The Shootist Site

[astanley]

Sigh. If you were the guy reloading this ammo for a living I think you would feel that it did matter. The attitude that "it isn't me being screwed so I don't care" is one of our biggest problems. Aviation hurts from the same thing.

I don't think that is the point at all.

The point is, people will spend 50+ posts complaining about how the government has made some very stupid decision on something that, in the grand scheme of all things, makes not one iota of difference on any level except to someone who relies on cheap used military brass to reload. There is no compelling constiutional, safety, strategic, or otherwise important reason to get all up in a dander about this. It's stupid government policy, and should be reversed, but it also shouldn't cause an "internet uproar". The TSA is constitutional morass that bears debating.

Things that impact the safety of flight and unchecked government power (e.g. SFRA/FRZ/ADIZ/TFR), those are areas we need to discuss (especially as pilots) on a larger level, because these things do impact our larger rights, safety of flight, and our overall strategy for governing ourselves (as people and pilots alike)

We spend hours debating these mindless minutiae that bear no impact on our everyday wellbeing and life. The items that do, we ignore until four banks unload and we all start pointing fingers at each other. Why? Because, paradoxically, you attract more flies with saber rattling than you do actually fixing difficult problems.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

I really have nothing more to say to you. I simply don't understand how a pilot, whom enjoys a very rare right, doesn't feel that the rights of others are important.

Seriously? <slappy></slappy>

How in the heck are your rights, or any rights of the American people, violated by the government opting to mutilate or otherwise destroy spent brass? Even the most tortured interpretation of the Constitution and our laws couldn't bear that one out.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[dmccormack]

Dan - cool info, but I guess I was limiting my thought process to common hand-held center fire handgun/rifle calibers. I would think the reloading market might be pretty narrow in the 105mm and up calibers?

True... military handgun calibers are almost exclusively 9mm and .45.

The Grease Gun fired .45 (wildly inaccurate but made a lot of racket).

The brass for a 105 round is big -- wish I would have kept some of those, but they were accountable! I think they were reloaded.

Rifle rounds are .223, 7.62, and .50 cal.

Of course certain units have oddball calibers, but the overall NATO approach was common ammo across a variety of weapons (thus 7.62 was used in M60, M249, and sniper rifle)

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

You're proposing that your bank robbing method would be:
1) Pick up casings of same caliber from gun range
2) Enter bank
3) Shoot gun
4) Find casing
5) Drop fake casing
6) Go pry your bullet out of your victim

All while a bunch of people are watching and the SWAT team is coming through the front door? ...Seriously... That is the most unrealistic thing I've heard in some time.

First off, robbing a bank with force and guns is just retarded. Second off -- if you needed to use the gun you'd have no time to do any of the above and you'd have 300 witnesses.

Shoot your gun..pick up your casing..drop fake casing..and then go remove your bullet...christ...

Who said I'd be robbing banks? Who said I'd rob anyone in a violent manner under any circumstances except those which were favorable to me?

 

[Tom-D]

The M1 Abrams 120mm Main Gun uses a "caseless" round which is completely burned during firing.

See http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/120.htm for a good discussion.

I would expect some on this page to try to turn this political and take it to extremes but the topic was why destroy the brass that many reuse.

anyone reloading any of the stuff you mentioned?

 

[astanley]

I would expect some on this page to try to turn this political and take it to extremes but the topic was why destroy the brass that many reuse.

anyone reloading any of the stuff you mentioned?

Some maroon riding a desk got overzealous with .mil destruction rules?

Clearly one of the dumber ideas to come out of a procurement/salvage office in a long time.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[jesse]

Who said I'd be robbing banks

No one- my bad. You did say "robbing" and I tend to only read every few words so my brain added "bank".

Either way, if your going to go as far as removing the bullet after shooting someone you could have found a better way to do the job.

 

[Tom-D]

Here is a message for the homies

Actually Posted to Craig's List Personals...

To the Guy Who Tried to Mug Me in downtown Savannah the night before last.
Date: 2009-03-23, 3:43 AM EST

I was the guy with the black Burberry jacket that you demanded I hand over, shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my
girlfriend. You also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I hope you somehow come across this message. I'd like to apologize.
I didn't expect you to crap in your pants when I drew my pistol after you took my jacket. Truth is, I was wearing the jacket for a reason that evening, and it wasn't that cold outside. You see, my girlfriend had just bought me that Kimber Model 1911 .45 A CP pistol for Christmas, and we had just picked up a shoulder holster for it that evening.
Beautiful pistol, eh?

It's a very intimidating weapon when pointed at your head, isn't it? I know it probably wasn't a great deal of fun
walking back to wherever you'd come from with that brown sludge flopping about in your pants. I'm sure it was even worse since you also ended up leaving your shoes, cellphone, and wallet with me. I couldn't have you calling up any of your buddies to come help you try to mug us again. I took the liberty of calling your mother, or "Momma" as you had her listed in your cell, and explaining to her your situation. I also bought myself and four other people in the gas station this morning a tank full of gas on your credit card. The guy with the big motor home took 150 gallons and was extremely grateful!
I gave your shoes to one of the homeless guys over by Vinnie Van Go Go's, along with all of the cash in your wallet.
I threw the wallet in a fancy pink "pimp mobile" parked at the curb after I broke the windshield and side window out and keyed the drivers side. I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cellphone. They'll be on your bill in case you'd like to know which ones. Ma Bell just shut down the line, and I've only had the phone for a little over a day now, so
I don't know what's going on with that. I hope they haven't permanently cut off your service.

I could only get in two threatening phone calls to the D A 's office and one to the FBI with it. The FBI guy was really ****ed and we had a long chat (I guess while he traced the number). I'd also like to apologize for not killing you and instead
making you walk back home humiliated. I'm hoping that you'll reconsider your choice of path in life. Next time you might not be so lucky..
Alex
P.S. Remember this motto..... an armed society is a polite society!

 

[ScottM]

http://www.snopes.com/crime/justice/mugger.asp

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

No one- my bad. You did say "robbing" and I tend to only read every few words so my brain added "bank".

Either way, if your going to go as far as removing the bullet after shooting someone you could have found a better way to do the job.

Haha, I figured that was what had happened!

It's a fair point - it's just a thought I had one day when I saw a whole bunch of empties lying about the ground at a range. I thought, "if I was a smart crook and really wanted to throw at least a little misdirection into the investigation, why not grab a few of these that obviously came from the same gun, and drop them at the scene?"

It would at least give me a heck of an impeachment argument at trial - "what do you mean your science works? You say the bullets came from my gun, but the casings didn't? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, does this sound reliable to you?"

I guess I just think like a crook?

 

[wbarnhill]

Haha, I figured that was what had happened!

It's a fair point - it's just a thought I had one day when I saw a whole bunch of empties lying about the ground at a range. I thought, "if I was a smart crook and really wanted to throw at least a little misdirection into the investigation, why not grab a few of these that obviously came from the same gun, and drop them at the scene?"

It would at least give me a heck of an impeachment argument at trial - "what do you mean your science works? You say the bullets came from my gun, but the casings didn't? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, does this sound reliable to you?"

I guess I just think like a crook?

Not to mention prints

 

[dmccormack]

I would expect some on this page to try to turn this political and take it to extremes but the topic was why destroy the brass that many reuse.

anyone reloading any of the stuff you mentioned?

We collected all brass on all ranges.

I'm fairly certain the 105 brass was reloaded.

I don't know what happened to the 9mm, .45, or .50 brass.

 

[flyersfan31]

I think application of Niemöller's quote is wholly inappropriate here. Niemöller was talking about the extermination of a people; a fundamental abrogation of rights by the state.

The subject at hand is the military destroying re-usable brass before selling it to people who could not use the now destroyed brass.

While Niemöller's quote is one of many moral and ethical reflections to keep in mind; applying here is disingenuous given the context (destroying military brass) and the total lack of applicability (rights are not being violated, the government isn't wantonly expanding it's power to the detriment of the People).

What makes this so difficult is that the decision by .mil is basically indefenseable. It's illogical and stupid. But to treat it in any other way but a stupid and illogical decision is inappropriate.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Thanks again.

 

[poadeleted20]

Reminder -- this is not the Spin Zone. The MC is reviewing the entire thread right now. We're leaving the thread open while we do, but please do not post anything more that should be in SZ rather than Hangar Talk, even in response to someone else.

 

[SkyHog]

Guns and Butter.

 

[SCCutler]

Crimson and Clover?

 

[ScottM]

Guns and Butter.

Crimson and Clover?

Martin and Lewis?

 

[astanley]

Martin and Lewis?

Amos and Andy?

 

[flyersfan31]

Itchy and Scratchy.

Worker and Parasite.

 

[ScottM]

Pride and Prejudice

Tom and Jerry

 

[ScottM]

Itchy and Scratchy.

Johnson and Masters?

 

[wbarnhill]

Pride and Prejudice

and Zombies!

 

[astanley]

Ren and Stimpy?

Calvin and Hobbes?

 

[ReverendSlappy]

More or less.

 

[ScottM]

Pinky and the Brain

 

[gkainz]

my point with the quote was NOT intended to compare surplus brass with the holocaust. It was simply to point out that it seems to me, as a general public, we appear to have an increasing tendency to ignore the erosion of civil liberties in those areas that do not directly impact us (shooting), yet become indignant to those encroachments that do affect us (flying). Nothing more, nothing less.

For those I offended with my post, I apologize. It was not my intent.

 

[jesse]

my point with the quote was NOT intended to compare surplus brass with the holocaust. It was simply to point out that it seems to me, as a general public, we appear to have an increasing tendency to ignore the erosion of civil liberties in those areas that do not directly impact us, yet become indignant to those encroachments that do affect us. Nothing more, nothing less.

For those I offended with my post, I apologize. It was not my intent.

Indeed--and this is a case--where those that aren't affected by it really don't understand.

Really--it doesn't matter though--because the government reverted their stupid decision which was *most* likely the result of someone just taking destruction rules too far. Problem is, people are ultra-paranoid about gun rights right now and the extreme ammunition shortage.

Some calibers are extremely difficult to find and have been for the entire year, like 380ACP for example.

 

[dmccormack]

Some calibers are extremely difficult to find and have been for the entire year, like 380ACP for example.

Which is fine, given the relatively low usefulness of this round.

One of the reasons I standardized all firearms (9mm for pistols, .30-06 for rifles, and 12g for shotguns) is the availability of these very popular rounds.

 

[jmaynard]

One of the reasons I standardized all firearms (9mm for pistols,

Which is a shame, given the relatively low usefulness of this round.

:smile:

I'm not a fan of .380 ACP, either, as such - but if it's a choice between the pistol with the good ammo on the shelf at home and the pistol with the wimpy ammo that I have with me, guess which one I'll pick?

 

[TMetzinger]

Or civil rights, then maybe we would not be saddled with the idiocy we see coming out of the TSA!

Hmm... Keep and bear arms IS a civil right.

 

[ScottM]

Hmm... Keep and bear arms IS a civil right.

And your point? We are talking about the sale of spent brass not the right to bear arms. Last I checked the 2nd Amendment made no mention of how the military is supposed to handle its garbage.

 

[jesse]

Which is fine, given the relatively low usefulness of this round.

Bah, shot placement, and the ability to actually have it with you. A 45ACP at home isn't going to do you much good.

 

[flyersfan31]

And your point? We are talking about the sale of spent brass not the right to bear arms. Last I checked the 2nd Amendment made no mention of how the military is supposed to handle its garbage.

Exactly.

When was the ability to purchase spent shell casings from the gov enshrined as a civil liberty??????

If the gun lobby keeps yelling WOLF, nobody will listen when it really matters.

 

[gkainz]

And your point? We are talking about the sale of spent brass not the right to bear arms. Last I checked the 2nd Amendment made no mention of how the military is supposed to handle its garbage.

again, the slow, steady, continual erosion around the edges. Destroy the brass and not allow it back into the public system. Raise taxes on ammo, legislate absurd requirements that don't help, don't work and are very expensive (microcoding, tags in powder, microstamping, electronic locks, or airport badges for pilots only good at one airport) all quiet subterfuge while really hiding the main intent - be it guns or taxes on general aviation.

and you're right, the 2nd amendment makes no mention of disposing of used brass.

Nor does the constitution guarantee our right to fly airplanes, either (or is a privilege?).

 

[dmccormack]

Bah, shot placement, and the ability to actually have it with you. A 45ACP at home isn't going to do you much good.

Yeah, so?

A sledgehammer has much more knock down power than any current handgun round.

If I find .380 ACP ammo, I'll let you know.

I sure as heck don't need any.

 

[jesse]

Yeah, so?

A sledgehammer has much more knock down power than any current handgun round.

If I find .380 ACP ammo, I'll let you know.

I sure as heck don't need any.

"Knockdown" power is pretty much a joke along with all the other caliber debates out there. There are folks out there that will argue your 9mm is worthless and ineffective the same that 9 folks will diss 380..and so on..and in the end..the most important thing is having it and actually being able to place an accurate shot.

I prefer my .40 over a .380 but carrying a .40 isn't always easy.

 

[jesse]

again, the slow, steady, continual erosion around the edges. Destroy the brass and not allow it back into the public system. Raise taxes on ammo, legislate absurd requirements that don't help, don't work and are very expensive (microcoding, tags in powder, microstamping, electronic locks, or airport badges for pilots only good at one airport) all quiet subterfuge while really hiding the main intent - be it guns or taxes on general aviation.

and you're right, the 2nd amendment makes no mention of disposing of used brass.

Nor does the constitution guarantee our right to fly airplanes, either (or is a privilege?).

Exactly..You've nailed it. The government isn't going to take any drastic action against most things--instead--they slowly attack the edges.

 

[jesse]

If I find .380 ACP ammo, I'll let you know.

It reaches beyond 380. 9mm, 45, etc all are not easy to find. 380 is very difficult.. 9mm can be found with some patience generally.

Everything is basically dry and has been for about six months. Rifle ammo and shotgun is still easily available though.

 

[dmccormack]

It reaches beyond 380. 9mm, 45, etc all are not easy to find. 380 is very difficult.. 9mm can be found with some patience generally.

Everything is basically dry and has been for about six months. Rifle ammo and shotgun is still easily available though.

That was somewhat the case here last year -- not now.

Must be a midwest thing....

 

[dmccormack]

"Knockdown" power is pretty much a joke along with all the other caliber debates out there. There are folks out there that will argue your 9mm is worthless and ineffective the same that 9 folks will diss 380..and so on..and in the end..the most important thing is having it and actually being able to place an accurate shot.

I prefer my .40 over a .380 but carrying a .40 isn't always easy.

Notice I said a sledgehammer has more "knockdown power."

It does, and always will.

And if you don't think a sledgehammer can knock a person down, you haven't been in enough fights.