The new F-35 can't land vertically - at least not twice.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, for VFA/Hornets there are exchanges with the UK for Tornados and Typhoons, Spain EF-18, Canada CF-18, Swiss F-18, Australia F/A-18F, France Super Etendard and Rafale, and I'm not sure if the one in Germany still exists. They don't open up very often, and they are not "hard fills" (as in they only get filled if all the other USN production/instructor billets get filled), so it isn't that common to grab. It would be a really cool experience I'm sure, and I'd be happy doing it, but there are also some significant negative ramifications in doing one when it comes to FITREPS.....basically you walk out the door at the end with several non-competitive 1 of 1 FITREPS that can very likely screw you in the future.....or at least require you to do a really undesirable follow on job to become "competitive" once again......which is basically the bureau's way of making you pay back such a good deal. At least that is my understanding from several front office discussions about the matter. I'm sure mileage varies depending on the person, and their specific circumstances but that is the gist I got.

AF exchange presents similar issues, but as I understand, is not as detrimental. For us, during your shore tour, you are with very very few exceptions (as in someone wants to get out and just asked for something different), expected to go to a flying tour.....and that flying tour, in the minds of BUPERS, should be a "production billet" where you are either a Hornet/F-35 instructor, a T-45 instructor, an SFTI (TOPGUN graduate) serving in Fallon or one of the the weapons schools, a TPS grad working in one of the test squadrons, or working at Strike in Fallon as an airwing instructor. Anything other than that is seen as either neutral to bad.....common ones being adversary/aggressor and any exchange tour. That's unfortunate in my mind, because those tours give you some cool unique experiences, but it also drives away the guys who are really chomping at the bit to make command.

That was a very long answer to a short question

I always thought it was strange to see billets for my brothers in the Navy that were considered a "kiss of death" that would be viewed favorably by the Army. I did a six month stint in the Western Sahara as a UNMO in the early 90's observing a cease fire and learning about the tactics employed by both sides. A great military experience that broadened my base knowledge and helped my career. For the Navy/Marine officers there it was a dumping ground.
General Stillwell spent years in China, something the Navy would look down upon but something that served us well when we had to fight there.
One of my few regrets was an offer made to me after I put in my paper work to leave active duty- a joint assignment in Australia as an IP. But we had already made the decision that I would get out a pursue a civilian flying career and my wife would stay active duty. Still, we struggled with that offer. Our teenage daughter is upset as she is sure she would have an Australian accent if I took it.

 

[35 AoA]

I always thought it was strange to see billets for my brothers in the Navy that were considered a "kiss of death" that would be viewed favorably by the Army. I did a six month stint in the Western Sahara as a UNMO in the early 90's observing a cease fire and learning about the tactics employed by both sides. A great military experience that broadened my base knowledge and helped my career. For the Navy/Marine officers there it was a dumping ground.
General Stillwell spent years in China, something the Navy would look down upon but something that served us well when we had to fight there.
One of my few regrets was an offer made to me after I put in my paper work to leave active duty- a joint assignment in Australia as an IP. But we had already made the decision that I would get out a pursue a civilian flying career and my wife would stay active duty. Still, we struggled with that offer. Our teenage daughter is upset as she is sure she would have an Australian accent if I took it.

Yeah it seems a little counter-intuitive to me. From what I have seen, most of the time those jobs only go to folks who really want them, which is certainly good. But at the same time, they do so knowing that it isn't the career choice that BUPERS wants you to make. I wouldn't call it the kiss of death, at least not in the same way as an adversary tour or a non-flying tour is, but it isn't going to make a middle of the pack sort of dude break out any sooner. We have pretty high screen rates for O-4/Department Head tour, so that isn't where you pay, but as I understand it, when it comes time for your command screen and O-5 board you can be at a distinct disadvantage. Then again, there are droves of guys getting out, so that doesn't matter to everyone. I'd think that having 500-1000 hrs of Eagle/Viper time could go a long way towards securing a nice guard job if that was your long term plan.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Good argument. Especially from someone sucking on the government teet in MD.

Allow me to remind you that most of the money in maryland is derived from defense contractors as is northern virgina. Both are loaded with lobbyists and contractors , exactly what Eisenhower warned about many years ago. Beth steel is gone, big GM plant gone! Thousands of jobs gone overseas. The F35 is a classic example of what's wrong with letting lobbyists and congress decide what we should defend ourselves with, as is the mighty flying Wurlitzer, the osprey , another barking dog. Corporations have taken over Aberdeen proving grounds using land bought and paid for by taxpayers. Many more examples. In 1960 there were 100 lobbyists in washington, to day there are over 22000 , all giving congress members big bribes, thousands living in maryland to "be close to the action".

 

[EvilEagle]

think that having 500-1000 hrs of Eagle/Viper time could go a long way towards securing a nice guard job if that was your long term plan.

YUP! Long TX courses are hard to get these days, the best way to get hired is to be current & qualifies in the jet you want yo fly. We had a couple of Hornet dudes calling about jobs but even if those guys were our top pic we couldn't get them to a transition course for at least 18-24 months.

 

[Blackhawk]

Allow me to remind you that most of the money in maryland is derived from defense contractors as is northern virgina. Both are loaded with lobbyists and contractors , exactly what Eisenhower warned about many years ago. Beth steel is gone, big GM plant gone! Thousands of jobs gone overseas. The F35 is a classic example of what's wrong with letting lobbyists and congress decide what we should defend ourselves with, as is the mighty flying Wurlitzer, the osprey , another barking dog. Corporations have taken over Aberdeen proving grounds using land bought and paid for by taxpayers. Many more examples. In 1960 there were 100 lobbyists in washington, to day there are over 22000 , all giving congress members big bribes, thousands living in maryland to "be close to the action".

What you wrote is what happens when you give this kind of power to a central government. The wealth is concentrated there as companies are forced to pay in order to play. Look what happened to Microsoft when they blew off having lobbyists. They learned their lesson the hard way and now spend quite a bit on lobbyists. The only companies that can comply with the byzantine regulatory system we now have in place are large, well connected companies. **** off the wrong people and the government can ruin you. Just look at what happened to people who publicly criticized Obama or gave to the wrong party- they found themselves facing audits by multiple government organizations for the first time in their lives. In one case a man spent over $700K in legal defense, and he was cleared of any wrong doing.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0000872396390444464304577537233908744496.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/ben...arget-of-irs-harassment-for-criticizing-obama


So your solution is MORE government power and control. Good plan. Let's feed the leviathan.

 

[turbofan]

To understand the difference in numbers, it helps to understand how the F-35 is intended to fit into the arsenal. With the exception of the AV-8, the F-35 is not intended to replace anything. I can't speak for the Air Force plans, but from what I have seen, for the USN/USMC, the F-35C will augment existing Hornet squadrons. So you will have only a few F-35Cs deploying with any given F-18 squadron, thus no need for the Marines to have large numbers of the C.

The F-35 isn't going to be augmenting any USMC F-18 squadrons, it's replacing them and the Navy's legacy Hornets. All but two of the USMC's Hornet squadrons go to the boat, so my question is why is the USMC buying all these F-35Bs if the majority of them will never go to the boat? The B variant has been the biggest pain in the ass for this program, yet the STOVL / VTOL capabilities are only needed to replace like what, only 100 Harriers in the USMC inventory?

The ratio of how many F-35Bs are really needed to the amount of pain it's been causing and the compromises that had to be made for the B seems disproportional.

 

[Fearless Tower]

All but two of the USMC's Hornet squadrons go to the boat, so my question is why is the USMC buying all these F-35Bs if the majority of them will never go to the boat? The B variant has been the biggest pain in the ass for this program, yet the STOVL / VTOL capabilities are only needed to replace like what, only 100 Harriers in the USMC inventory?



The ratio of how many F-35Bs are really needed to the amount of pain it's been causing and the compromises that had to be made for the B seems disproportional.

If you are asking this question, then you must not understand the current state of the AV-8B inventory.

I am no proponent of the F-35 (any variant) but the USMC has painted itself into the corner on this one.

 

[Blackhawk]

The entire military procurement process is a fiasco. A few examples come to mind.
When the Army purchased the UH-72 Lakota it came with a fuel flow indicator in the civilian version, the EC145. The Army did not have this in their specs so they insisted it be removed... at extra cost.
When fielding the UH60M the Army paid extra for the GPS to have fewer waypoints as the specs did not call for all the waypoints capability that was in the GPS. The Army then came back a few years later and asked that the GPS be put back to the original configuration with the capability for the extra waypoints, at extra expense. Oh, and the GPS is not IFR certified.
The "all weather" attack helicopter AH-64 was fielded without the capability to fly IFR.
The MH-47D was fielded with a glass cockpit. Both tubes ran off of one bus and there were no backup instruments. Resulted in a fatal crash in the 1990s and the airframe was restricted from IMC until it was fixed.
The Army's attempt to field a replacement for the M16 is a well documented fiasco. I mean how hard can it be to field a new rifle??? In DC, very, very hard.

 

[Velocity173]

The entire military procurement process is a fiasco. A few examples come to mind.
When the Army purchased the UH-72 Lakota it came with a fuel flow indicator in the civilian version, the EC145. The Army did not have this in their specs so they insisted it be removed... at extra cost.
When fielding the UH60M the Army paid extra for the GPS to have fewer waypoints as the specs did not call for all the waypoints capability that was in the GPS. The Army then came back a few years later and asked that the GPS be put back to the original configuration with the capability for the extra waypoints, at extra expense. Oh, and the GPS is not IFR certified.
The "all weather" attack helicopter AH-64 was fielded without the capability to fly IFR.
The MH-47D was fielded with a glass cockpit. Both tubes ran off of one bus and there were no backup instruments. Resulted in a fatal crash in the 1990s and the airframe was restricted from IMC until it was fixed.
The Army's attempt to field a replacement for the M16 is a well documented fiasco. I mean how hard can it be to field a new rifle??? In DC, very, very hard.

I was always amazed how the M model didn't come with an IFR GPS. I thought it funny as well that the 128D didn't come precision capable.

Oh course many other failures for Army Aviation procurement such as the RAH-66, ARH and the C-27. Even the cancelation of the Cheyenne was a mistake. The test pilots who flew it were shocked when it was cancelled. Nothing at that time even came close to its capabilities. Don't even get me started on getting rid of the OH-58 and the TH-67.

 

[turbofan]

If you are asking this question, then you must not understand the current state of the AV-8B inventory.

I am no proponent of the F-35 (any variant) but the USMC has painted itself into the corner on this one.

I hear enough ******* and complaints from my friends that are Harrier dudes to have an idea. Interestingly, the Harrier fleet is younger than the legacy Hornet fleet. I'm not saying I don't think both need to be replaced (or have significant amounts of money invested in them), I just don't think the F-35B and the mix we are buying is the right answer.

 

[turbofan]

The entire military procurement process is a fiasco. A few examples come to mind.
When the Army purchased the UH-72 Lakota it came with a fuel flow indicator in the civilian version, the EC145. The Army did not have this in their specs so they insisted it be removed... at extra cost.
When fielding the UH60M the Army paid extra for the GPS to have fewer waypoints as the specs did not call for all the waypoints capability that was in the GPS. The Army then came back a few years later and asked that the GPS be put back to the original configuration with the capability for the extra waypoints, at extra expense. Oh, and the GPS is not IFR certified.
The "all weather" attack helicopter AH-64 was fielded without the capability to fly IFR.
The MH-47D was fielded with a glass cockpit. Both tubes ran off of one bus and there were no backup instruments. Resulted in a fatal crash in the 1990s and the airframe was restricted from IMC until it was fixed.
The Army's attempt to field a replacement for the M16 is a well documented fiasco. I mean how hard can it be to field a new rifle??? In DC, very, very hard.

Considering the military's focus on cost savings and energy savings, I always shake my head when 30 boxes of paper pubs gets delivered every couple months or so when all you need is a 20 ipad minis and ForeFlight. Don't worry though, the AC will be cut to your building even when it's 90 degrees outside.

 

[mikea]

The 60 Minutes story on the F-35: http://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/qTSyiLqWi9GnXF_h5EUm98xoWdCmpogp/is-the-f-35-worth-it-/

The major shock is the general who just began the revolutionary idea that the government will not pay Lockheed Martin to fix Lockheed Martin F ups.

Also that they had to do a re-engineering because the Nav lights didn't meet FAA specs. I guess at least least they were stealthy.

 

[kyleb]

I hear enough ******* and complaints from my friends that are Harrier dudes to have an idea. Interestingly, the Harrier fleet is younger than the legacy Hornet fleet. I'm not saying I don't think both need to be replaced (or have significant amounts of money invested in them), I just don't think the F-35B and the mix we are buying is the right answer.

The Marine's VSTOL requirement is a boondoggle IMO that has created a host of sacrifices which have impacted all of the other versions of the F-35. There had to be other options instead of compromising the entire program, but for whatever reason...

 

[EvilEagle]

Considering the military's focus on cost savings and energy savings, I always shake my head when 30 boxes of paper pubs gets delivered every couple months or so when all you need is a 20 ipad minis and ForeFlight. Don't worry though, the AC will be cut to your building even when it's 90 degrees outside.

Drives me nuts too.

I love using my iPad in my Bo, but a friend of mine cracked the screen on his during a training mission in the Eagle. I guess iPads aren't stressed for 9g's.

Seems like we could figure out how to just order the stuff we need/use most often. Or get a tougher iPad for us pointy nose drivers.

 

[Blackhawk]

Considering the military's focus on cost savings and energy savings, I always shake my head when 30 boxes of paper pubs gets delivered every couple months or so when all you need is a 20 ipad minis and ForeFlight. Don't worry though, the AC will be cut to your building even when it's 90 degrees outside.

Even worse. Our hanger at Ft Bragg was brand new and had a fancy automatic "cost saving" climate control system that we could not touch. In the middle of the summer the heat would kick in and in the dead of winter the A/C would run full blast. It was so bad at times we had to send people home due to the conditions.

 

[Blackhawk]

I was always amazed how the M model didn't come with an IFR GPS. I thought it funny as well that the 128D didn't come precision capable.

Oh course many other failures for Army Aviation procurement such as the RAH-66, ARH and the C-27. Even the cancelation of the Cheyenne was a mistake. The test pilots who flew it were shocked when it was cancelled. Nothing at that time even came close to its capabilities. Don't even get me started on getting rid of the OH-58 and the TH-67.

The RAH-66 cancellation I understand. Army Aviation sold its soul for that aircraft. There were ASE needs identified in the first Gulf War that were not addressed due to the RAH-66 and cost lives in Iraq. Every time I attended a brief on the RAH-66 all I heard was how technical it was, nothing about what it would do for war fighting.
The C-27 was the typical Washington fiasco. It was a need identified by the Army for years and unfulfilled by the Air Force. The playout of what happened is identical to what happened with the Carribou in the 1960s. The Army took the cancelled RAH-66 money and invested it in the C-27. The Air Force said great idea, we want in. Let's make it a joint project. Then a few years later the Air Force says hey, we have fixed wing expertise the Army doesn't have, why don't we run this project. The Army COS not knowing the history of the Carribou says sure, let's let the Air Force run it. A few more years go by and the Air Force gets congress to cancel the project to fund the F-35, because they really need a new fighter. So the Army sees the C-27 go away as the Air Force, in the words of Bugs Bunny says "What a maroon" and uses thr RAH-66 money for fighters.

 

[35 AoA]

Drives me nuts too.

I love using my iPad in my Bo, but a friend of mine cracked the screen on his during a training mission in the Eagle. I guess iPads aren't stressed for 9g's.

Seems like we could figure out how to just order the stuff we need/use most often. Or get a tougher iPad for us pointy nose drivers.

I know of a guy who FOD'd the crap out of his jet.....ipad went flying forward on a trap (wasn't secured in his helmet bag), hit the giant 27,000 inch display that the two seat Rhinos have in the back, and both screens were destroyed in the process.

 

[Velocity173]

I know of a guy who FOD'd the crap out of his jet.....ipad went flying forward on a trap (wasn't secured in his helmet bag), hit the giant 27,000 inch display that the two seat Rhinos have in the back, and both screens were destroyed in the process.

You all need the military version of the ipad; the EDM. Instead of spending the money and putting this in the panel where it should be, they just added it as an afterthought. Just another thing that's gonna be bouncing around the cockpit in a crash.

 

[Velocity173]

The RAH-66 cancellation I understand. Army Aviation sold its soul for that aircraft. There were ASE needs identified in the first Gulf War that were not addressed due to the RAH-66 and cost lives in Iraq. Every time I attended a brief on the RAH-66 all I heard was how technical it was, nothing about what it would do for war fighting.
The C-27 was the typical Washington fiasco. It was a need identified by the Army for years and unfulfilled by the Air Force. The playout of what happened is identical to what happened with the Carribou in the 1960s. The Army took the cancelled RAH-66 money and invested it in the C-27. The Air Force said great idea, we want in. Let's make it a joint project. Then a few years later the Air Force says hey, we have fixed wing expertise the Army doesn't have, why don't we run this project. The Army COS not knowing the history of the Carribou says sure, let's let the Air Force run it. A few more years go by and the Air Force gets congress to cancel the project to fund the F-35, because they really need a new fighter. So the Army sees the C-27 go away as the Air Force, in the words of Bugs Bunny says "What a maroon" and uses thr RAH-66 money for fighters.

While I liked all the goodies we got when the Comanche was cancelled, I still think it should've entered service. Another aircraft that when you read the flight test reports, it was way ahead of anything out there. Stealthy, twice as much range, more fire power, more time on station and 70 kts faster than a 58. It would have been our "F-22", except it would have actually been relevant in the last two wars.

Replacing KWs with UAVs and a few more Apaches is putting all your eggs in one basket in my opinion. KWs had the highest optempo of any Army aircraft in theater. I'd bet anything that they flew more hours than any aircraft in theater, period. Here I thought I was doing good at 875 hrs but I had friends in KWs who logged 1,200 hrs for the year. No UAV can replace eyes on at 300 feet above troops in contact. A UAV isn't going to be as successful doing a route recon / convoy escort. Too many limitations in the viewing FOV and fire and maneuver of a UAV.

Hopefully we can salvage the procurement disaster we've had in recent years with the future lift platform. I was glad to hear that program is untouchable in the Army's budget right now. V-280 or S-97, I don't care, just get that thing in service. No reason why the Marines are utilizing the latest in troop transport in the Osprey and the Army isn't. I think the Army made a good decision in staying out of the Osprey mess in the 90s, but now it's time to get on board with a pusher or tilt-rotor. Unfortunately, I fear whichever aircraft they choose will have it's own cost and OR rate problems that the Osprey has.

 

[nauga]

I know of a guy who FOD'd the crap out of his jet.....ipad went flying forward on a trap...

That's scarier than EvilEagle's low fuel/cold water story.

Nauga,
absolutely shattered

 

[Henning]

"Of the total 2012 federal spending, firms received federal contracts to perform $27.3 billion worth of work in Maryland, making Maryland the fourth largest recipient of federal procurement dollars. The largest federal contractor, Bethesda-based Lockheed Martin Corp., which was awarded contracts valued at $1.8 billion in Maryland and a total of $36 billion nationwide, employs about 5,000 people in Montgomery County alone."

"Given its proximity to Washington, DC and the many federal institutions within
Maryland, the federal government contributes substantially to the State’s economy. In federal fiscal year (FFY) 2007, the federal government expended $70.6 billion in Maryland, or $12,569 as measured on a per capita basis. This amount was about 50% greater than the national per capital average of $8,339, ranking Maryland third highest overall after Virginia and Alaska. The
substantial influence of the federal government on the State is the focus of this analysis – changes in federal government expenditures will likely have a disproportionate influence on the State’s economy and can cause changes in the economy that are unexpected given prevailing economic conditions."

Interesting reading on the amount of money being sucked up by the DC area from the "fly over country".

http://dls.state.md.us/data/polanas...f-Federal-Government-on-Marylands-Economy.pdf

Everything and everybody in the military or taking benefits is also sucking on the Govt tit. Everyone is on the govt tit to some extent.

 

[EvilEagle]

You all need the military version of the ipad; the EDM. Instead of spending the money and putting this in the panel where it should be, they just added it as an afterthought. Just another thing that's gonna be bouncing around the cockpit in a crash.

No way they'll let ejection seat guys wear that thing. They won't even let us put an extra cushion on it for pond crossings because the extra accel time of the seat would break (some) femurs if you did have to punch.

Maybe we could use it for non-maneuvering phases of flight or something. Still seems like it could be smaller.

We'll be able to put maps on our new passive/active sensor display. Now it's just a matter of finding digital maps in the right format... I'm sure that will be easy.

 

[Henning]

No way they'll let ejection seat guys wear that thing. They won't even let us put an extra cushion on it for pond crossings because the extra accel time of the seat would break (some) femurs if you did have to punch.

Maybe we could use it for non-maneuvering phases of flight or something. Still seems like it could be smaller.

We'll be able to put maps on our new passive/active sensor display. Now it's just a matter of finding digital maps in the right format... I'm sure that will be easy.

We pretty much 3D mapped the whole world with the Space Shuttle, everybody else is already making charts off the data. You would think that the system they chose would be compatible wit the data they already produced on DOD$$$...

 

[Velocity173]

No way they'll let ejection seat guys wear that thing. They won't even let us put an extra cushion on it for pond crossings because the extra accel time of the seat would break (some) femurs if you did have to punch.

Maybe we could use it for non-maneuvering phases of flight or something. Still seems like it could be smaller.

We'll be able to put maps on our new passive/active sensor display. Now it's just a matter of finding digital maps in the right format... I'm sure that will be easy.

Lol! Sounds like the same problem we had in Black Hawks. I imagine not nearly as uncomfortable as an ejection seat, but after a few hours of flying, it's like sitting on a brick. We complained and wanted to modify the seat with an extra cushion. Gotta letter from Red Stone saying the seats are specifically designed with a certain thickness to protect the spine in a crash. No modification from the original design was allowed.

EDM is OK. Provides a decent SA of units and airspace but after a couple of months in theater we had the AO memorized and didn't need it. I think the Army is just recently getting past it's EMI issues and allowing iPads in the cockpit.

 

[Blackhawk]

Everything and everybody in the military or taking benefits is also sucking on the Govt tit. Everyone is on the govt tit to some extent.

The difference is that defense is one of the few constitutional functions of the government and the basic function of a government. Everything else is pretty much legalized plunder.