The real deal and short landings

[Richard]

How interesting Elizbeth's post WRT emergency procedures. A couple of days ago a guy wrecked a Citabria and I've been wondering about it ever since. I'm not second guessing the guy, just wondering.

So, here's the deal; you're solo in a Citabria at 1,000 agl directly over a university-sized soccer field when the engine coughs and stops. In a no wind condition could you land safely on the field? No one was on the field and no wires. I wonder if that moment of disbelief done him in. He lived, but had to be dragged out by bystanders and he has no recollection between when the engine first coughed and waking up in the hospital.

I used to regularly land a PA-28-161 in 100-200 feet. It's been awhile, could I do that now?

 

[Eamon]

How interesting Elizbeth's post WRT emergency procedures. A couple of days ago a guy wrecked a Citabria and I've been wondering about it ever since. I'm not second guessing the guy, just wondering.

So, here's the deal; you're solo in a Citabria at 1,000 agl directly over a university-sized soccer field when the engine coughs and stops. In a no wind condition could you land safely on the field? No one was on the field and no wires. I wonder if that moment of disbelief done him in. He lived, but had to be dragged out by bystanders and he has no recollection between when the engine first coughed and waking up in the hospital.

I used to regularly land a PA-28-161 in 100-200 feet. It's been awhile, could I do that now?

One of the jump pilots at the place I used to work at lost power at 8K Feet directly over the airport and didn't make it back................................. Things that make you go HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[woodstock]

One of the jump pilots at the place I used to work at lost power at 8K Feet directly over the airport and didn't make it back................................. Things that make you go HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

wouldn't you just spiral it in? keep circling?

 

[gismo]

wouldn't you just spiral it in? keep circling?

You've still got to time that last circle correctly, and manage the energy carefully. Landing within the first 300 ft of a runway is a lot easier than stuffing it into a 300 ft space with fences around it.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

You've still got to time that last circle correctly, and manage the energy carefully. Landing within the first 300 ft of a runway is a lot easier than stuffing it into a 300 ft space with fences around it.

In the case of the jump pilot, when the engine quits over the airport, you need to keep it over the airport. He decided to fly a 2-3 mile wide down wind leg. As Eamon indicated, most of us are still wondering, "Why?"

 

[bbchien]

In the case of the jump pilot, when the engine quits over the airport, you need to keep it over the airport. He decided to fly a 2-3 mile wide down wind leg. As Eamon indicated, most of us are still wondering, "Why?"

There emergency landing is a mandatory on my version of the BFR. Then I teach the hairpin reversal.

As for landing a PA28 161 in 1-200 feet, I doubt it unless it's just once. Or into a 40 knot gale. 200 yards, maybe.

 

[Toby]

wouldn't you just spiral it in? keep circling?

You've still got to time that last circle correctly, and manage the energy carefully. Landing within the first 300 ft of a runway is a lot easier than stuffing it into a 300 ft space with fences around it.

And then to have a no-wind situation on top of it. Would it be easier, or harder, to land in a no-wind situation? The direction of landing would be less critical, but it would take a longer distance to get down.

 

[grattonja]

It is easy to look academically at an emergency landing situation. But I think we all need to remember the "pucker" factor of a silent engine up front, or oil all over the windscreen. It has got to be easy to get distracted by trying to get that prop turning again, to lose situational awareness, to lose the field you think you want to be in, to keep too much speed up for too long to make it etc.

You all have reminded me that I need to be working more on power off landings when I practice, and to be looking for good emergency fields more.

Guess we can never get enough of that sort of practice.

Jim G

 

[jdwatson]

As for landing a PA28 161 in 1-200 feet, I doubt it unless it's just once. Or into a 40 knot gale. 200 yards, maybe.

Perhaps the original poster was referring to hitting the landing within 100-200 feet of their mark ala Private/Commercial PTS ? I'm not sure my body would stop within 100-200' if hurled across the runway at approach speeds.

 

[poadeleted20]

Personally, I couldn't land a Citabria safely on a 10,000-foot runway, but that's an issue of lack of tailwheel proficiency. Make it a C-150, and I've got a chance, but only if the approach to the field is clear enough that I can touch down right on the near endline, because a soccer field is only 300-400 feet long, and you've gotta be PERFECT to touchdown and stop in that space without power. Best bet would probably be to use the far end goal as a barricade to catch me, but I doubt it's strong enough for that to be a viable solution -- I suspect you cut right through the netting, although maybe catching the wingtips on the vertical posts might slow you down some. 'Course, even going into the usual chain link fence at the far end at 30 knots or so would probably be better than crashing into a telephone pole, tree, or house by landing in the neighborhood next to the field.

 

[poadeleted3]

Personally, I couldn't land a Citabria safely on a 10,000-foot runway, but that's an issue of lack of tailwheel proficiency. Make it a C-150, and I've got a chance, but only if the approach to the field is clear enough that I can touch down right on the near endline, because a soccer field is only 300-400 feet long, and you've gotta be PERFECT to touchdown and stop in that space without power. Best bet would probably be to use the far end goal as a barricade to catch me, but I doubt it's strong enough for that to be a viable solution -- I suspect you cut right through the netting, although maybe catching the wingtips on the vertical posts might slow you down some. 'Course, even going into the usual chain link fence at the far end at 30 knots or so would probably be better than crashing into a telephone pole, tree, or house by landing in the neighborhood next to the field.

What would happen if you cleared the obtacles and then slipped all the way to the ground? Would the plane flip, or just slide around?

 

[poadeleted20]

What would happen if you cleared the obtacles and then slipped all the way to the ground? Would the plane flip, or just slide around?

Depends on the condition of the field, how you touched down, and how you handle the plane after touchdown.

 

[T Bone]

In a tailwheel airplane, if you're now down on the field and runnung out of field, wouldn't a ground loop be a desireable alternative to crashing into stuff at the end?

 

[Henning]

How interesting Elizbeth's post WRT emergency procedures. A couple of days ago a guy wrecked a Citabria and I've been wondering about it ever since. I'm not second guessing the guy, just wondering.

So, here's the deal; you're solo in a Citabria at 1,000 agl directly over a university-sized soccer field when the engine coughs and stops. In a no wind condition could you land safely on the field? No one was on the field and no wires. I wonder if that moment of disbelief done him in. He lived, but had to be dragged out by bystanders and he has no recollection between when the engine first coughed and waking up in the hospital.

I used to regularly land a PA-28-161 in 100-200 feet. It's been awhile, could I do that now?

Tell ya what, if you're used to runways, and the plane goes quiet and you're looking down at a 4 lane road and a freakin soccer field from 1000', unless you've got enough manuvering time in that plane to fly it as an extension and can feel its energy and inertia, you're goin for the road every time. 300' is short especially without and engine.

As for the Warrior in 100-200'..., does that plane happen to have a reversing prop? I've come to a stop in 115' from 150kts a few times. The NTSB comes and sees the result...upside down. With power at a no obstacle field, slowing it down and getting on the steep side of the power curve at a no obstacle airport, and ground looping the end and going full power, 400' is about as short as I think I could put a warrior in, but if I only had 300' it'd be ok, because I'd be hitting whatever pretty slow and those onboard would most likely not be seriously injured.