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dmccormack said:
Notice I said a sledgehammer has more "knockdown power."

It does, and always will.

And if you don't think a sledgehammer can knock a person down, you haven't been in enough fights.
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What are you talking about? Since when were we talking anout knocking people down with heavy blunt objects? Of course a sledge hammer can knock someone down..what point are you trying to make?
 
jesse said:
What are you talking about? Since when were we talking anout knocking people down with heavy blunt objects? Of course a sledge hammer can knock someone down..what point are you trying to make?
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Hitting someone with a sledgehammer is comparable to taking their life with deadly force when your life is threatened.

I guess?
 
dmccormack said:
Which is fine, given the relatively low usefulness of this round.:rolleyes:
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dmccormack said:
Yeah, so?

A sledgehammer has much more knock down power than any current handgun round.

If I find .380 ACP ammo, I'll let you know.

I sure as heck don't need any.
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And..on Jan 20th 2009 you wrote:
dmccormack said:
Agreed (and I have large calibers as well)

There's been an endless gun store commando battle going on between proponents of different caliber combinations.

It's nauseating.

<SNIP>

* As soon as some gun expert exudes the words "knockdown power" -- run.
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So you went from saying caliber isn't that important (when defending your 9mm) to making fun of 380 blabbering about "knockdown power".

Seriously, wtf?
 
jesse said:
And..on Jan 20th 2009 you wrote:


So you went from saying caliber isn't that important (when defending your 9mm) to making fun of 380 blabbering about "knockdown power".

Seriously, wtf?
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Yes.. the .380 ACP is relatively underpowered round -- it has a lightweight bullet, has slow velocity, and is carried in a frame that could just as easily hold a 9mm or better.

That's not quite "making fun of."

I suppose if I had said, "Oh, that .380, it's such a puny girlie round!" then you could say I was "making fun of."

But I didn't.

I used "knockdown power" referring to a sledgehammer to make a point -- if you want to knock something down, use as big an object as you can swing, and ignore the expense and liabilities of carrying a handgun.
 
jesse said:
Exactly..You've nailed it. The government isn't going to take any drastic action against most things--instead--they slowly attack the edges.
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I don't understand this. How does the government not selling used shell casings at all approach a "slow attack on the edges of our rights"?
 
gkainz said:
my point with the quote was NOT intended to compare surplus brass with the holocaust. It was simply to point out that it seems to me, as a general public, we appear to have an increasing tendency to ignore the erosion of civil liberties in those areas that do not directly impact us (shooting), yet become indignant to those encroachments that do affect us (flying). Nothing more, nothing less.

For those I offended with my post, I apologize. It was not my intent.
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Greg,

The issue I took with the quote is the exact comparison you made.

The TSA, and the issues we all face with it, may be an appropriate application of the aforementioned quote.

The government deciding to no longer sell used brass doesn't infringe upon any right, nor is it an expansion or contraction of government power. It may be wasteful, it may be stupid, it may be shortsighted -- but it doesn't infringe, in any way, upon the rights and privileges we enjoy as US Citizens, under the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, or the laws of our land. That's what I take issue with.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
BTW, I'm not sure exactly which thread I should reply to, so I hope I'm not violating RoC by posting here...
 
smigaldi said:
I hit a possum on the head with a sledgehammer once. It just snarled at me.
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Was it a rubber sledgehammer? Or are you on the PUNY side of the He man hammer scale?

:rolleyes:

carnival3.jpg
 
Andrew, while the decision to destroy brass rather than allow it back into circulation does not directly impinge on the 2nd Amendment, I firmly believe it's the nibbling all around the objective, as I noted elsewhere.

I believe it's EXACTLY the same line of thinking as TSA requiring badges at airports served by commercial flights, or additional taxes hidden under the guise of "user fees" or "paying your fair share of costs" as a general aviation pilot. Neither of those approaches directly infringe upon our flying - "just go fly somewhere badging isn't required" they might say. Or, perhaps removing a source of reloadable brass casings from the supply chain could be compared to an additional tax on avgas? My bottom line is that there appears to be no logical reason for the destruction of the brass. That decision has been recinded, yet the underlying campaign continues, just as it appears to continue in the anti-GA movement (or is it really just an additional tax campaign?).

Edit: and I REALLY am trying to stay out of SZ discussions - really! But then, I'm not REALLY sure what constitutes SZ, as I see this latest direction in the thread a direct tie-in to what's happening in our aviation world, and think it's completely relevant to flying. However, if I am on the wrong side of the SZ topic line, I cease and desist.
 
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dmccormack said:
Yes.. the .380 ACP is relatively underpowered round -- it has a lightweight bullet, has slow velocity, and is carried in a frame that could just as easily hold a 9mm or better.
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I'd like to see you chamber my Ruger LCP in 9mm. I'd also like to see you conceal a sledge hammer.
 
dmccormack said:
Don't need to.

There are other means.
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Okayyy--well--of course there are...and everything you've said seems to make little sense. I just find it ironic that you come out swinging .380 talking about "knockdown power" crap which directly conflicts with your previous statements.
 
jesse said:
Okayyy--well--of course there are...and everything you've said seems to make little sense. I just find it ironic that you come out swinging .380 talking about "knockdown power" crap which directly conflicts with your previous statements.
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Methinks he dost protest too much

The only thing I suggested "swinging" was a sledge hammer.

I told you my thoughts on the .380. They are mere opinion, and if you chose to carry a .380 that you can shoot accurately, you're doing better than 98% of most handgun owners -- no matter what caliber they tote.

I haven't changed my views on "knockdown power" as an accurate measure of handgun capability -- which remains an incantation of gun-store commandos whose use of the phrase belies a misunderstanding of the purpose of handguns and the limits of projectiles.

Some weapons can and will "knock down" any human -- a 5 or 10 lb sledge will certainly do it -- so will a sword, a pike, a bayonet, a bullwhip, or hands.

And any handgun round will floor any person, given suitable placement of the lead.

The problem is few of us have Annie Oakley's skills -- especially in a street fight -- so a miss is more likely than a clean shot to the eye (whatever the "immediate stopping hit" place du jour is...).

So we are forced to choose a round that combines a compromise between projectile weight, velocity, platform portability, affordability, comfort, complexity, and suitability (no Desert Eagles in the Night Club, for example).

I chose the 9mm because it's widely available, has a proven track record, is small enough to carry many rounds, is shaped for easy loading (even when fouled), and is a caliber SigArms makes. I have total confidence in the Sig.

I lost confidence in the .40s lifespan, given a troubling history over time -- particularly in Glocks.

YMMV.
 
gkainz said:
Andrew, while the decision to destroy brass rather than allow it back into circulation does not directly impinge on the 2nd Amendment, I firmly believe it's the nibbling all around the objective, as I noted elsewhere.

I believe it's EXACTLY the same line of thinking as TSA requiring badges at airports served by commercial flights, or additional taxes hidden under the guise of "user fees" or "paying your fair share of costs" as a general aviation pilot. Neither of those approaches directly infringe upon our flying - "just go fly somewhere badging isn't required" they might say. Or, perhaps removing a source of reloadable brass casings from the supply chain could be compared to an additional tax on avgas? My bottom line is that there appears to be no logical reason for the destruction of the brass. That decision has been recinded, yet the underlying campaign continues, just as it appears to continue in the anti-GA movement (or is it really just an additional tax campaign?).
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I don't think those things are part of an anti-GA movement; they're merely hamhanded attempts at improving "security" (TSA crap) and enlisting the gov't to battle a competitor (user fees - remember, they were proposed by the airlines when the VLJs were predicted to darken the future skies like passenger pigeons and steal all the airline customers). The side effect is to screw GA but I don't think anyone is consciously trying to do so.
 
dmccormack said:
I lost confidence in the .40s lifespan, given a troubling history over time -- particularly in Glocks.
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Which was an engineering fault of Glock, not of the .40S&W round, and plenty of other gun manufacturers have produced some very nice .40 options.
 
dmccormack said:
I told you my thoughts on the .380. They are mere opinion, and if you chose to carry a .380 that you can shoot accurately, you're doing better than 98% of most handgun owners -- no matter what caliber they tote.
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They biggest problem with most of the 380s is the terrible sights and recoil from the very light frame.

My Ruger LCP has the following going against you:
1.) DAO - really heavy long trigger pull
2.) Worthless sights
3.) 200 ft-lbs of energy
4.) Light frame, heavy recoil

lcplaser.jpg


The advantage being the fact that you can put it in your pocket. Which means--you actually have it.

That said, in most situations, I can shoot it just as accurately as anything else. I did eventually put a Crimson Trace laser on it which I like a lot..and provides for one hell of an advantage. Amazing how much faster it can make you.
 
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Criminals like unarmed victoms.
 
jesse said:
dmccormack said:
I lost confidence in the .40s lifespan, given a troubling history over time -- particularly in Glocks.
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Which was an engineering fault of Glock, not of the .40S&W round, and plenty of other gun manufacturers have produced some very nice .40 options.
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Details? My carry weapon is a Glock 27, when I don't need the LCP's better concealability...
 
jmaynard said:
Details? My carry weapon is a Glock 27, when I don't need the LCP's better concealability...
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Glock makes a very fine pistol. The issues that have happened are few and far in between.

Generally a Glock Ka-Boom is caused by either excessive lead buildup in the barrel from their polygonal rifling or a casing blowing out (generally with .40S&W).

Glock does not fully support the .40S&W casing and a weakness can cause it to blow out. Springfield, for example, full supports the .40S&W casing and has had far less Kaboom issues.
 
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/plowshares-beaten-back-into-bullets.html


Quote
Something worked.

On Tuesday, March 17, Georgia Arms posted this message on their website:

Dear Loyal Customers,
Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms

End Quote
 
Bob Munden is quick (talk about an understatement there) but I think Jerry Miculak may have taken some of his records? Not sure - haven't researched it. Jerry goes for fastest shooter, while Bob Munden is fastest draw - I think there's a lot of overlap there

 
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