The problem with driving a car until the wheels fall off

[jtheune]

Had a flat couple of moths ago for the first in many years. Donut had pressure but crapped out within 100 yards. It was a 97 donut so I guess I can't complain.

 

[Ted]

Except for my hobby vehicles to which I am addicted and which are all vintage, I buy new. Usually I will wait until I can pick up a new previous year model, but I like to buy them with the sticker still in the window. There is a car salesman that I have bought cars from for years, and I generally deal with him. Even after all these years and all the cars that I have bought from him, we still have to play the game. It usually takes me three or four weeks of dickering for me to finally buy something. It is just the way I like to do it.

To each their own. I personally have bought one new vehicle, and don't intend to ever again. The amount of money it costs is just too high for what you get. On the other hand, I turn my own wrenches, and that does impact things. It's been years since I paid someone to work on a ground-based vehicle.

 

[MAKG1]

To each their own. I personally have bought one new vehicle, and don't intend to ever again. The amount of money it costs is just too high for what you get. On the other hand, I turn my own wrenches, and that does impact things. It's been years since I paid someone to work on a ground-based vehicle.

I pay someone else for tires and wheels just because they have much better equipment to do that than I do. An interferometer alignment machine runs circles around strings and levels. And I don't have a mill and lathe at home, so most of the machine work goes out elsewhere. These days, I don't bother resurfacing brakes and flywheels, as just buying reman parts is only slightly more expensive and substantially faster.

But I do all the wrench turning and diagnosis.

 

[Skylane81E]

I pay someone else for tires and wheels just because they have much better equipment to do that than I do. An interferometer alignment machine runs circles around strings and levels. And I don't have a mill and lathe at home, so most of the machine work goes out elsewhere. These days, I don't bother resurfacing brakes and flywheels, as just buying reman parts is only slightly more expensive and substantially faster.

But I do all the wrench turning and diagnosis.

Yeah, I farm out all work requiring specialty tools, so tires, alignment and machine work. Beyond that I just do it myself.

 

[Ted]

I pay someone else for tires and wheels just because they have much better equipment to do that than I do. An interferometer alignment machine runs circles around strings and levels. And I don't have a mill and lathe at home, so most of the machine work goes out elsewhere. These days, I don't bother resurfacing brakes and flywheels, as just buying reman parts is only slightly more expensive and substantially faster.

But I do all the wrench turning and diagnosis.

Good point - I do let someone else do tires and alignment. I don't end up needing to do machining on my vehicles typically, just parts swapping.

 

[Maxmosbey]

To each their own. I personally have bought one new vehicle, and don't intend to ever again. The amount of money it costs is just too high for what you get. On the other hand, I turn my own wrenches, and that does impact things. It's been years since I paid someone to work on a ground-based vehicle.

When I was younger I bought used vehicles and did most of the repairs myself, but at this stage of my life I buy vehicles for driving and vehicles for wrenching, and I try not to get confused which is which. I buy new because I like new cars. Not defending the practice in any way.

 

[DaleB]

I buy new because I like new cars, and they seem to never break. I change oil and wiper blades, occasionally throw tires on them. If the brakes get worn I'll have a buddy who owns a repair place do them; I'm not turning rotors and I got tired of doing brake jobs.

The last time I remember actually having to fix something mechanical that went wrong on a car we bought new was... let's see... 2002, maybe? 2001? Before that there were a couple of O2 sensors and window & wiper motors on the old mid-90s minivans. Six new vehicles, 17 years, maybe 2-3 lost weekends. Not too shabby.

Used cars have been another story altogether - with five kids, there have been a few of those as well. The two Foci we bought used from a dealer (2000 & 2001 models, teen-driven) were trouble-free if you don't count collision damage. The imports (Honda, Toyota and Acura) were rolling disasters that tried to eat us out of house and home.

 

[JOhnH]

The only problem with driving a car until the wheels fall off is that one day you will be driving your car, and your wheels will fall off. That is not a good thing.

Other than that, there is no problem. The problem you described has more to do with buying a replacement car.

 

[mikea]

before we went to Marfa, Leah decided to get a AAA membership. Back then Ol' Blue had under 240,000 miles on it but she was concerned by all the spare parts I had bought (that are still in the toolbox). I figured a AAA membership was nice but there are some areas out there where it would be a long wait for a tow truck.

I developed a hatred for AAA and have refused to renew, but I can't figure out how you call for road service on your own. Call the non-emergency number for the local police?

 

[cessna182b]

The only problem with driving a car until the wheels fall off is that one day you will be driving your car, and your wheels will fall off. That is not a good thing.

Other than that, there is no problem. The problem you described has more to do with buying a replacement car.

I drove my old Thunderbird like that - and you're right - a wheel did fall off (broken front suspension, actually). Fortunately, I was walking distance from home. Had it hauled to my driveway then hired a mobile mechanic to rebuild the front end. Then I drove it till the engine developed hydrostatic lock from a blown head gasket. Definitely got my money out of it (bought new & drove it for 19 years).

Dave

 

[MAKG1]

Yeah, but people dramatically overestimate the effects of age. 80,000 miles is NOT an old car. All three of my current vehicles are over 200,000. My record is 350,000 on a 1991 Exploder (could have been a lot longer if the SO didn't drive it with a broken serpentine belt).

I've never had a wheel fall off. Handling gets poor well before that point, and you replace the balljoint/wheel bearing/whatever at that point to keep the car out of the trees.

 

[olasek]

Ugh what a PIA I guess its better than going to a dealer.

I have no problem buying from craigslist but personally I would like to buy a car below 70k miles and single owner, full paper work.

This was my fun car but I had a real blast looking for a specific BMW Z3, 1998-2002, I knew exactly what I wanted, engine size, color, mileage, etc. I waited for the right car to show up and it did after about 4 months. I ended up with a car in mint condition, low miles (< 50k), complete service records, you can tell the previous owner was a real automobile enthusiast.

If you are under time constraint, in semi-emergency and looking for an ordinary utility car then I imagine the process would be more stressful.

 

[RJM62]

Yeah, but people dramatically overestimate the effects of age. 80,000 miles is NOT an old car. All three of my current vehicles are over 200,000. My record is 350,000 on a 1991 Exploder (could have been a lot longer if the SO didn't drive it with a broken serpentine belt).

I've never had a wheel fall off. Handling gets poor well before that point, and you replace the balljoint/wheel bearing/whatever at that point to keep the car out of the trees.

What's your feeling on "high-mileage" oils?

I have a good friend (also a pilot) who owns a Castrol oil change franchise, and he tells me that he was cynical at first, but that the high-mileage oils do seem to help clean up the engine's innards, if nothing else.

Today they had Penzoil high-mileage oil on sale at Dollar General today, and as I was due for an oil change anyway, I picked some up. My car has ~147K, so I think it qualifies. But I really don't burn much oil -- I rarely have to add oil between oil changes -- and what came out looked surprisingly clean.

But hey, it was a good brand of oil that was on sale, so what the heck.

-Rich

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think they make a lot of difference -- any good synthetic will do. But I doubt they do significant harm.

I prefer to use a C-rated oil even in my spark ignition engines, due to the higher phosphate additive and larger temperature range. I've yet to see a C-rated oil that isn't also S-rated, and most of the synthetics qualify.

It's more important that the oil be kept clean -- and a magnetic oil plug can do wonders, as the nasty stuff is the ferrous particles. This also gives you (very) early indication of a problem.

Change your oil every 5000 miles or so (you can push this with synthetics if you change the filter every 5000 miles -- people miss that last detail quite a lot), and watch for sludge accumulation and ferrous particles, and you'll be good.

I've never had a vehicle killed -- or even significant bottom-end engine damage -- due to a spontaneous engine failure. Only as a consequence of something else, mainly cooling system failures. After I sold my Bronco II, the next owner reported that it broke a cam (racing offroad! -- and I'm fairly certain he pushed the redline) at just over 250,000 miles, and the crankshaft and connecting rods were still in spec and the bearings bright and shiny; both of us were shocked that they looked that good. As long as they have oil and coolant, they seem to do pretty good.

 

[redtail]

Yeah, but people dramatically overestimate the effects of age. 80,000 miles is NOT an old car. All three of my current vehicles are over 200,000. My record is 350,000 on a 1991 Exploder (could have been a lot longer if the SO didn't drive it with a broken serpentine belt).

I've never had a wheel fall off. Handling gets poor well before that point, and you replace the balljoint/wheel bearing/whatever at that point to keep the car out of the trees.

247,000 on my '03 Maxima, mostly highway miles, commuting to work in NYC when I lived in the Poconos.

I bought it new and she just turned ten years old. No major problems over the years.

Last week on my way home from work, the alternator went and I had to get towed home. This was the first time I've used AAA in years .

I'm gonna drive it, til the wheels fall off

 

[olasek]

Change your oil every 5000 miles or so (you can push this with synthetics if you change the filter every 5000 miles --

With synthetics recommended oil change intervals are close to 15,000 miles, no intermediate oil filter change is necessary. At least this is per Jaguar's and BMW specs. How it applies to other cars/engines I don't know. Mobil 1 blanket-guarantees its synthetic oil for 15,000 miles and lab tests show it doesn't start breaking down until 20-25,000 miles.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I developed a hatred for AAA and have refused to renew, but I can't figure out how you call for road service on your own. Call the non-emergency number for the local police?

I haven't had it long enough to develop any opinion of it from being a member. I was a police officer for 29 years and I loved it when I stopped to help someone who was broke down and had AAA. We had three AAA approved service stations and one of them would hustle out to wherever I was and tow the car, no fuss. As far as contacting AAA yourself for service, I don't know. If I were broke down on the side of the road I would call the police and ask them to send a AAA wrecker out to me or I would get on my phone and find a AAA service station close to me then call them directly.

 

[DaleB]

What's your feeling on "high-mileage" oils?

Interesting question.

In my old Sport Trac, I decided to go with Mobil 1 once. I ran it 10,000 miles, with a filter change at the 5,000 mile mark. When I drained the oil I noticed it was black as coal. Didn't think much of it... until I went to dump the used oil in the tank and my buddy's shop. It took several minutes for that oil to glop its way out of the gallon milk jug. I went back to Castrol and normal oil changes per the owner's manual.

The new F150 manual says 10K miles on the oil - and that's with the twin turbo EcoBoost, even. I'm not that trusting. I'm changing it at 6K intervals.

 

[weilke]

I haven't had it long enough to develop any opinion of it from being a member. I was a police officer for 29 years and I loved it when I stopped to help someone who was broke down and had AAA. We had three AAA approved service stations and one of them would hustle out to wherever I was and tow the car, no fuss. As far as contacting AAA yourself for service, I don't know. If I were broke down on the side of the road I would call the police and ask them to send a AAA wrecker out to me or I would get on my phone and find a AAA service station close to me then call them directly.

AAA is the only insurance you can buy if you alrady had the incident. The national number will allow you to become a member over the phone before they send a wrecker. They know that most people forget to cancel and that they will get 2-3 years of membership out of anyone who signs up.

 

[MAKG1]

Interesting question.

In my old Sport Trac, I decided to go with Mobil 1 once. I ran it 10,000 miles, with a filter change at the 5,000 mile mark. When I drained the oil I noticed it was black as coal. Didn't think much of it... until I went to dump the used oil in the tank and my buddy's shop. It took several minutes for that oil to glop its way out of the gallon milk jug. I went back to Castrol and normal oil changes per the owner's manual.

The new F150 manual says 10K miles on the oil - and that's with the twin turbo EcoBoost, even. I'm not that trusting. I'm changing it at 6K intervals.

Actually, really dirty oil on the first change is a good thing. It means it's removing a lot of crap, and it's getting suspended like it should be.

The #1 thing that causes sludge is not the oil's fault. It's contamination. Crankcase oil is in a very harsh environment and will absorb combustion products. To the point that, if you believe your vehicle doesn't use oil, you're wrong. It's just being replaced with non-oil. Oil does not "wear out." It gets contaminated and the additives get used up.

Check your PCV system.

If you want to find out when you really need to change the oil, have a used oil analysis done. At some point, the metals start to spike, and that's when you need it. You may find it's quite a lot longer than the maintenance schedule says. You're unlikely to find it's shorter unless something is wrong.

What you shouldn't do is mix your own additives, even though there are a bunch that claim to do everything but provide bikini models for your next party. Additives can and do displace each other; you only have so much surface. Lots of folks think they can redneck that better than an actual petroleum engineer who can actually name the additives. This is unlikely.

 

[RJM62]

Interesting question.

In my old Sport Trac, I decided to go with Mobil 1 once. I ran it 10,000 miles, with a filter change at the 5,000 mile mark. When I drained the oil I noticed it was black as coal. Didn't think much of it... until I went to dump the used oil in the tank and my buddy's shop. It took several minutes for that oil to glop its way out of the gallon milk jug. I went back to Castrol and normal oil changes per the owner's manual.

The new F150 manual says 10K miles on the oil - and that's with the twin turbo EcoBoost, even. I'm not that trusting. I'm changing it at 6K intervals.

I've had similar experience that persuaded me that synthetics are a good choice for new cars or recently-rebuilt engines, but maybe not so much for older cars.

On cars that I've bought new since there was such a thing as synthetic, they got nothing but synthetic from the first oil change, and those engines didn't seem to wear at all. The oil wouldn't even look dirty when I drained it for changes at 5K intervals.

But a few years ago I bought an old beater for a knock-around car, which wasn't burning or losing oil when I bought it -- until the first oil change. The synthetic oil did seem to loosen all the goo, that's for sure; but the engine started burning oil like crazy after that. Maybe the goo was sealing the engine, which of course is a less-than-ideal situation in itself. Or maybe it was coincidental.

Whatever the case, on the advice of my friend the mechanic, I only use synthetic in relatively new cars. I usually (but not religiously) use the high-mileage (non-synthetic) oil in older cars, also on his advice, but I'm really not sure how much of a difference there is.

I do think that people who have oil discussions probably have few engine problems, anyway, just because we're the sort who regularly change the oil.

One thing that would be nice would be if more manufacturers started mounting the oil filter toward the top of the engine so it could be changed without losing the oil and having to catch, strain, and re-use it. I might let a good synthetic oil go 15,000 miles between changes, based on the research; but I just can't wrap my head around the idea of a filter lasting that long.

-Rich

 

[tonycondon]

ol' blue is basically on a progressive oil change plan now...i just buy whatever's on sale at O'Reilly's and change every 3000 miles

 

[MAKG1]

Rich, I've converted every used vehicle I've owned to synthetic (generally Mobil 1), and the only times I had leaks, they were preexisting (anything Ford...).

The first generation of synthetics in the 70s and early 80s certainly did that, but we aren't using SD oil anymore....

 

[RJM62]

Rich, I've converted every used vehicle I've owned to synthetic (generally Mobil 1), and the only times I had leaks, they were preexisting (anything Ford...).

The first generation of synthetics in the 70s and early 80s certainly did that, but we aren't using SD oil anymore....

I guess in the end it comes down to whatever works best. Again, I think people who are inclined to maintain their vehicles conscientiously will have fewer problems, in any case.

With regard to buying cars on Craig's List (or eBay, etc.), there's a certain skill set that comes into play. Part of this is having some degree of knowledge of cars, but the other part is recognizing car flippers, "brokers," and scammers (who are not necessarily the same thing).

Car flippers are usually either unlicensed, or else they may actually have a dealer license -- it's not a very hard thing to get -- to cover themselves in case they get caught, but still execute almost all of their sales as private sellers. These folks buy cars from auctions, dealers with old trade-ins they don't want to be bothered with, or sellers who don't want the hassles of selling the cars themselves; then they do absolutely nothing to the cars, tack a few hundred dollars onto the prices, and re-sell them.

To complicate matters a bit, flippers are not necessarily crooks -- in a practical sense, at least. They're crooks because they don't have licenses (or conceal the fact that they do), and because they commit fraud by mis-categorizing themselves as private sellers; but neither of those things necessarily mean that they lie about the cars themselves. These folks range from honest farmers with a libertarian bent who supplement their incomes by flipping a couple of cars a week (but who can't be bothered getting the state's imprimatur), to consummate scam artists.

Next there are the brokers, who basically sell cars on behalf of people who can't be bothered doing it themselves. They have the sellers sign the titles, and then represent themselves as the sellers' nephew, brother-in-law, second cousin twice-removed, or whatever. They deal with the annoyance of selling the cars in return for a markup or a percentage of the sale price. Again, they're not necessarily crooks, but they may be.

And then there are the legitimate dealers (as in dealers with actual used car lots) who mis-categorize themselves as private sellers because they know that a lot of people hold used car dealers in less-than-high regard. Once a buyer inquires about the car, the sale is handled legally (that is, as a dealer sale).

These folks present a conundrum for me. The fact that they mis-categorize themselves as private sellers is fraudulent, which would suggest a high sleaze factor. But on the other hand, I've gotten some pretty good deals from dealers of this sort.

Having purchased many a used vehicle, if there were any two things I'd say are universally true, they would be:

1. Always make sure the CEL light initially lights up on when you start the car. On most cars, they're easy to disable / disconnect. It's a federal offense, of course, but there are ways to disable a CEL that would be hard to prove were done intentionally. For example, if a dealer / seller merely replaces the CEL bulb with a dead one, it's hard to prove that the bulb didn't simply burn out on its own.

2. Always be very suspicious of any vehicle that has no battery, or a dead battery, or a battery that's disconnected because the seller "just replaced the battery cable because it was corroded," "was working on the car," etc. More often than not, the battery was actually missing / dead / disconnected in order to clear a code, in the hope that the code wouldn't come back until after the test drive, after the deal was closed and the money changed hands.

-Rich

 

[Geico266]

Yeah, but people dramatically overestimate the effects of age. 80,000 miles is NOT an old car. All three of my current vehicles are over 200,000. My record is 350,000 on a 1991 Exploder (could have been a lot longer if the SO didn't drive it with a broken serpentine belt).

I've never had a wheel fall off. Handling gets poor well before that point, and you replace the balljoint/wheel bearing/whatever at that point to keep the car out of the trees.

I've got 310,000 on my old pickup. .

 

[Maxmosbey]

Yeah, but people dramatically overestimate the effects of age. 80,000 miles is NOT an old car. All three of my current vehicles are over 200,000. My record is 350,000 on a 1991 Exploder (could have been a lot longer if the SO didn't drive it with a broken serpentine belt).

I've never had a wheel fall off. Handling gets poor well before that point, and you replace the balljoint/wheel bearing/whatever at that point to keep the car out of the trees.

By the time one of my daily drivers gets 80,000 miles I'm pretty much tired of it and ready to get something different. My old vehicles, well, I swap out the engines on them just to build up a new one. I have no idea how many miles my 72 Jeep has on it. For my new vehicles, the Silverado and the Solstice, I use synthetics and have the oil changed at the dealership. I change it when it gets down to 30%. They both tell me when to change the oil. My old cars and motorcycles get Quaker State. I change the oil pretty regularly on them because I keep taking them apart and putting them back together again, so I'm always dropping the oil for some reason or another.

 

[olasek]

But on the other hand, I've gotten some pretty good deals from dealers of this sort.

Never ran across a dealer who would represent himself as a private owner, I am not saying they don't exist, it was never part of my experience. But I agree that not all used car dealers are bad, I actually had 2 very decent purchases made through such dealers, both gave me some minimal warranty, provided in one case with a post-sale search for a missing jack, etc, overall they gave me a much better deal than many private individuals at the time I was looking.

 

[RJM62]

Never ran across a dealer who would represent himself as a private owner, I am not saying they don't exist, it was never part of my experience. But I agree that not all used car dealers are bad, I actually had 2 very decent purchases made through such dealers, both gave me some minimal warranty, provided in one case with a post-sale search for a missing jack, etc, overall they gave me a much better deal than many private individuals at the time I was looking.

There are tons of them on CL. Most of them don't hide it very well. They'll show you a picture of the car -- on a used car lot, for example; or they'll use the same phone number on half a dozen "private" sale ads on the same day.

I really don't care very much that they hide the fact that they're dealers, and on CL I suspect a big part of the reason is that the site gives you the option of seeing only private sellers, only dealers, or both. I suspect that a lot of people exclude the dealers because they think they're sleazy and/or because they think the prices are going to be higher.

-Rich

 

[jesse]

I developed a hatred for AAA and have refused to renew, but I can't figure out how you call for road service on your own. Call the non-emergency number for the local police?

Uh, no, it's pretty simple. Pull out your smart phone and google. The last time it happened to me (earlier this year) it took me about 10 seconds to get a tow company on the phone. I paid about a hundred dollars for the tow. Considering how I've only been towed once in 10 years of driving I think I'm ahead without AAA.

 

[weilke]

2. Always be very suspicious of any vehicle that has no battery, or a dead battery, or a battery that's disconnected because the seller "just replaced the battery cable because it was corroded," "was working on the car," etc. More often than not, the battery was actually missing / dead / disconnected in order to clear a code, in the hope that the code wouldn't come back until after the test drive, after the deal was closed and the money changed hands.

Borrow a code-scanner, it will tell you whether all the modules have run and whether the 'no CEL' is therefore valid. If you plug in the scanner and it tells you that some of the modules haven't run yet, you know the seller either cleared a code 5min before you showed up or by leaving the battery disconnected.