The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science

Haha, exactly, Scott.
"California's gonna go under in five years!"
...
...
"Ten years!"
...
"It's a-comin' soon, we swear!"
 
Hahaha. Of course you didn't. Instead, you have a statistically significant group of climate scientist friends and you trust them completely.

I've spent my whole professional life in scientific endeavor. I wouldn't claim to have technical expertise in climate change, I don't (other than what I see with my eyes, which is a lot and was predicted by friends many years ago). However, I know many, many scientists. Indeed I know enough to categorically state that your allegations, in addition to being unfounded, are almost certainly incorrect.

My important articles, your important friends!

Not important, just the ones whose work is under scrutiny. And yes, that does give me some special insight.

Also, you just know in your heart of hearts that the peer review process is infallible, and no one group of scientists can wield enough power over the rest to keep dissenting viewpoints out of the academic and governmental literature. (Even though, Lord knows, they try!) Excellent points, all.

I have personally overturned results thought to be dogmatic and found in textbooks.

Plus, you bring up a scientist, that naughty rascal, who falsified data and was found to have committed fraud. Then he lost his job! Sweet! The process works!

Yes, it does. Scientists found to have falsified data are ineligible for funding, and their work is unlikely to be accepted. We only have each other's word that what we publish is true. Loose that trust, and there is nothing left.

Of course, the climate scientist's findings and allegations aren't exactly reproducible, now are they, Steingar? Saying, for example, "I cloned a bald eagle" is different than saying, "In an indeterminate number of years from now, bad things will happen unless you do exactly as I say."

Actually, they are. In each you use data to test a hypothesis, and make predictions based on your conclusions. For example, if you cloned a bald eagle, the data would be the biometrics to say that the animal was indeed cloned. Your prediction would be that the eagle would be developmentally identical to its genetic donor except where environmental conditions affected its developmental program. If your prediction didn't come true (which is hasn't for cloned animals) you would use your observations to develop novel hypotheses about how the cloning process affects development.

Climate scientists have done little else. They've used their observations to make predictions, the bulk of which have come true.

See, the former is a directly testable claim, while the latter is a prediction or theory based on statistics.

All interpretation is based on statistics. And indeed, the climatologists have made very testable claims, many of which have been right.

The prediction has no merit whatsoever until proven.

What level of proof? At what point do you say, "O.K., the climate scientists have proven their point."

Climate science in it's present, invasive form is crap because their area of inquiry is too huge and has far too many variables, not too mention data collection techniques that have serious problems. (Maybe I'm not qualified, what with my lack of super sweet and all-knowing plus trustworthy friends who are scientists, to make that claim.)

If you can specify which variables are not being accounted for and which data collection methods are specious, you might have something. However, keep in mind that there are always unknown variables in any kind of research. If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research anyway.

So what we have are a group of dodgy scientists with nothing to lose from crappy predictions (because their predictions are set far enough out that it doesn't matter) and an imperative to trust them.
You trust away, sir. I think they're totally full of malarkey.

You are fully entitled to your opinion, and I hold no one in the slightest bit less regard because of it. But you made very specific allegations of scientific misconduct against an entire branch of scientific endeavor. I asked you for the basis for these accusations, and the best you can do is some E-mails. You don't understand the nature of their data acquisition, the nature of its dissemination, or the sociology of scientists as a group. There is no conspiracy. No one is forced to make conclusions that go one way or another. Data simply is.
 
What level of proof? At what point do you say, "O.K., the climate scientists have proven their point."

When the UN/IPCC and their maps of disaster are correct. After Katrina, they published a 2010 map of disaster showing the displacement of 50 million people cause by raising sea level caused by AGW. I don't recall 50 million people being displaced last year, due to rising sea levels, but I might have missed it.

This was "guaranteed" to happen based on experts and their infallible data. Still waiting for all these predictions to come true.

future_timeline.png
 
And wasn't 2006 supposed to be a worse hurricane year than 2005? I remember that prediction from the climate experts coming true as well, oh wait, it didn't.
 
And wasn't 2006 supposed to be a worse hurricane year than 2005? I remember that prediction from the climate experts coming true as well, oh wait, it didn't.

Finally, a good point and one based in something other than paranoia.

The cloning example gives a good analogy. When Dolly the sheep was cloned, the prediction was that she would resemble her genetic mother, with whom she shared all her genes. And that was true in the beginning. Score one for the hypothesis.

However, Dolly began having medical troubles that never affected her mother, and eventually had to be euthanized. Thus the hypothesis was only partially correct, obviously there were unknown variables that the researchers failed to account for in their experiment.

The climate change predictions can be treated similarly. Many have borne fruit. Glaciers were predicted to recede, and they are doing so world wide. Arctic ice was predicted to shrink, and it has done so. Temperatures at the poles were predicted to rise, and they have done so. The world is indeed warming, world temperatures are rising. If anything, the climate scientists were too conservative, as I understand it these things are happening more quickly that initially predicted.

Does this render the whole field useless? Obviously not. As an another poster mentioned, there are additional variables that must be accounted for that will presumably heighten the accuracy of climatological predictions.
 
... the scientific establishment and many who choose to believe them actively have a dog in this fight...
Can you name a field of endeavor, a system of belief, _anything_, in which those who speak on the topic do not have "a dog in the fight"?

Your mechanic gets paid if he can convince you that something on your plane needs to be fixed. Your doctor gets paid if he can convince you that you need to have your appendix removed. The pharmaceutical industry profits if they can convince you that there is invisible stuff called bacteria that will make you very sick and that they _just happen_ to also sell a wonderful substance called an antibiotic that will cure you of this invisible disease. A church ceases to exist unless they can convince you that their God demands your attendance and thinks very highly of your donations, and you should consider his opinion important because there's this afterlife thing...

If you choose one set of experts and declare their opinion invalid because they have "a dog in the fight", while giving another set of experts a free pass despite also having a stake in your belief, then you're doing _exactly_ the kind of thing the article said you would.
-harry
 
... We have a 150 year snapshot of directly measured data...
Actually we have measurements of CO2 concentration and temperature going back 800,000 years via ice cores. The current CO2 concentration is significantly higher than at any time in the past 800k years. We know we put it there, we can calculate how much we produce.

Gravity and air have existed for billions of years, so why do we think we have the ability to produce airplanes after such a brief period of study?

Or do we have the ability to come to understand physics and astronomy and meteorology without needing to live a significant portion of the lifetime of the universe?
-harry
 
... I don't recall 50 million people being displaced last year, due to rising sea levels, but I might have missed it...
What they predicted was 50 million migrating as a result of scarcity of food which resulted from changing weather patterns. It's not a provable or disprovable prediction, as you can never tie a particular instance of weather to MMGW.

But if you want to prove that something is false, you need to shoot down the most legitimate speakers, not just cut the knees out from under the least credible.
-harry
 
The problem is that "global warming" has become more of a political issue than actual science. Yes, the planet does seem to be warming. Of course, it's often ignored, that we don't really know if it's warming because of us or if it is warming naturally. Either way we don't know that we can do anything about it, or that we even should.

Should people continue to research the issue? Sure.

Should we make wild decisions because of what we currently know? No, probably not. But that is exactly what happens.
 
... Of course, it's often ignored, that we don't really know if it's warming because of us or if it is warming naturally...
We know that the CO2 concentration has increased by about a third. We know that we put it there. We know that CO2 encourages warming. We can calculate what temperature the Earth would be without an atmosphere, and that temperature is too cold to support life as we know it. We know how temperatures on our planet compare to those of the atmosphere-free moon. We know that Venus is warmer, on average, than Mercury, despite being farther away from the Sun.

None of these are in dispute by either side in this debate.

So we know that CO2 encourages warming and that we've dramatically raised the CO2 level and that we'll continue to do so dramatically. What we don't know with precision is how much things get warmer with more CO2. This is the debate.
Either way we don't know that we can do anything about it...
Well, one obvious approach would be "do less of the thing we did that caused it".
... or that we even should.
That's certainly arguable, though I'd point out that we're fairly heavily invested (economically) in the current locations of shorelines and sea levels, given a historical propensity to inhabit coastlines.
-harry
 
We know that the CO2 concentration has increased by about a third. We know that we put it there.
That is very much up for debate.

I do believe that alternate energy research is a good thing, and finding a cleaner energy wouldn't be a bad thing either. But my reasons for that aren't because of the 'global warming' propaganda.
 
The CO2 debate always made me wonder. How in the heck can they tell what percentage of CO2 in bagillion year old ice bubbles came from the atmosphere, from penguin poop, from salmon semen . . .

The best I can tell is that the CO2 calculation models employ fudge factors. Given the time spans involved it would seem that a change in an Nth decimal point can cause a model to give any answer desired. And who is to say which fudge factor is right?

If someone had the legitimate solution to global warming, assuming that it's real, I would be willing to overlook such a fly in the soup. But we didn't get answers. What we got was a proposal for a carbon trading market, ala Enron's energy market, where Al Gore and his venture capital corp owned the carbon market software. That's the point where global warming became another crony capitalism sales pitch for me.
 
That is very much up for debate...
How so?

We know how much oil and coal we burn, we know how much carbon that releases into the atmosphere, we know how much atmosphere there is, we can measure the CO2 concentration and can track its rise, and we can calculate that we produce double the amount of CO2 needed to account for that observable rise (and thus the other half is being absorbed by the oceans).

We know that CO2 is steadily increasing and we know that it's higher than any sample ever taken of any age going back 800,000 years.

Where's the mystery here?

Note that this isn't where the debate is, even researchers lined up on the "con" side aren't challenging this.
-harry
 
... How in the heck can they tell what percentage of CO2 in bagillion year old ice bubbles came from the atmosphere, from penguin poop, from salmon semen . . .
A concern over noise in the data could be quelled by comparing the data from multiple ice cores to each other to see that they correlate.
-harry
 
A concern over noise in the data could be quelled by comparing the data from multiple ice cores to each other to see that they correlate.
-harry

Thanks.

I'm just curious. What's the order of magnitude of CO2 delta that the scientists are claiming to see over the millenia? Is it on the order of .1%, 1%, 10%?

Reason I ask is that I'm more willing to give weight to noise cancellation as the overall delta increases. No need to answer right away. I'm patient.

On another board that I chatted on there are two guys that are strong defenders of global warming. One is a math professor on the west coast and the other is a meteorology student on the east coast. Those guys engaged a bunch of college students in debate on the board. An issue that always came up was the greenhouse effect of CO2 versus the greenhouse effect of water vapor. The general consensus, as far as I could tell from the debates, was that water vapor swamped out CO2 with regard to greenhouse warming effect.

After reading about a thousand posts on the topic my head was spinning and I reverted to KISS mode. Namely, whether or not global warming is real matters not. What matters is whether we are willing to reduce consumption of fossil fuels. The answer then becomes to reduce automation and lean (not go hog wild) more towards an Amish lifestyle of manual labor. That's fine by me. Heck it might even reduce obesity and health care costs.
 
Thanks.

I'm just curious. What's the order of magnitude of CO2 delta that the scientists are claiming to see over the millenia? Is it on the order of .1%, 1%, 10%?

380px-Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

The general consensus, as far as I could tell from the debates, was that water vapor swamped out CO2 with regard to greenhouse warming effect.
I'd say "is larger than". To say "swamps out" implies that the contribution of CO2 is insignificant, which isn't really accurate.
-harry
 
That is very much up for debate.

I do believe that alternate energy research is a good thing, and finding a cleaner energy wouldn't be a bad thing either. But my reasons for that aren't because of the 'global warming' propaganda.
Which statement is up for debate? The amount of CO2 or how it got there?
 
I'd say "is larger than". To say "swamps out" implies that the contribution of CO2 is insignificant, which isn't really accurate.
-harry
Nice graph. Now just overlay the infamous "hockey stick" temperature graph, and I'll cut a check to Friends of the Earth.
This might not end up so bad for me. I live in Chicago, and in twenty years or so I might have oceanfront property.
Unless the Rapture happens first.
 
Of course those 19% of college educated Republicans can be looking at the science behind solar output and seeing that the answer is not so simple as to say it's only mankind causing the increase in temperature. It's sort of hard to say it's only mankind when there is recorded temperature rises on Mars, Jupiter, Titon and Pluto.

I've heard this stated many times, but those who state it fail to reference their sources. I was able to track down the reference for Mars:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7136/pdf/nature05718.pdf

However trying to search for Titan (I think that's what you meant?), Jupiter, and Pluto only gives a bunch of pages repeating these places are warming but without listing the reference.

If the primary references could be found, I'd appreciate it so I could draw my own conclusions rather than what the agendists want me to hear.
 
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Here's a question I've seen asked, but never answered: Just what should the temperature of the earth be?

Our planet has had warmer periods, and colder periods. Some of those temp swings are in the fossil record, before humans. Are we warming up to 'normal'? Are we warming up above normal? Volcanoes that have erupted in the last couple years have dumped enough CO2 into the system to be a major factor - maybe even more than humans have done for many years. How is that accounted for?

I dunno - I think there are a lot of questions, and science, left before we can conclude that 'climate change' is our fault.
 
Yes, exactly. Like this: From: Phil Jones. To: Many. March 11, 2003...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2010/jul/07/russell-inquiry-i-was-wrong
... A single email suggests that a journal editor is trying to shut out a paper whose conclusions he rejects. But read the whole series and it emerges as the final step in a painfully fair process. The review also shows that the IPCC's selection process was rigorous, that papers weren't improperly excluded and that Jones didn't act alone to shut them out, and couldn't have...
... I would say that the energy industry, like natural gas, oil, and coal, is more aligned with our interest than the climate fanatics...
Your argument is based on your conclusion.
Look at all of our money that has been wasted so far in pursuing whatever scheme du jour the climate mongers think will rid the world of the demon CO2 the most effectively.
For example?
-harry
 
380px-Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png


I'd say "is larger than". To say "swamps out" implies that the contribution of CO2 is insignificant, which isn't really accurate.
-harry


It appears that the historic CO2 swing was on the order of +/- 25% from mean. I'm willing to agree that noise cancellation could cancel out penguin poop CO2 from that magnitude of swing. Of course I'm kidding when I use the phrase penguin poop to describe sources of CO2 other than the atmosphere. God forbid FF31 asks me to produce a bagillion year old web page showing penguin poop. Sigh. :D

I'm also willing to concede that you're right with regard to the relative magnitude of warming due to the effects of CO2 versus water vapor.

Given those concessions, what would you be willing to do to combat the problem of global warming?

I'd rather participate in more of an agrarian lifestyle and give up some modern conveniences to reduce fossil fuel consumption. IMO Al Gore leans toward an opposite end of the solution spectrum and seems to advocate more of a Soylent Green or WALL-E type future where the technocrats get the good stuff and the rednecks are left to pasture. That doesn't fly with me given that it's the rednecks, and blacks, and mexicans, and whatever minorities that go to war for the have mores like Al Gore.

:dunno: All I can do is vote.
 
Here's a question I've seen asked, but never answered: Just what should the temperature of the earth be?
10000 years ago Manhattan was buried underneath a glacier.

Was that the right temperature? If we returned to that climate, would it be right or wrong?

The Earth doesn't care, it's seen it all before, and knows it will see such things again, but if you owned property in Manhattan, you might be less enthusiastic about the prospect of such variation.

Again, we are "invested" in the current climate. We know that it will naturally vary dramatically over thousands of years, and we can adapt to that. But man-made climate change can happen on a much more compressed time scale. It's not concerning because of Mother Earth and polar bears, it's concerning because it has the potential to be extremely expensive and disruptive economically.
-harry
 
... Given those concessions, what would you be willing to do to combat the problem of global warming?...
Pay more for energy, both hippie-compliant (solar, wind) and non-hippie-compliant (nuclear). That comes with energy independence as a bonus, thus turning unrest in the Middle East from the Super Bowl into a late-night broadcast of Australian rules football.
-harry
 
Of course those 19% of college educated Republicans can be looking at the science behind solar output and seeing that the answer is not so simple as to say it's only mankind causing the increase in temperature. It's sort of hard to say it's only mankind when there is recorded temperature rises on Mars, Jupiter, Titon and Pluto.

Straw man. Climate scientists do NOT say that.

Here is what they are ACTUALLY saying:

"The IPCC's February summary report concluded that greenhouse gases were about 13 times more responsible than solar changes for rising global temperatures."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6290228.stm

In other words, climate scientists are not ignoring changes in the sun's output. The issue is how much of the industrial age warming has been due to human activity, and how much due to natural causes. Merely showing that natural causes exist is not enough to prove climate scientists wrong.
 
The climate scientists aren't exactly lone wolves. They conspire amongst themselves to shut disbelievers out of journals, labs, and academic jobs.
Climate "science" is its own industry.

Do you honestly think that the fossil fuel industry couldn't afford to fund the "disbelievers" themselves, and publish their results, if they thought it would disprove AGW?
 
How about this: I read the Climategate emails, and I found them to be damning.

Only if you interpret every ambiguity in a manner consistent with your conclusion. That's circular reasoning.

By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that there might be an inherent bias in making public the emails of only one side? How come the global warming denial industry hasn't made its emails public?
 
The problem is that "global warming" has become more of a political issue than actual science. Yes, the planet does seem to be warming. Of course, it's often ignored, that we don't really know if it's warming because of us or if it is warming naturally. Either way we don't know that we can do anything about it, or that we even should.

Should people continue to research the issue? Sure.

Should we make wild decisions because of what we currently know? No, probably not. But that is exactly what happens.

Simple: Climate Change is a power grab -- the "smart" people want to tell us stupid people how and where to live, what to do and not do, and to go away when told.
 
Pay more for energy, both hippie-compliant (solar, wind) and non-hippie-compliant (nuclear). That comes with energy independence as a bonus, thus turning unrest in the Middle East from the Super Bowl into a late-night broadcast of Australian rules football.
-harry

10-4.

Thanks for the discussion. :cheerswine:
 
... How about this: I read the Climategate emails, and I found them to be damning...
Ok. I'd ask two questions:
1) What, specifically, did you learn from those emails? What evidence of wrongdoing was contained within? Falsification of data? Evidence of a worldwide conspiracy?
2) What is the scope of that wrongdoing? The people involved in those emails, what role did they play in the evidence for MMGW? What capability did they have personally to manipulate global popular opinion? In other words, what portion of the case for MMGW were they responsible for? What kind of impact could they have with the wrongdoing you allege?
Your conclusion necessarily implies you have particular answers to these questions already.
-harry
 
On another board that I chatted on there are two guys that are strong defenders of global warming. One is a math professor on the west coast and the other is a meteorology student on the east coast. Those guys engaged a bunch of college students in debate on the board. An issue that always came up was the greenhouse effect of CO2 versus the greenhouse effect of water vapor. The general consensus, as far as I could tell from the debates, was that water vapor swamped out CO2 with regard to greenhouse warming effect.

While water vapor is a greenhouse gas, the problem with that argument is that when the water vapor content of the atmosphere is changed, it returns to equilibrium much more quickly than CO2 does. That means that water vapor is a "feedback," not a "forcing" factor.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...apour-feedback-or-forcing/langswitch_lang/en/

(I suspect the reason for this is that water enters and leaves the vapor state at normal atmosperic temperatures, while CO2 does not.)
 
10000 years ago Manhattan was buried underneath a glacier.

Was that the right temperature? If we returned to that climate, would it be right or wrong?

The Earth doesn't care, it's seen it all before, and knows it will see such things again, but if you owned property in Manhattan, you might be less enthusiastic about the prospect of such variation.

Again, we are "invested" in the current climate. We know that it will naturally vary dramatically over thousands of years, and we can adapt to that. But man-made climate change can happen on a much more compressed time scale. It's not concerning because of Mother Earth and polar bears, it's concerning because it has the potential to be extremely expensive and disruptive economically.
-harry

ahh - so the ideal earth temperature is whatever is convenient for us right now. Then I'd vote for warmer of over colder, and get longer crop growing seasons (cheaper food) and less heating energy costs.

Pay more for energy, both hippie-compliant (solar, wind) and non-hippie-compliant (nuclear). That comes with energy independence as a bonus, thus turning unrest in the Middle East from the Super Bowl into a late-night broadcast of Australian rules football.
-harry

+1000 - whenever this country decides, really decides, to become energy independent and actually follows through, the Middle East can drink it's oil for all I care.
 
I wonder...how many of the Republicans in the poll who answered the way they did, did so because they support/do not support something/someone on their/the other side? How different would it be if the control group changed (instead of education background...)
As far as the science debate and energy runaround stuff goes, "true" science surely occurs everyday, we simply do not hear about it. Not because of some lame conspiracy theory crap, it's simply not news anymore. R&D has always been in the background of everything, just nobody really pays much attention to it unless it applies to them. I'm sure the "new" soundproofing material made from (mushrooms i think) "green" sources has been somebody's basement lab project long before going green became such a sensation. 15 or 20 years ago, who would have invested in THAT? :dunno: Now it's a big deal, so let's throw them money. Pharmaceutical industry is no different. Who wants to deal with being sick? Take a pill you'll feel great. At least they have to talk about side-effects on the ads...maybe the principle symptom would be gone, but I might have some chronic byproduct (explosive diarrhea or something else foul) to live with instead.:hairraise:
"This too, shall pass"
 
Actually we have measurements of CO2 concentration and temperature going back 800,000 years via ice cores. The current CO2 concentration is significantly higher than at any time in the past 800k years. We know we put it there, we can calculate how much we produce.

Gravity and air have existed for billions of years, so why do we think we have the ability to produce airplanes after such a brief period of study?

Or do we have the ability to come to understand physics and astronomy and meteorology without needing to live a significant portion of the lifetime of the universe?
-harry

And the biggest explosions of life came when the temps were higher and the CO2 levels were higher. So maybe I should make the claim that rising temps and CO2 will cause explosions of life and we should do everything we can to raise them both??

PS - you wonder why we discredit people on AGW...

This page. Those charts do NOT show CO2 levels being significantly higher....in fact is appears that 325k years ago CO2 looks to be higher than today. At least close enough that I can not agree with your significantly higher claim.
 
Here's a question I've seen asked, but never answered: Just what should the temperature of the earth be?

Depends on what you mean by "should." As far as I can see, the universe doesn't care whether we continue to exist or not, so from that point of view, there is no temperature that the earth "should" have. From the point of view of human beings, on the other hand, we need to know if we are doing things that are likely to cause the global average temperature to change faster than we can cope with.

I dunno - I think there are a lot of questions, and science, left before we can conclude that 'climate change' is our fault.

I don't think it's possible to come to rational conclusions without looking at the research that has been done. A lot of people seem to think it's possible to disprove what climate scientists are saying without actually finding out what they're saying. That's why I keep posting links to http://realclimate.org and the like.
 
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The disconnect between believers and non-believers in primary anthropomorphic global warming, to some extent at least, came about because of the attempt to push the concept based on "scientific consensus" which is nothing but politics.

Scientific consensus throughout history has a smell to it:
Galileo confined
Cats killed for spreading/causing Bubonic plague
Tomatoes were poisonous
The earth was flat
The list is endless

Al Gore probably did more to solidify the non-believers' positions than anyone else.
 
I don't think it's possible to come to rational conclusions without looking at the research that has been done. A lot of people seem to think it's possible to disprove what climate scientists are saying with actually finding out what they're saying. That's why I keep posting links to http://realclimate.org and the like.
That site is as bad as the ones that claim there is no global warming, or global warming is not man-made. No references to the sources.
 
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