The Reality of Flying..

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supernovae

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supernovae
New pilot in training here - how often do you guys / gals get your families out flying on trips with your aircraft? is it really something that can be done or are more people than not having problems with significant others not wanting to go all in on flying and leaving it just as a hobby?

I'm curious how many people get out a couple of times a year on cross countries to go on vacations / trips with their own aircraft these days. Looking over clubs / rental agreements they all seem to do everything they can to make such things impossibly expensive - so do aircraft owners actually do this?

I have "dreams" of being able to fly out of GTO up to NM / Colorado to get out of Texas, park the plane and drive around the rockies with the family and while a Piper 180 could do that in a few hours - is there a rental / club agreement that allows for parked vacation time without charging say a minimum hourly per day parked? could never see myself being able to fly the family to new mexico, park the plane for a week and drive around in a rental car seeing the sights.

TL;DR - what is the reality of flying these days? Is this something that is purely the benefit of pilot owners or do clubs / rental places have vacation agreements where you can do stuff like this?
 
I get out with the Mrs. at least a couple times a year for trips. We just always require flexible scheduling. Some times we make it back a scheduled, some time not.
 
Just got my license this fall and I haven't taken any major trips yet. I have taken most of the family (besides my wife and youngest) for some sightseeing hops and hamburger runs. The club I belong to doesn't charge any minimums and the only thing I have to do is make sure I schedule the plane far enough in advance to insure availability. Planning on some overnight trips this spring and summer.
 
supernovae said:
New pilot in training here - how often do you guys / gals get your families out flying on trips with your aircraft? is it really something that can be done or are more people than not having problems with significant others not wanting to go all in on flying and leaving it just as a hobby?

I'm curious how many people get out a couple of times a year on cross countries to go on vacations / trips with their own aircraft these days. Looking over clubs / rental agreements they all seem to do everything they can to make such things impossibly expensive - so do aircraft owners actually do this?

I have "dreams" of being able to fly out of GTO up to NM / Colorado to get out of Texas, park the plane and drive around the rockies with the family and while a Piper 180 could do that in a few hours - is there a rental / club agreement that allows for parked vacation time without charging say a minimum hourly per day parked? could never see myself being able to fly the family to new mexico, park the plane for a week and drive around in a rental car seeing the sights.

TL;DR - what is the reality of flying these days? Is this something that is purely the benefit of pilot owners or do clubs / rental places have vacation agreements where you can do stuff like this?
Click to expand...

Each club/rental agreement has different rules. Some require that the plane be flown for 3 hours for each day it is off the line (in your possession) So if you take the plane for 5 days, put 15 hours on the hobbs meter - or pay 15 hours on the hobbs even if you only flew it 10. Some have no requirement like that. Or, buy your own plane, and do with it what you want. :) A decent Cherokee 180 can be cheaper to acquire than a new full size truck or SUV.

People do what you mentioned about New Mexico/Colorado all the time, so there's absolutely no reason you couldn't do that. Although my suggestion would be to fly all around CO/NM rather than see it from the ground.
 
we use the airplane just like another family car. If we go to visit my wife's sister 100 miles away we drive the volkswagon. If we go to visit my sister 900 miles away we drive the beechcraft. We only use the plane for family trips, if we have nowhere to go it sits.
 
supernovae said:
Looking over clubs / rental agreements they all seem to do everything they can to make such things impossibly expensive - so do aircraft owners actually do this?
Click to expand...

As Ed said, it really depends on the club's requirements.

Local to me, one school will rent a 172 for a full day away as long as a minimum of 2hrs per rental day is billed.

An equity club at KDTO where I'm at has a nice setup where overnights are permitted, they don't have any daily minimums, and they bill by the tach hour. So flying somewhere, not flying for a few days, and then fly back home means you're only billed for the time you were operating the aircraft.


And keep asking around your home area about co-owner opportunities. Check the bulletin boards at the FBO's and terminal buildings. Post your own flyer saying you're looking. Meet and say howdy to as many of the local pilots you can. There are often many opportunities out there that you won't find on the internet.
 
My sweetheart and I just came back from a weekend trip to Santa Fe (see my thread "help me plan"). Could have taken commercial. We both agreed it was much more fun to do it in the 182. 800nm trip. The concept here is that flying your own changes the character of the trip from point to point - "what is on the other end" - to "let's enjoy the way we get there". It's like a road trip in the sky. When you fly commercial you just want to get there as soon as possible.
 
I mostly fly long trips with other aviators like my brother or some friends as when we go to Sun N Fun or Oshkosh.

Family doesn't like flying much so don't make economic decisions on them until you know they enjoy it as much as you do.
 
JHW said:
we use the airplane just like another family car. If we go to visit my wife's sister 100 miles away we drive the volkswagon. If we go to visit my sister 900 miles away we drive the beechcraft. We only use the plane for family trips, if we have nowhere to go it sits.
Click to expand...

Same here. Using my plane allows my wife and relatives to carry all the stuff she would be unable by airline. I just leave the car at the hangar so no need to worry about parking fees or car rentals. Everybody gets a window seat. The trip schedule is more flexible which is important when travelling with three girls.

With AVGAS so expensive we only fly for either family travel or business. Can not afford hobby flying.

José
 
A few thoughts:

- I take the family on airplane trips several times a year, mostly for week-end outings. My club has rules that allow for this.

- The economics of general aviation can be quite attractive, at least if going commercial is the alternative: Airfare for a family, baggage fees, parking at major airports, on-board expenses for food etc. add up pretty quickly (To say nothing of taking the family dog along, which is prohibitively expensive on those carriers that still transport pets). For many family trips, general aviation is no more expensive or even cheaper than an airline flight.

- Keep in mind that general aviation is not as reliable as many other means of transport. Weather in particular is a big factor, even if you are instrument rated and current. That is not always a bad thing, since adverse weather may affect the attractiveness of your planned destination, anyway: Who wants to be at the beach in pouring rain, winds gusting to 35 knots and 1/8th mile visibility?

- As others have indicated, a big factor is subjective: How comfortable do your significant other, your children etc. feel on board a small propeller airplane? You may find that this changes over time: Initial enthusiasm may wane, but so may early reluctance (My wife, who used to hate flying general aviation, has recently begun talking about taking flying lessons).


All in all: To me the reality of flying is that trips are possible and economical. And a heck of a lot of fun!
 
supernovae said:
New pilot in training here - how often do you guys / gals get your families out flying on trips with your aircraft? is it really something that can be done or are more people than not having problems with significant others not wanting to go all in on flying and leaving it just as a hobby?

I'm curious how many people get out a couple of times a year on cross countries to go on vacations / trips with their own aircraft these days. Looking over clubs / rental agreements they all seem to do everything they can to make such things impossibly expensive - so do aircraft owners actually do this?

I have "dreams" of being able to fly out of GTO up to NM / Colorado to get out of Texas, park the plane and drive around the rockies with the family and while a Piper 180 could do that in a few hours - is there a rental / club agreement that allows for parked vacation time without charging say a minimum hourly per day parked? could never see myself being able to fly the family to new mexico, park the plane for a week and drive around in a rental car seeing the sights.

TL;DR - what is the reality of flying these days? Is this something that is purely the benefit of pilot owners or do clubs / rental places have vacation agreements where you can do stuff like this?
Click to expand...

I do that exact thing Dallas to Taos ~15 times a year and another 20+ trips somewhere else. Most clubs let you do that as long as you put on a certain number of hours and keep the time reasonable. The bigger issue is finding a club with an aircraft suited to your mission. You'll need an IR and a couple hundred hours for most clubs capable machines.
 
Depending on where you live you could afford to maintain a 172 or Cherokee 4 seat trainer, get your ppl, get your ir, use it on weekends and holidays to take some fantastic trips and own it for less than $50 per hour. Around here you can get a hangar for $120 per month or leave it on tie down for free. So now you just have to manage fuel and insurance.

If you get a mogas stc and it is available you can cut your fuel expense almost in half as well.

I owned a Cherokee for about 7-8 years and it never cost more than $10 per hour maintenance including improvements and annual inspections. 8 gph for mogas. It does not get much cheaper than that in aviation. Since I owned the plane I could do some trade outs flight time rental with CFI's and AI's for instruction and maintenance. My CFI gave me 3 hrs CFI time for 1 hr flight time dry, and my mechanic gave me one on one for flight time dry. Once you pay all your fixed expenses it really doesn't cost you to let someone fly the plane as the variable expenses on the engine and landing gear are hardly measurable and it might even be the case it is cheaper to use the plane then let it sit idle.

We took many trips to 1300, 1500, 1700 miles from Kansas to both coasts. I flew myself my son and his girlfriend to Florida 1700 miles one trip and we had a great time. I think I enjoyed it more than they did.

Buy a 4 seat plane and you will have lots of friends. You will be a very popular guy. There are more pilots wanting to go to fly ins than there are airplanes so you will often have your pick of people to fly with you and often share expenses.

I think if you can afford to buy an airplane, plus pay $250 per month average for all expenses plus fuel when you actually take trips then you can afford to own a 172 or Cherokee. You can surely afford to pay half or quarter of that and own a partnership.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I do that exact thing Dallas to Taos ~15 times a year and another 20+ trips somewhere else. Most clubs let you do that as long as you put on a certain number of hours and keep the time reasonable. The bigger issue is finding a club with an aircraft suited to your mission. You'll need an IR and a couple hundred hours for most clubs capable machines.
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If you don't mind me asking, what type of aircraft do you usually fly on these trips? Are you part of a club?
 
Piloto said:
Same here. Using my plane allows my wife and relatives to carry all the stuff she would be unable by airline. I just leave the car at the hangar so no need to worry about parking fees or car rentals. Everybody gets a window seat. The trip schedule is more flexible which is important when travelling with three girls.

With AVGAS so expensive we only fly for either family travel or business. Can not afford hobby flying.

José
Click to expand...

That's what I fear the most, I'd rather fly for fun than just the few times a year for vacation or business of which I have no business needs right now. I'd really love a club type deal since I can't fly all the time. I just look forward to those 7-10 day trips, but maybe having an airplane capability could mean more trips vs packing everything into one colossal family trip. I miss the mountains but maybe having quicker access through out the year would fill that need :)

That new diamond da50 flying jet a at 8gph and 150 knots sounds like a dream plane but sole ownership sounds crazy expensive and makes commercial air first class a bargain
 
supernovae said:
If you don't mind me asking, what type of aircraft do you usually fly on these trips? Are you part of a club?
Click to expand...

T206H. I used to belong to a local club that had 3 F33A Bonanza's. Basically any good cross country bird will work. Joining a club with only trainers won't help you do what you want. You can also try to find a rental with some capability, many renters will work with you to do trips like you want.
 
Owning an airplane for us is a lifestyle enabler, not a hobby. We have family scattered all over Texas and the contiguous states and we visit them all frequently. I also take business related trips to San Antonio and Austin at least once a month. 2007 DA40XL based at Dallas Executive (KRBD).
 
I've never seen a club that would do what you ask, why would they? The planes have to be used to have any chance of paying for themselves.

2 hours/day weekdays and 3 hr/day weekends is standard and you get to keep the plane all day, no matter the model and you can string days together for trips. It works out great for trips assuming you're going to fly around some at the destination.

supernovae said:
New pilot in training here - how often do you guys / gals get your families out flying on trips with your aircraft? is it really something that can be done or are more people than not having problems with significant others not wanting to go all in on flying and leaving it just as a hobby?

I'm curious how many people get out a couple of times a year on cross countries to go on vacations / trips with their own aircraft these days. Looking over clubs / rental agreements they all seem to do everything they can to make such things impossibly expensive - so do aircraft owners actually do this?

I have "dreams" of being able to fly out of GTO up to NM / Colorado to get out of Texas, park the plane and drive around the rockies with the family and while a Piper 180 could do that in a few hours - is there a rental / club agreement that allows for parked vacation time without charging say a minimum hourly per day parked? could never see myself being able to fly the family to new mexico, park the plane for a week and drive around in a rental car seeing the sights.

TL;DR - what is the reality of flying these days? Is this something that is purely the benefit of pilot owners or do clubs / rental places have vacation agreements where you can do stuff like this?
Click to expand...
 
supernovae said:
That new diamond da50 flying jet a at 8gph and 150 knots sounds like a dream plane but sole ownership sounds crazy expensive and makes commercial air first class a bargain
Click to expand...

How about a Mooney 201 flying 150 knots and burning 9, or flying 160 and burning 10?
 
The flight school I rent from here in Atlanta has no minimums and no overnight fees. They're one of the few places I've seen offer that. For the most part, everyone who rents tries to respect the fact that there's no overnight/minimums because they want it to stay that way, so you don't often see people taking the planes for a week and putting 1.5 on the hobbs.
 
I am retired but my wife is still working so our schedule is driven by hers, but we manage two or three personally flown vacations per year. She travels internationally extensively for business so she likes the slower on-your-own schedule that GA offers. We have two Cessnas that we use, a 1971 172 with a STC for a 180 horse and a 310.

That being said I don't know of any rental situation that would pencil out financially to fly to a destination and park the plane for a week. The machine has to pay for itself. Not sure what a "Piper 180" is, but planning to rent one for an extended time is not realistically viable.
 
supernovae said:
That new diamond da50 flying jet a at 8gph and 150 knots sounds like a dream plane but sole ownership sounds crazy expensive and makes commercial air first class a bargain
Click to expand...

First rule of general aviation: NEVER compare the cost to flying commercial.

For a pilot telling them it's cheaper to fly commercial is like telling a 3 star Michelin chef it's cheaper to eat at McDonalds.
 
supernovae said:
That new diamond da50 flying jet a at 8gph and 150 knots sounds like a dream plane but sole ownership sounds crazy expensive and makes commercial air first class a bargain
Click to expand...

DavidWhite said:
How about a Mooney 201 flying 150 knots and burning 9, or flying 160 and burning 10?
Click to expand...

From what I've read, the DA50 cruises at 200+ kts, and is pressurized, had 3 G1000's, seats 5, and has a MTWO of more than 3,500lbs.

They're 2 aircraft in 2 completely different classes, but that being said, considering the price points, I'd choose the Mooney.
 
Alexb2000 said:
First rule of general aviation: NEVER compare the cost to flying commercial.

For a pilot telling them it's cheaper to fly commercial is like telling a 3 star Michelin chef it's cheaper to eat at McDonalds.
Click to expand...

I have a family of four, to get to New Mexico in an a good cruiser within 4-5 hours from Austin is what I would like. (or faster hehe). It sounds like this ambition is purely the ownership or rich best friend route if this is a goal
 
supernovae said:
I have a family of four, to get to New Mexico in an a good cruiser within 4-5 hours from Austin is what I would like. (or faster hehe). It sounds like this ambition is purely the ownership or rich best friend route if this is a goal
Click to expand...

To do what you want assuming the kids are not adult kids (gross weight limitations) isn't that hard. You need about a 150 knot airplane which leaves a lot of choices. Perhaps ownership is the answer, but don't give up until you really look around.

In 3 minutes I found these:

http://austin.craigslist.org/for/3527647374.html

http://austin.craigslist.org/for/3487645676.html

http://www.planesmart.com/rental/cirrus-sr20-programs/
 
Austin to ABQ is 700 statue miles more or less. 700/5 hrs =140 mph or about 120 knots.

A Cherokee 180 will do this easily with about 1000 lbs useful load on 10 gph.
A Tiger will do this with some extra speed 13x? knots.
A 180hp 172 can do this as well.

For the same money as the three above you can find a complex plane that will do an honest 139 knots 950 useful load. Comanche 180 hp. Can be had about $30k maybe less. But now you have a bit more complex of plane and with complexity comes a bit more maintenance cost.

Landing gear:
Complex Prop:

I would say that the maintenance on this type of complex is double that of a Tiger/Cherokee/172 180hp.

An Arrow will cost more to purchase but be cheaper maintenance and also is a good plane to do a lease back or limited lease back rental deal with.
 
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