The mythical affordable LSA?

http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/Medical_certification_FAQ.pdf

Pretty absolute statement. No faith in the above proposal?


None whatsoever. The previous FAA administrator described it using the phrase "dead on arrival". Reservations of both myself and others are detailed in other threads.

I honestly doubt the 3rd class is the big driver in the declination of GA. It's just Odin-awful expensive. The LSA thing might have helped a bit, since you can get new airplanes for 100K intend of a quarter million and up. That will translate to the used market eventually. But as others have commented, that was not the FAA's intention. I suspect it is far too little way too late.
 
If you're willing to go 2stroke(fine by me BTW) you can get into the 2 seat 'fat ultralights' that LSA & SP were adopted to address used around $5000.


Yes, there was a two tour Vietnam fighter jock that had a Challenger he flew around a good bit. I got to know him a little and he was a great guy. People made comments about how far he had sunk from an F4 to that, but he had no medical and was able to fly. I felt sorry for the guy, but respected him for many reasons, not the least of which was HIS respect for the law.

Anyway, last time I saw him, he said it was for sale and he wanted $4000 for it. Although it's not something I would want to fly, it DOES offer someone an affordable way to break the bonds of Earth.
 
None whatsoever. The previous FAA administrator described it using the phrase "dead on arrival". Reservations of both myself and others are detailed in other threads.

I honestly doubt the 3rd class is the big driver in the declination of GA. It's just Odin-awful expensive. The LSA thing might have helped a bit, since you can get new airplanes for 100K intend of a quarter million and up. That will translate to the used market eventually. But as others have commented, that was not the FAA's intention. I suspect it is far too little way too late.


$100k acquisition cost, plus operating and maintenance costs is a lot to pay to "fly around the patch". LSA is a dead end for travelling aviation, but that's what the FAA, and DHS want.
 
Another vote for the Vans RV-12 as an LSA. It's a very capable aircraft and the removable wings are a big plus.
 
If one has to assemble their own aircraft to get in the game, we've lost.
 
Anyway, last time I saw him, he said it was for sale and he wanted $4000 for it. Although it's not something I would want to fly, it DOES offer someone an affordable way to break the bonds of Earth.

Here's a quote from a bygone era of Internet, by Terry "SCAV" Naughton:

Message 154 Tue Jun 14, 1994
T.NAUGHTON [Scavenger] at 01:58 EDT

(. . .) Years went by, many years. John Wayne and the Flying Tigers became just an unfulfilled childhood dream remembered vaguely at air shows and flying movies with the kids.

Then in 1981 I read about a new kind of flying. New technology had made what started as a motorized hangglider in to a real flying machine. The aircraft looked much like the Curtis Pusher of 1910-1920 era. Light but extremely strong fabrics and aluminum tubing had created an aircraft that weighed less than 300 lb. powered by an engine that could create a rate of climb of 1500 ft. per minute. Full controls had been developed giving three axis flight. Rudder, aileron, elevator. The pilot sat in the open like the early Curtis.

I decided to go for it. While I was taking my lessons I met a man who flew dive bombers in W.W.II and had spent most of his life as a test pilot for Douglas Aircraft and a commercial pilot. He told me one day, "don't regret the adventure you think you missed. Flying stopped being flying a long time ago. Flying became the act of managing an aircraft" which to him was not flying. He said "Have you ever noticed those tiny windows in modern aircraft"? That's because flying has become something done inside the aircraft with instruments and communications. The modern pilot is not looking out his windows experiencing the joy of flying. He said that was I was learning to do now was more flying than many get in a lifetime. Sitting on a seat, under a wing, with full controls acting and reacting to the elements is the essence of flight.

He had a beautiful new ultralight with a ballistic rocket parachute which could be deployed in an emergency to bring pilot and plane down safely. So I practiced and learned and finally soloed. The next day I was back out at the field to build up my solo time. My friend was also at the field getting used to his new plane. He came over as I was pre-flightiness my aircraft and suggested that we take a little flight together.

Our aircraft were parked side by side on the field. We both climbed aboard. Merl started his engine as did I. We both pulled on our helmets and goggles. A quick control check stick back and forth, right and left, full rudder right and left, engine advance and then back to idle. Merl pulled his goggles down and into place and then looked over to me. He reached out with a gloved hand and then extended his right hand thumb extended indicating his readiness to taxi. I extended my hand and returned a thumbs up to indicate that my dream was, after 50 years, about to become reality. We brought up the throttles and taxied side by side out onto the grass field. As one we advanced our throttles and side by side we moved down the field rapidly picking up speed. Our planes became light, with a slight bounce of wheels we were airborne. We cleared the edge of the field rising toward the setting sun. I looked down to the fields richly bathed in the early evening light. For just a fleeting moment I was sure I could see the coolies waving from the rice fields as we climbed wing to wing for one last battle with the Empire of the Sun.
 
$100k acquisition cost, plus operating and maintenance costs is a lot to pay to "fly around the patch". LSA is a dead end for travelling aviation, but that's what the FAA, and DHS want.

Not necessarily. I fly the Jabiru any place I've taken other airplanes. Just got back from NE Iowa, 1300nm round trip. Cedar City, UT in two weeks. Planning on several more this year. Two people and bags works OK. I flew back alone from CA last year and put 4 cases of wine in back. There are limitations but Deb didn't like IMC anyway. I do miss the ability to fly at night.
 
Not necessarily. I fly the Jabiru any place I've taken other airplanes. Just got back from NE Iowa, 1300nm round trip. Cedar City, UT in two weeks. Planning on several more this year. Two people and bags works OK. I flew back alone from CA last year and put 4 cases of wine in back. There are limitations but Deb didn't like IMC anyway. I do miss the ability to fly at night.
I know people who fly LSAs (Evektor and GX) while keeping their 2nd class medicals, so they fly at night. In fact, tracking one of them a FlightAware I notice that he files IFR plan from time to time. They say it's way cheaper than traditional light singles if you find a way to amortise the insane purchase price. One of them switched from a Baron, which helped to offset the necessary cash, I'm sure. Fortunately both have panel lights.

P.S. At LSA Expo 2012, I saw a Tecnam Sierra - an S-LSA with full IFR panel and standby alternator. I happen to know that Sierra has a type certificate in Russia, where the government has no separate LSA regulations, and everything operated must have a "type" defined from Sierra to An-124.
 
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I know people who fly LSAs (Evektor and GX) while keeping their 2nd class medicals, so they fly at night. In fact, tracking one of them a FlightAware I notice that he files IFR plan from time to time. They say it's way cheaper than traditional light singles if you find a way to amortise the insane purchase price. One of them switched from a Baron, which helped to offset the necessary cash, I'm sure. Fortunately both have panel lights.

P.S. At LSA Expo 2012, I saw a Tecnam Sierra - an S-LSA with full IFR panel and standby alternator. I happen to know that Sierra has a type certificate in Russia, where the government has no separate LSA regulations, and everything operated must have a "type" defined from Sierra to An-124.

My J230 is night equiped, just not the pilot.:(
 
Well then, maybe you've lost, but only because you quit. Not much worry about being relegated to it though. Regular GA is not that dear to a person in the top half of five figures.
 
I know people who fly LSAs (Evektor and GX) while keeping their 2nd class medicals, so they fly at night. In fact, tracking one of them a FlightAware I notice that he files IFR plan from time to time. They say it's way cheaper than traditional light singles if you find a way to amortise the insane purchase price. One of them switched from a Baron, which helped to offset the necessary cash, I'm sure. Fortunately both have panel lights.

P.S. At LSA Expo 2012, I saw a Tecnam Sierra - an S-LSA with full IFR panel and standby alternator. I happen to know that Sierra has a type certificate in Russia, where the government has no separate LSA regulations, and everything operated must have a "type" defined from Sierra to An-124.

Some of us simply have different mission requirements. I just want to putz down to Key West or over to Everglades City for stone crabs. I'm a retired airline pilot. If I want to go to California, I'll just show up at the airport and get on an airliner ( free.... ).

LSA makes sense for me, but sadly, $100K won't buy the top end of a new one any more. Totally opted out,you are now talking $150K. I talking about Evektor,Breezer,and BRISTELL. Even I can't make that $$$$ leap seem reasonable. For $150K, you can get a pretty nice Bonanza that even looks new. But.... It still burns too much fuel. Just can't compare operating costs.

On paper, you just can't beat my flying club. Two Archers, self scheduling, call for a ride home if it breaks down somewhere (we commandeer the other one to come get you...), all for $100hr WET.

It just doesn't satisfy the soul though. Sigh.
 
Some of us simply have different mission requirements. I just want to putz down to Key West or over to Everglades City for stone crabs. I'm a retired airline pilot. If I want to go to California, I'll just show up at the airport and get on an airliner ( free.... ).

LSA makes sense for me, but sadly, $100K won't buy the top end of a new one any more. Totally opted out,you are now talking $150K. I talking about Evektor,Breezer,and BRISTELL. Even I can't make that $$$$ leap seem reasonable. For $150K, you can get a pretty nice Bonanza that even looks new. But.... It still burns too much fuel. Just can't compare operating costs.

On paper, you just can't beat my flying club. Two Archers, self scheduling, call for a ride home if it breaks down somewhere (we commandeer the other one to come get you...), all for $100hr WET.

It just doesn't satisfy the soul though. Sigh.

Your mission statement can be fulfilled with a 100knot trainer. Cherokee 140 burning 8 gals of mogas, can be had for less than 30K.

As to satisfying the soul, perhaps an RV would be the natural step up, with enough roll and pitch response to allow light acro. Same fuel burn and mogas. Bare bones one for 60K.

Owner-experimental would really be beneficial to GA IMO.
 
Oh boy! My thread came back to life!

What I think is interesting is that some of those LSAs that were selling new for well north of $100k are now coming down in price on the used market. For example, all these are asking under $60k (and the first one is even just a tad under $50k):

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-INDUS-AVIATION-INC-THORPEDO-T211/1241451.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SPORTSTAR/2005-EVEKTOR-SPORTSTAR/1233285.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SPORTSTAR/2006-EVEKTOR-SPORTSTAR/1253467.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TEC-322-FAETA/2007-ATEC-322-FAETA/1249613.htm

Naturally, $60k is still a serious chunk of change. But it's much less than $100k-150k.
 
* Allegro 2007. Last time time I checked it was $72k. It's more like $80..85k now, but still noticeably cheaper than Quasar. It's built in North Carolina, and honestly, it's as cheap as 1942 Cub. But it's a great performer aerodynamically, if you can get over the lack of amenities and the center Y-stick. It's basically the lowest point of what can be called a real airplane.

You can buy two nice cubs for that price.

They put a lot of hours on the allegros at our home field. I considered flying one for about thirty seconds once.
 
Newer isnt always better FYI.

I've flown a few planes designed to be LSA and I was very disappointed, flew Pipers and Cessnas offerings and both felt cheap, didnt fly very well and the piper even had some disproportionate controls.

Maybe it's a difference between how people think a aircraft should feel and fly, but the older designs (minus the carbon cubs) just feel much more solid and fly a ton better.

How about a Aeronca Chief for under 20k with low TT and a few hundred SMOH? OR get that same plane spend 15k for to make it basically like new, but with leather, nice GPS, etc, now you're at 35k and you have a far stronger, more capable aircraft that is going to hold it's value!


Buying new, or even late model aircraft tends to only be done by low TT guys with far more money then brains.

One other note, if you arnt putting on at least 20hrs a month, it would be wise to stay away from, IMC, anything RG, anything over 110kt cruse, or night, it'll probably reduce the chance of showing up in the NTSB reports and probably provide a less stressful and more enjoyable flight for ya
 
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Newer isnt always better FYI.

I've flown a few planes designed to be LSA and I was very disappointed, flew Pipers and Cessnas offerings and both felt cheap, didnt fly very well and the piper even had some disproportionate controls.

I had the opposite experince. At first I thought LSA's were nothing more than glorified UL, but then I took a SportCrusier up (AKA Piper Sport) & I LOVED it!! The controls take some getting used to because it really is a light aircraft & the take-off roll is longer on hot Summer days because the Rotax 912 only has 100hp.

However, after learning how to fly the aircraft & getting used to the controls, it has been a joy to fly! Going from a Piper Cherokee to a SportCrusier is like going from a 4 door sedan to a motorcycle.

I will own my own aircraft one day & it will be a RV-12, an LSA.
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2
 
Newer isnt always better FYI.

I've flown a few planes designed to be LSA and I was very disappointed, flew Pipers and Cessnas offerings and both felt cheap, didnt fly very well and the piper even had some disproportionate controls.

Maybe it's a difference between how people think a aircraft should feel and fly, but the older designs (minus the carbon cubs) just feel much more solid and fly a ton better.

It all depends on what you flew. I fly Tecnams, and they fly beautifully.
 
Oh boy! My thread came back to life!

What I think is interesting is that some of those LSAs that were selling new for well north of $100k are now coming down in price on the used market. For example, all these are asking under $60k (and the first one is even just a tad under $50k):

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-INDUS-AVIATION-INC-THORPEDO-T211/1241451.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SPORTSTAR/2005-EVEKTOR-SPORTSTAR/1233285.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SPORTSTAR/2006-EVEKTOR-SPORTSTAR/1253467.htm

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TEC-322-FAETA/2007-ATEC-322-FAETA/1249613.htm

Naturally, $60k is still a serious chunk of change. But it's much less than $100k-150k.

What is the predicted end life of most LSAs? I don't know except for looking them over at the shows but I'd suspect they last more like present day cars than current GA which really stretches the definition of 'Durable Good' to ridiculous dimensions.
 
Some of us simply have different mission requirements. I just want to putz down to Key West or over to Everglades City for stone crabs. I'm a retired airline pilot. If I want to go to California, I'll just show up at the airport and get on an airliner ( free.... ).

LSA makes sense for me, but sadly, $100K won't buy the top end of a new one any more. Totally opted out,you are now talking $150K. I talking about Evektor,Breezer,and BRISTELL. Even I can't make that $$$$ leap seem reasonable. For $150K, you can get a pretty nice Bonanza that even looks new. But.... It still burns too much fuel. Just can't compare operating costs.

On paper, you just can't beat my flying club. Two Archers, self scheduling, call for a ride home if it breaks down somewhere (we commandeer the other one to come get you...), all for $100hr WET.

It just doesn't satisfy the soul though. Sigh.

You didn't use to race hydros did ya ?
 
What is the predicted end life of most LSAs? I don't know except for looking them over at the shows but I'd suspect they last more like present day cars than current GA which really stretches the definition of 'Durable Good' to ridiculous dimensions.

Eh, depends on how well the vehicle is cared for. My dad had a truck that lasted for 20 years, Hel when my brother sold it, it was still running. The same would apply to airplanes. Take good care of the aircraft, make sure the fluids are at an acceptable level, the airframe is in good shape, that you have the annual done every year, and the aircraft should last you as long as the J-3 cub (or more).
 
Indus... I never was a fan. Also, Jabiru engine (typoed in the ad).

Canadian airplane, I pass.

Hmm. This looks attractive - a SportStar with 635 hours. The question is how well it was kept. I'd give this a look if I was in the market.

This sounds like a remarkable deal for 37 TTAE, but it has downsides. The airplane wasn't flying since it was bought, so do you think the engine may have corrosion inside? Also, it's an oddball without support, how are your composite fabrication skills? I'd rather take the Evektor, split flaps and all. It's a known quality.

Naturally, $60k is still a serious chunk of change. But it's much less than $100k-150k.
Well yeah, but you listed examples in 600 hour range. Sure, with proper care it can last... N28GX racked 800 hours in 3 years, passed a few dozens of PP and SP students to checkrides. But I can tell the airplane is getting older: one of fairings is showing a discoloration from exhaust throwing oil. Another 1000 hours and it's time to think about a new engine. She was new 3 years ago when Michale paid $135k for her. Now, I'd say $60..70k is fair.

A year ago I had an opportunity to buy a SportStar with 225 hours for $72k asking price after a local CFI freelancer threw in the towel. You'd think a 600+ hour bird would be a bit cheaper in this market, and that's the only one on your list that I liked from the ad.
 
I just posted an article in my blog about an affordable flying LSA.

I always thought that if I was going LSA and I just wanted to putt around by myself, I'd take $10,000 and buy a nice Kolb Firestar and fly off into the sunset with my wallet intact. They look like fun and I hear they fly well.

I know these aren't for everyone and represent the low performance end of LSA - closer to an Ultralight, but still a blast.
 
Plenty of cheap options. People are lame and want to justify their inaction.
 
Plenty of cheap options. People are lame and want to justify their inaction.


Do you have any examples? And I'm not just talking acquisition cost, I mean everything.
 
Do you have any examples? And I'm not just talking acquisition cost, I mean everything.

There was that Chief for 10k. Brand new Msquared LSAs are 40k or so. Neither one is a Cirrus, yeah whatever. Everything but a Cirrus with magical LSA certifications and a price under 10 grand will be disqualified by the couch dwellers as insufficient for some reason. All an excuse for refusing action.
 
There was that Chief for 10k. Brand new Msquared LSAs are 40k or so. Neither one is a Cirrus, yeah whatever. Everything but a Cirrus with magical LSA certifications and a price under 10 grand will be disqualified by the couch dwellers as insufficient for some reason. All an excuse for refusing action.

As you can see, I'm already an aircraft owner, so not a couch dweller. A $10K Chief can potentially run you a lot in maintenance, then there is the hangar, insurance, fuel, engine, and airframe/covering reserves. Plus, is it really a travelling machine for people that want to go places, and take their family? Can you do that with an LSA? No.
 
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I always thought that if I was going LSA and I just wanted to putt around by myself, I'd take $10,000 and buy a nice Kolb Firestar and fly off into the sunset with my wallet intact. They look like fun and I hear they fly well.

I thought about Firefly in the past weeks, learned to fly tailwheel and signed up for Kolb-List. You are looking at about $40k with a full build by CustomAir. It's a real Kolb at M-Squared price, almost.

It has a couple of downsides, too. First, it either comes with 1/2 WV or Rotax 503 2-stroke. I don't appreciate either option for an airplane of Firestar's size.

More importantly, I don't quite understand how CustomAir offers RTF. There can be no such thing as RTF EX-AB, unless they "buy" the airplane from Kolb and build 51%, then resell it. Or it could be a 99% E-LSA. In order to offer E-LSA, they must own S-LSA, which is plain impossible, I think. I need to place a phone call to them to clear this up.
 
What is the predicted end life of most LSAs?
The fleet is too young to know how it plays out. But I am afraid that LSAs are not going to deprecate like cars, because of the pressure from the GA traditionals and GA infrastructure like hangars. We're too spoiled by "immortal" airplanes. I wish LSAs would fall all the way to one thousand dollars by the 2000 mark, written off or resold to less affluent pilots, but it does not seem to be happening.
 
As you can see, I'm already an aircraft owner, so not a couch dweller. A $10K Chief can potentially run you a lot in maintenance, then there is the hangar, insurance, fuel, engine, and airframe/covering reserves. Plus, is it really a travelling machine for people that want to go places, and take their family? Can you do that with an LSA? No.
If you need a Kingair, you need a Kingair. An LSA won't cut it.
 
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Good man!! Centerline !!

Meh. The centerline is overrated for taildraggers unless there are trees close to the runway (and I've landed where you need to be on your centerline discipline game fer' shur.) Barring that it's better to land to the side away from where you might careen when lowering the tail ;) Or even better land at a flight path angle favoring the wind. I once landed at Lethbridge in a real gale and I think I used more width than length.

Of course that becomes easier when your rollout is typically less than 400 feet.
 
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