The FAA Will Love This!

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"Big win for regulators at Supreme Court"

http://thehill.com/regulation/court...s-with-administration-in-rulemaking-challenge

Excerpt:

Regulators won a big victory at the Supreme Court on Monday as the justices endorsed expansive powers for changing the interpretation of federal rules.

The Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that federal agencies do not have to follow procedures for notifying the public and collecting comment when changing the interpretations of rules, effectively removing steps from the process that can take months and sometimes years to complete.
​
 
big loss for transparency
 
I'm not seeing that as any sort of a change from anything that's been held by the Federal courts in the past. All it seems to say is "Interpretation is not rulemaking," and nobody's ever held otherwise as long as the interpretation is not "arbitrary, capricious, or otherwise not according to law".
 
Will be good sometimes bad at other times. Further reinforces the need for each of us to stay in close contact with our representatives.
 
Could work to our advantage.eliminating ,the long waiting times.
 
It's certainly no change in the way the FAA has always operated.

The only downside is that the FAA not only gets to write (with perfunctory scrutiny), interpret, prosecute, and adjudicate but also they're interpretation is used at the appellate level as law. The latter however, may be changing, there has been some motion at the federal level on this (not with the FAA but other regulatory actions).
 
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FAA, ATF, IRS. . .most of the 3-letter agencies.

Gee, if only we had an elected body who has, as one of the *few* purposes listed in the Constitution, a responsibility to oversee the regulatory agencies. Instead we have 3-letter agencies who do what they want, testify (or not) before Congress, and then go right on doing what they want anyway.

Cynical? Gee, why would I be cynical?
 
9-0 vote. pretty cut and dry issue
 
Did they ever really listen to public comments and make significant changes on a regular basis to proposed rules?
(Please don't quote the one time you recall this happening; the question refers to something on a larger scale.)
 
I'm not seeing that as any sort of a change from anything that's been held by the Federal courts in the past. All it seems to say is "Interpretation is not rulemaking," and nobody's ever held otherwise as long as the interpretation is not "arbitrary, capricious, or otherwise not according to law".

I believe the D.C. Circuit Court that was overruled is a federal court.

"The decision contradicts the D.C. Circuit Court’s Paralyzed Veterans doctrine, which holds that an agency must use the APA’s notice-and-comment procedures when it wishes to issue a new interpretation of a regulation that deviates significantly from one previously adopted."​
 
So what I'm hearing is that you basically have no idea what the rules will be later based on what the rules are today. If they choose, they can change the interpretation of the rules in order to punish their enemies or protect their allies.

Regardless of which side you're on, does anyone want a government to run this way?
 
One can claim that interpretation is not rulemaking, but when you take an action that was previously legal and make it illegal because your interpretation changes (or vice versa), you are changing the rules.

Calling it an "interpretation" does not alter that fact. Even if your interpretation says it does.
 
Wasn't there some FAA rule change recently which never happened because just one person wrote a letter of dissent? I couldn't believe that would be true but others assured me that it is the way things are done in that instance. I can't even remember what it was about but we discussed it within the past few months.
 
Could be an ex post facto law then? If you do something legal, then have the rules changed so you are found to be guilty, that's pretty much what it is.

Not having the right to a jury trial was one of the abuses of King George that led to the United States being founded.
 
Wasn't there some FAA rule change recently which never happened because just one person wrote a letter of dissent? I couldn't believe that would be true but others assured me that it is the way things are done in that instance. I can't even remember what it was about but we discussed it within the past few months.
It was this thread.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78516

The FAA is withdrawing the direct final rule because the agency received adverse comments to the rule. The agency is obligated by Sec. 11.13 to withdraw a direct final rule if the agency receives any adverse comments.
 
Did they ever really listen to public comments and make significant changes on a regular basis to proposed rules?
Yes.
(Please don't quote the one time you recall this happening; the question refers to something on a larger scale.)
I don't have the time/interest to list all the rulemaking events when the FAA changed what was in the NPRM as a result of public comment, but my observation is that it happens more often than it doesn't.
 
Wasn't there some FAA rule change recently which never happened because just one person wrote a letter of dissent? I couldn't believe that would be true but others assured me that it is the way things are done in that instance. I can't even remember what it was about but we discussed it within the past few months.
Yes, and it involved a Direct Final Rule, which has very different rules than the normal NPRM/FR process, and which the APA specifically says cannot be adopted if there are any adverse comments (unless those comments are "insubstantial or frivolous".
 
The law isn't changing, just the interpretation of the law, and that's not subject to the ex post facto prohibition, since Congress hasn't changed the law.

Hmmmmm...
That is like a girl saying she is just a little bit pregnant...:mad2::mad2::mad2::rolleyes:
 
Hmmmmm...
That is like a girl saying she is just a little bit pregnant...:mad2::mad2::mad2::rolleyes:
Perhaps to you, but apparently not to the US Supreme Court, and they are the final arbiters of what the US Constitution means -- and they have now spoken definitively on this issue.
 
The law isn't changing, just the interpretation of the law, and that's not subject to the ex post facto prohibition, since Congress hasn't changed the law.



Didn't say it was unconstitutional. I said it was wrong and cost George his 13 colonies.
 
Didn't say it was unconstitutional. I said it was wrong and cost George his 13 colonies.
No, you asked if it was an ex post facto law, and I told you the Supreme Court says it isn't, and further the Supreme Court is the final arbiter on that issue. So, even if you personally feel it's "wrong", it's not an ex post facto law -- and that's the answer to the question you asked.
 
The ruling is exactly what one would expect from lawyers if you think about it.

If interpretations "stuck", there'd be lots less use for lawyers.

It's a big win for lawyers.

Anyone else reading it thinks, correctly: "So rules are rules until someone changes their mind."

And they'd be right. No lawyer wants set rules.

SCOTUS fed and clothed an entire new generation of their peers in one 9-0 decision. Forgone conclusion.

Can't let a chance to grow the business go by. Just like any other business.
 
Well, Nate, you certainly win the prize for cynicism!
 
As Justice Thomas observed, limits on agencies' power to make rules without a notice and comment period might be a good public policy, but it was the province of Congress to amend the APA to fix it, not the prerogative of the courts. Congress can fix it easily, if the will is there. If nothing else, this case should focus some attention on the issue of the scope of agency rulemaking and set up an interesting challenge to court deference to agency interpretation of rules, regs, and statutes.
 
As Justice Thomas observed, limits on agencies' power to make rules without a notice and comment period might be a good public policy, but it was the province of Congress to amend the APA to fix it, not the prerogative of the courts. Congress can fix it easily, if the will is there. If nothing else, this case should focus some attention on the issue of the scope of agency rulemaking and set up an interesting challenge to court deference to agency interpretation of rules, regs, and statutes.

It's within the Supreme Court's province to follow the Constitution as written, where it says (in the first sentence after the preamble!) that "all" federal legislative powers shall be vested in Congress, but they are typically very reluctant to discard longstanding precedent.
 
Well, Nate, you certainly win the prize for cynicism!


Just observation.

Seen a SCOTUS ever make a ruling that put a large sub-class of lawyers out of business, yet?

The system feeds itself. 30,000 new laws per year. Quite literally feeds itself.
 
Just observation.

Seen a SCOTUS ever make a ruling that put a large sub-class of lawyers out of business, yet?

The system feeds itself. 30,000 new laws per year. Quite literally feeds itself.

Voter apathy feeds the system. If the average voter would actually take interest in what they're "congressman for life" was actually voting on and take appropriate measures this wouldn't be happening.

Congress knows it's virtually impossible to throw out a incumbent. They know that the average voter is more concerned with celebrity worship or sports worshiping than what they are doing in DC.

Don't blame Congress, the real blame lies with the people who elect them.
 
Voter apathy feeds the system. If the average voter would actually take interest in what they're "congressman for life" was actually voting on and take appropriate measures this wouldn't be happening.

Congress knows it's virtually impossible to throw out a incumbent. They know that the average voter is more concerned with celebrity worship or sports worshiping than what they are doing in DC.

Don't blame Congress, the real blame lies with the people who elect them.


Right. Someone not completely bought and owned by the legal / legislative system and rich donors will magically make it through the Primaries and be an option to vote for. Sure.

Voter apathy is a completely normal reaction to a rigged game. They know there's no point. Both Parties are the same. And busting butt to get a third Party candidate to office isn't enough to counteract the Party maneuvers.

Plenty of good candidates inside any particular Party have had money spent against them in attack ads by their own Party to make sure they never saw their name printed on a ballot. The $15K a plate dinner donors run the show.
 
Right. Someone not completely bought and owned by the legal / legislative system and rich donors will magically make it through the Primaries and be an option to vote for. Sure.

Voter apathy is a completely normal reaction to a rigged game. They know there's no point. Both Parties are the same. And busting butt to get a third Party candidate to office isn't enough to counteract the Party maneuvers.

Plenty of good candidates inside any particular Party have had money spent against them in attack ads by their own Party to make sure they never saw their name printed on a ballot. The $15K a plate dinner donors run the show.

Love ya', Nate, but you're way out of line here.

*Some* lawyers do as you describe, but not enough to "control" government, per se. If a meaningful proportion of the populace were to (1) educate themselves about how government functions, and (2) contact their elected representatives with meaningful and articulate advocacy and commentary, you might be surprised what they could accomplish.

Ask any legislative aide to a member of congress how many of their constituents bother to contact them about *anything*, and you'll understand the problem.
 
Ask any legislative aide to a member of congress how many of their constituents bother to contact them about *anything*, and you'll understand the problem.

Well, why should I bother contacting them, when they don't actually bother to listen to what I was contacting them about? I called and wrote to each of my three congress critters on one of the GA user fee proposals a few years back.

Two of them responded with canned "airline safety" letters, and neither letter addressed what I was actually contacting them about. The one that did actually read my letter was not a Democrat, I mean on the House aviation subcommittee, so his pulmonary system hadn't evolved to the point of being able to process methane and hydrogen sulfide.

Why bother if they don't even listen to what you say?
 
Ask any legislative aide to a member of congress how many of their constituents bother to contact them about *anything*, and you'll understand the problem.


Ask any legislative aide if they think they are part of the problem in any way.
 
Love ya', Nate, but you're way out of line here.



*Some* lawyers do as you describe, but not enough to "control" government, per se. If a meaningful proportion of the populace were to (1) educate themselves about how government functions, and (2) contact their elected representatives with meaningful and articulate advocacy and commentary, you might be surprised what they could accomplish.



Ask any legislative aide to a member of congress how many of their constituents bother to contact them about *anything*, and you'll understand the problem.


All the lawyers I know who've gone *into politics* do it. They have a singular skillset and only know how to apply *that skillset* to problems. Anything can be fixed by a new law and new arguments with other legal peers *in politics*. They rarely come up with smarter solutions.

As far as constituents contacting anyone in politics with meaningful and well articulated advocacy, have you tried lately? There's a wall of eternal BS form letters and protections against the masses that's amazing in its ability to stop communication from occurring when a constituency is millions of people.

You might get a personal note from a local politician but, and you know this is true, the only people getting even 5 minutes of real communication with the bloated Federal level representative power base, are those spending $15/plate for dinner.

I wrote a detailed letter to my *State* level Attorney General's office about a problem that's simple to define, easy to replicate, and easy to fix, that's allowing criminals to get away with quite a bit of stuff. I won't go into how I know, but here's the response to the four identical letters:

- DMV / County Clerk - two personal phone calls thanking me for reporting the problem, one from the elected Clerk himself. He said he immediately saw what was wrong and he can stop it at his office.

- State of Colorado DMV - no response.

- Local Sheriff - no response. Letter included information on how to catch two criminals and I didn't expect a response here because it would trigger an investigation and then they can't discuss it with me. Makes sense.

- State Attorney General - Form letter thanking me for reporting business to consumer fraud, which isn't at all what the original letter was about at all.

That's all LOCAL. Try that at the Federal level and see if you can send anything constructive to a Congresscritter and their staff even understand it.

I've got four or five letters from Congressional staffers that I should frame because they're so far off the topic I originally sent letters about, that they're beyond sad.

My favorite so far was a letter about, again, another easy to see, easy to reproduce, easy to explain, and concise letter about an FCC procedural problem. I got a form letter back from the Congressman's office thanking me for my letter and confirming the HDTV cutover dates. LOL.

If Congress and their staff are saying they don't get any feedback from anyone, perhaps they've cranked the form letter BS volume control well past 11.

I do know this. You pay that $15k and go to the dinner and there's going to be a staffer with a pen and paper standing there actually listening and writing down your concerns for a follow up.

Money talks, bull**** walks. And that's what I mean by "bought and paid". You don't pay, your letter will be sorted into one of the "form letter response piles" for whatever stupidity is airing on Cable News that month and that's he form letter you'll get. Getting heard? No. Not going to happen.

I don't doubt your assertion that *most* lawyers don't play. Most lawyers don't run for public office either. The ones that do, aren't even the best lawyers. They're usually the lawyers that couldn't hack it at their own profession.

Those are the lawyers we end up having writing laws. Who are listening only to $15/plate donors.

Think that's a recipe for utter stupidity on a massive scale? I think so.
 
Perhaps to you, but apparently not to the US Supreme Court, and they are the final arbiters of what the US Constitution means -- and they have now spoken definitively on this issue.

Actually the people are the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution. They have invested SCOTUS with the power to interpret the Constitution, but ultimately they can take back that power if SCOTUS fooks it up badly enough.
 
Actually the people are the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution. They have invested SCOTUS with the power to interpret the Constitution, but ultimately they can take back that power if SCOTUS fooks it up badly enough.

But you have to remember that Ron will never question authority. He's been programmed to accept anything as gospel from the government. If he ever questions the government, you know the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark where the finally open it? Yeah, he's afraid that will happen to him if he questions the government.
 
In another thread, he just the other day took heat from some fellow posters for questioning a DPE during an oral. Since DPEs act on behalf of the government, I think that qualifies as questioning the government.
 
If it's the thread I'm thinking of, he said he had 0 issue with the DPE.
 
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