplane with a yoke, start with the -170. If you're used to flying an airplane with a stick, start with the Citabria. You have enough unfamiliar stuff to familiarize yourself with - may as well not add a totally new way to control the airplane, too.
 
WileyP said:
Personal opinion? If you're used to flying an airplane with a yoke, start with the -170. If you're used to flying an airplane with a stick, start with the Citabria. You have enough unfamiliar stuff to familiarize yourself with - may as well not add a totally new way to control the airplane, too.
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I'm kind of surprised by this comment. I started in a Champ and when I went from that to a 150 I never knew the difference.

Does stick or yoke make any difference for anyone else? Just curious.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Does stick or yoke make any difference for anyone else? Just curious.
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The only thing that makes a difference is the fact the the throttle is in the opposite hand that most low time pilots are used to. I wouldn't call it challenging, but it may take some adjustment for some pilots.

It never bothered me, but I started out flight simming with a stick and throttle in the left hand.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Does stick or yoke make any difference for anyone else? Just curious.
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It does to me, the stick adds exponentially to the fun factor.

In most cases transitioning to a tailwheel is done for the fun of it and the stick just adds to the experience.
 
While neither airplane is really hard to fly, I recommend the Citabria, partly because I like tandem seating and partly because I like a stick rather than a wheel. Visability is good in both, but maybe better in the Citabria. A good instructor can teach someone to be a fair tailwheel pilot in either machine.
 
I feel the difference between stick and yoke made a good deal of difference to me. Perhaps I was just way too intimidated by the fact that the training was in a tailwheel airplane, but my first lesson (a Champ) and second lesson (a Cub) were not very successful. A hundred or so hours later, a friend bought a Cessna 140 and had a key made for me. The same instructor that had given me my two earlier lessons checked me out in the -140 in less than an hour.

Later, a company I was instructing for bought a Citabria 7GCBC and the CCFI told me to go check myself out in it. Now with nearly 1,000 hours total time, I had no problem with it and soon became the go-to CFI for tailwheel sign-offs as that rule came into effect.
 
Yes, I do think the stick is more fun, but I was meaning to ask was if it was a difficult transition for anyone. My comment was toward the post where someone seemed to think it to be difficult.

I reluctantly went from the Champ to the Cub after 7 hours. The instructor decided not to insure it for student solo. I got in the 150 and really and truly never knew the difference as far as the stick vs. yoke went.

After I had been flying about 35 hours or something, I was at the airport chatting with my instructor when one of the young pilots at the airport asked my instructor if he could give him his spin training. They discussed it and the guy expressed that he was worried about flying a plane with a stick since he had never done so before.

At that point the instructor looked at me and asked "will he have any trouble going to a stick?" I said "no, you'll never know the difference." They went up and were in sight of the airport and I and several others sat there and watched them spin for awhile. They came back in and put the plane away. The guy was walking into the terminal and I asked him if the stick was any problem. He said "just like you said, I never knew the difference."
 
I flew an Evektor SportStar for a demo flight. The flight was two firsts for me: First time off of grass and first time flying a stick. I mentioned both to the instructor pilot and the gathered group of pilot hangers on. They laughed and said "Adjusting to grass will take about 30 seconds. The stick will take half that."

They were right. I never thought about the stick after taxi. I did steep turns and stalls to get a feel for the airplane and never gave it a second thought. I did continue to use my left hand for the stick because the throttle is in the center, so that may have an impact.

John
 
Final answer: From the Old School before private airplanes had nosewheels:

"Tailwheel" means also that the pilot in the aircraft sits in the front center seat with a "control stick" between the legs and seat where the center of balance is. More commonly referred to as "seat of the pants".
But those legs/feet connect to rudder pedals which control the center of the nose over which the pilot looks down the center of.

In this position, the pilot can detect and feel the most infinite movement of the nose away from the centerline, and more accurately feel the required infinitely small rudder pressures necessary to maintain that alignment, and the centering of the pilot around these controls "in the center", does make a difference, in my observed opinion.
 
Uhhh..'Old school' for wheels IS a tricycle/nose wheel configuration.
 
nosehair said:
Final answer: From the Old School before private airplanes had nosewheels:

"Tailwheel" means also that the pilot in the aircraft sits in the front center seat with a "control stick" between the legs and seat where the center of balance is. More commonly referred to as "seat of the pants".
But those legs/feet connect to rudder pedals which control the center of the nose over which the pilot looks down the center of.

In this position, the pilot can detect and feel the most infinite movement of the nose away from the centerline, and more accurately feel the required infinitely small rudder pressures necessary to maintain that alignment, and the centering of the pilot around these controls "in the center", does make a difference, in my observed opinion.
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When I flew from the right seat a couple months ago I found that I tended to end up on the right side of the runway...
 
Uhhh..'Old school' for wheels IS a tricycle/nose wheel configuration.
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I learned to fly in a cub. It's not that old-school. There's a reason it's called "conventional gear."
 
I think Henning was referring to the fact that this thing pre-dated the 'conventional gear' tailwheels....

Dn-41A-Curtiss-pusher.jpg
 
Well, it's not up to me. The chief instructor says to start in the Citabria. Which is fine by me. The 170 is in beautiful shape for a 60 year old plane.

As a side note, I got help the the president of the club put on one wing of the kit plane he and his wife are building. Good day.
 
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