The Civil War (no offense meant)

[Dave Siciliano]

I've been reading trough Shelby Foote's three volume narrative on the Civil War and am completely engrossed in it. He has a wonderful perspective that is in marked contrast to other works I've read on the subject. He goes into depth on how Lincoln and Davis interacted with their generals; describes the setback and how some things went one way or another on the battle field for completely unexpected reasons.

I'd love to point out some passages. I'll have to look back to cite them. Wonderful perspective on how each leader dealt with very challenging political situations; examples of how Lincoln effectuated some situations in a manner that made it look like the free will of the other party were excellent.

A recent passage that really made an impression was when one Southern commander appealed to another for a diversion (Pemberton to Bragg). Bragg responded: ..by sending Forrest instructions to "throw his command rapidly over the Tennessee River and precipitate it upon the enemy's lines, break up rail roads, burn bridges, destroy depots, capture hospitals and guards, and harass him generally". (Volume two; page 65-66).

Ahhhh, the good old days!! Military orders I would have loved to have received back when I was on active duty.

And, Nathan Bedford Forrest performed them exquisitely from the Southern perspective at the expense of Grant<g>

One impression I have gained is how completely out matched the South was from the men and material perspective. At almost every turn, Union Armies were well manned, supplied and armed. Lincoln at one turn called for 300,000 volunteers. Lee only had 70,000 protecting Richmond.

In most matches, up to 1863 (which is where I am in the books), Union troops outnumber Southern forces by two to one or more. Union forces had supply trains bringing good quantities of weapons, ammunition, food and other supplies. The South was in a much less fortunate position. An advantage the South did have was it's internal RR system which could shuttle troops a supplies quickly from one point to another. As their defensive area got smaller, their RR system could respond faster (up to this point in the war).

Best,

Dave

 

[dmccormack]

The Civil War is an endless mines of historical treasures.

Have you been to Gettysburg yet? If not -- it's a great time to fly up!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Dunno if you have seen Ken Burn's Civil War documentary (9 parts), but Mr. Shelby Foote is what really made the series (IMO). I was thinking I should track down a set of his books.

An awful war all around.

Netflix has the series on line.

 

[Graueradler]

It seems like that was such a long time ago but it is less than two long life spans. There must be people still living who knew civil war veterans. I am only 2 generations removed from the war. My grandfather went through the entire war. First with the 27th Indiana Infantry and later with the U.S 3rd Artillery, Battery C. He was never injured but had poor health for the rest of his life. Some of the medicines used may have kept people alive but had long term negative effects (such as calomel which contained mercury). Unfortunately, he died before I came along.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

The Civil War is an endless mines of historical treasures.

Have you been to Gettysburg yet? If not -- it's a great time to fly up!

I haven't been up there. May have to after reading about it. Been to Vicksburg and several of the smaller battle fields in NC. Will probably go to Vicksburg again after reading this. It's wonderful to see and walk the fortifications. I can envision what the troops were doing and the will power it took to do it. I always leave sad, but glad I went.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dunno if you have seen Ken Burn's Civil War documentary (9 parts), but Mr. Shelby Foote is what really made the series (IMO). I was thinking I should track down a set of his books.

An awful war all around.

Netflix has the series on line.

Yes, I have seen that and it's one reason I purchaseg this three volume set. As I understand it, it's the only major work written by someone from the South. Much different perspective than some other works I've read.

BTW, in talking about this to some local folk, may still cite stories of relatives that served and relate their stories with great pride.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

It seems like that was such a long time ago but it is less than two long life spans. There must be people still living who knew civil war veterans. I am only 2 generations removed from the war. My grandfather went through the entire war. First with the 27th Indiana Infantry and later with the U.S 3rd Artillery, Battery C. He was never injured but had poor health for the rest of his life. Some of the medicines used may have kept people alive but had long term negative effects (such as calomel which contained mercury). Unfortunately, he died before I came along.

There are some passages relating to Indiana troops in some actions described. Amazing to hear about the tactics used and how well some troops fought--even green troops that stood their ground. Of course, many tales of the opposite. At this part of the book actions take place in Kentucky and Tennessee as well as Virginia and Maryland. Just finished reading about Fredrickburg.

Best,

Dave

 

[dmccormack]

I haven't been up there. May have to after reading about it. Been to Vicksburg and several of the smaller battle fields in NC. Will probably go to Vicksburg again after reading this. It's wonderful to see and walk the fortifications. I can envision what the troops were doing and the will power it took to do it. I always leave sad, but glad I went.

Best,

Dave

If you go to Gettysburg, make it worthwhile and hire a Licensed Battlefield Guide. Tell them your military background and you will get the real tour.

The Army War College used to do staff rides (not sure if they still do?) I was fortunate to go one one as a mere Captain and was amazed at what I learned that day.

 

[Keith Lane]

No offense taken......

Dave, If you ever get to Atlanta, I urge you to try to fly into RYY on the north side, and take a day to visit Chickamauga, 75 minutes north of there, and then Kennesaw mountain National Battlefield Park. Both are excellent battlefield parks. At Kennesaw, there are trails that you can walk to the summit and the trench lines are still clearly visible. Gettysburg is very sobering when especially when you stand at the treeline from which Pickett's charge started. These poor guys walked hundreds of yards in the open looking directly at the Yankee lines, and did it anyway. Carnage, pure and simple.
Walking these sites, gives me a sense of perspective and awe at how brave and committed these people were to their respective causes.
As a child in Georgia, I can tell you we were always told how proud we should be of being southerners (much like Texans are of being Texans). We even got out of school for Confederate Memorial day. My wife who grew up on Plattsburg, NY, knew NOTHING of the Civil War. She said they studied it for a week or so and moved on. She used to take offense when I called i he War of Northern Aggression. She has gotten over it. (I hope)
She now knows that barbeque is something you EAT and not something you DO. (You grill a steak, you eat barbeque )

 

[Dave Siciliano]

No offense taken......

Sounds like you're aptly describing the actions of one George McClellan; or, at least what he was accused a lot of--no offense

Thanks for the perspective.

Foot's book points out a lot of issues McClellan had to deal with including the President dictating some things that didn't make military sense. Also, the Pinkertons grossly over estimated Southern strength causing McClellan to be much more cautions that he needed to be.

Best,

Dave

 

[dmccormack]

My wife who grew up on Plattsburg, NY, knew NOTHING of the Civil War. She said they studied it for a week or so and moved on. She used to take offense when I called i he War of Northern Aggression. She has gotten over it. (I hope)
She now knows that barbeque is something you EAT and not something you DO. (You grill a steak, you eat barbeque )

That's too funny...

I met my wife when i was visiting my parents in upstate NY (Near Potsdam). Her father was a Southern Baptist minister sent to the mission field of upstate NY!

Her great-grandmother hid from the Yankees in a bake oven as Sherman marched through. Her family is from South Carolina, descendants of hard, Celtic stock who lived to fight.

In reading Bernard Bailyn's book about colonial migration, I learned that the Scotch-Irish who settled much of the South came through Philadelphia and Lancaster County (where we lived). The locals wouldn't sell them land, so they hung a hard left and followed the Shenandoah valley south until they were allowed to buy land. The interior Piedmont was not suitable for plantations, but sufficed for subsistence living.

The gateway to the south for those folks traveling from Lancaster to the South is the same valley which Lee marched up on his way to Gettysburg.

Many of those butternut-clad young men were a mere generation removed from the very spot they fought over.

My professor in college used to say, "When you understand history, you travel in space and time."

How true.

 

[dmccormack]

Foot's book points out a lot of issues McClellan had to deal with including the President dictating some things that didn't make military sense. Also, the Pinkertons grossly over estimated Southern strength causing McClellan to be much more cautions that he needed to be.

Best,

Dave

My friend in High School was McClellan's great-grandson. I asked him about it sometime in Sophomore year -- he wasn't lyin -- family had all sorts of stuff.

 

[kyleb]

No offense taken......

Dave, If you ever get to Atlanta, I urge you to try to fly into RYY on the north side, and take a day to visit Chickamauga, 75 minutes north of there, and then Kennesaw mountain National Battlefield Park. Both are excellent battlefield parks. At Kennesaw, there are trails that you can walk to the summit and the trench lines are still clearly visible. Gettysburg is very sobering when especially when you stand at the treeline from which Pickett's charge started. These poor guys walked hundreds of yards in the open looking directly at the Yankee lines, and did it anyway. Carnage, pure and simple.
Walking these sites, gives me a sense of perspective and awe at how brave and committed these people were to their respective causes.
As a child in Georgia, I can tell you we were always told how proud we should be of being southerners (much like Texans are of being Texans). We even got out of school for Confederate Memorial day. My wife who grew up on Plattsburg, NY, knew NOTHING of the Civil War. She said they studied it for a week or so and moved on. She used to take offense when I called i he War of Northern Aggression. She has gotten over it. (I hope)
She now knows that barbeque is something you EAT and not something you DO. (You grill a steak, you eat barbeque )

Interesting topic. My parents' land is close Lost Mountain (near Kennesaw Mountain) still has visible canon emplacements. My grandparents' farm was where the northern army camped during the battle of Cheatam Hill, which was along one flank of Kennesaw Mountain. If you're aware of the Northern theft (hijacking?) of a locomotive in Marietta, GA, and the subsequent locomotive chase, the theft took place within walking distance of my childhood home. The route the chase followed is essentially my daily commute. A fascinating story, that (the locomitive chase, not my commute)...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Some meandering discussion by the author in his melodic, Mississippian baritone voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBghmvRMluY

Best,

Dave

 

[Jay Honeck]

I haven't been up there. May have to after reading about it. Been to Vicksburg and several of the smaller battle fields in NC. Will probably go to Vicksburg again after reading this. It's wonderful to see and walk the fortifications. I can envision what the troops were doing and the will power it took to do it. I always leave sad, but glad I went.

The first time I toured the battlefield at Vicksburg, I was in my twenties -- and was totally stunned. Being a Northerner from Wisconsin, I had no appreciation of the scale and scope of that battle. As others have pointed out, we Yankees spent maybe a week studying the Civil War in high school. Later, in college, I minored in history, but that study never fully prepared me for the ghastly carnage of that war.

Later, as a much older man, I cried when I walked the Gettysburg field where Pickett's charge took place. So many young men and boys, lost in such a hopeless charge.

Warfare in the 1860s straddled the line between old and new. Old strategies combined with modern weaponry meant carnage on an unbelievable scale. Let's hope we never see the likes of it again.

Not to hijack the thread, but I sincerely hope that those developers fail in their attempts to build a casino on that hallowed ground.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Not to hijack the thread, but I sincerely hope that those developers fail in their attempts to build a casino on that hallowed ground.

Didn't know that was going on Jay. I grew up on the south side of Chicago and had the same school experience in learning you did, but we really didn't fight for our homes and lose and as Shelby Foote states, the North fought with one arm behind its back. For most that could afford a deferment, there wasn't any hardship. As a matter of fact, a lot of growth was going on and many prospered.

Very interesting reading about Galveston in these books. Didn't realize it had been taken and retaken with the use of gun boats and some ground troops. Not a major battle, but important to keep things flowing from Texas to the east.

The charge you cite was catastrophic. But reading about how they virtually starved folks out was more disheatening to me (If one can even weigh the difference of bad things on this scale). I'm going from memory and look forward to Mr. Foote's explanation and perspective.

Best,

Dave

 

[Keith Lane]

The town where I base my plane is Madison, Ga. Madison has the second largest number of antebellum homes that are original in all of Georgia (next to my home town of Macon). At some point during Sherman's march, somebody from Madison rode out to meet his forward elements to appeal to him not to burn the town. It was actually because there was a senator who lived there who had ties to Sherman and West Point.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_Georgia

It is known as "The town Sherman refused to burn", as it was spared during General Sherman's march to the sea during the Civil War. While many believe that he spared the town because it was too beautiful to burn, the actual fact is that Madison was home to pro-Union Senator Joshua Hill. Hill had ties with General Sherman's brother at West Point, so his sparing the town was more political than appreciation of its beauty. Currently, Madison has the second largest historic district in the state of Georgia (next to Macon), and tourists from all over the world come to marvel at the antebellum architecture of the homes.

As a kid we were always taught that the war was started over states rights and Lincoln did not want to involve slavery as an issue until he was losing popular support for the war and needed re-invigorate the war effort by gaining the near fanatical support of the abolitionists. As pointed out in some historical writings of the late 20th century those teachings weren't too far off the mark.
I like to joke that the reason Southerners are hung up on the war is that we lost and were occupied by a foreign nation and are occupied to this day. :wink2:

As with all Georgia towns, there is a memorial to the Confederate dead, installed by the daughters of the Confederacy, in 1905. The inscription on the front of the base depicted in the picture below.

 

[ScottM]

Shelby Foote is a great writer and an interesting man. When he passed a few years ago I knew that America had lost a true original.

I haven't been up there. May have to after reading about it. Been to Vicksburg and several of the smaller battle fields in NC. Will probably go to Vicksburg again after reading this. It's wonderful to see and walk the fortifications. I can envision what the troops were doing and the will power it took to do it. I always leave sad, but glad I went.

Best,

Dave

Vicksburg is a really interesting place to visit. The battle field is well preserved and there is a partially restored iron clad on display that you will see no where else. The city itself is interesting too.

My SO and I where there a couple of years ago for the specific purpose of finding some more information about two of he relative (uncle types) that had fought there. One would later die in Jackson, MS. We found what we were looking for including the spot on the ground where their tents where located. We stood and walked the very land that they had fought on 140 years earlier. The real find was we found a marker that had been specifically placed by their unit. It was a small sign to their then unit of 50 people that had been placed by the veterans a few years after the battle.

 

[ScottM]

In most matches, up to 1863 (which is where I am in the books), Union troops outnumber Southern forces by two to one or more. Union forces had supply trains bringing good quantities of weapons, ammunition, food and other supplies. The South was in a much less fortunate position. An advantage the South did have was it's internal RR system which could shuttle troops a supplies quickly from one point to another. As their defensive area got smaller, their RR system could respond faster (up to this point in the war).

Best,

Dave

Yes, the Southerners were almsot out gunned and out manned, but the northerners were almost always out generalled.

Robert E. Lee was asked by Lincoln to lead the Union Army in 1861. Lee pondered that offer in house over looking DC on the grounds of what is now Arlington National Cemetery. But VA left the union and Lee could not turn his back on "his country". He declined the offer and instead became a somewhat minor leader in the VA militia. After a couple of battles Lee was then asked to led the Army of Northern VA and the rest is history.

After you read Foote's book Douglas Southell Freeman's book on RE Lee titled 'Lee' is a must read. The complexities of that man are truly amazing.

BTW later in the war when the Union has exhausted all of it leaders and brings the failed farmer into head the whole show for them you learn that Grant was a pretty great man and that Patton may have been called blood and guts, but Grant pioneered the reputation. The amount of men that Grant lost in the Wilderness campaign is just truly stunning and sad.

 

[Anthony]

I haven't been up there. May have to after reading about it. Been to Vicksburg and several of the smaller battle fields in NC. Will probably go to Vicksburg again after reading this. It's wonderful to see and walk the fortifications. I can envision what the troops were doing and the will power it took to do it. I always leave sad, but glad I went.

Best,

Dave

There is absoutely nothing like Gettysburg. Nothing. Its much the same as it was, even the town. You can still see scares of the battle in houses in town. Pocked marked windows with bullet holes around them form exchanged gun fire. Holes in doors and shutters and other remnants of the battle.

Its one place where you can really go back in time and get a feeling for what happened. The battlefield is magnificent.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Where I am in my reading now is where Grant has his forces just above Vicksburg and has tried several ways to pass around it, all without success. He has overwhelming force, but can't bring it to bear because of the topography and well established defenses of the Southern units. It looks as if he has tried in many ways to avoid what this turned out to be. He's done a lot of homework with maps and even conducted several personal reconnaissances. He is described as pretty business like. When he got off the boat in New Orleans to get a feel for things there, he had a simple uniform and only two stars on each shoulder as opposed to others with uniforms with much more flourish--no saber; no sash, etc. no crowd around him. Fascinating reading.

Interesting perspective on internal conflicts. Grant gets along well with Sherman and Sheridan, but McClerand and he are fire and ice. McClerand wrote to the President and thought he should command or at least have an independent force. Grant had to address that. At the same time, the naval commander took matters into his own hands and lost several boats.

So Grant wasn't just fighting Southern forces, there were very real internal battles among others vying to lead, even among some of his own subordinates. Lincoln stood firm behind Grant even when others well connected politically counseled him otherwise. Lincoln said he couldn't spare grant: he fights!

Thanks for the comments.

Best,

Dave

 

[ScottM]

So Grant wasn't just fighting Southern forces, there were very real internal battles among others vying to lead, even among some of his own subordinates. Lincoln stood firm behind Grant even when others well connected politically counseled him otherwise. Lincoln said he couldn't spare grant: he fights!

Thanks for the comments.

There is a great letter from Lincoln about Grant and all of the criticism that Lincoln has been hearing about Grant from the generals, politicians, etc.

Lincoln says simply. "I cannot spare this man, he fights"

This was shortly after Shiloh and when Grant finally succeeds with the Vicksburg campaign his fate is sealed. Lincoln elevates him to lead the entire Union forces.

Attached are a few pictures of the Vicksburg battle field.

Me my the place where surrender was discussed.

A Confederate cannon

The iron clad

That last picture, the one where the tree is, shows the location of the tent, according to the maps we used, of my SO's relatives.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks Scott. The last (and only) time I went here, I was jogging a lot and jogged along all the prepared positions. Didn't take the full tour, although, I did go into museum and listened to a park ranger relate some of this. Didn't see the things you've pointed out.
I'll have to go back soon.

Best,

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

... Gettysburg is very sobering when especially when you stand at the treeline from which Pickett's charge started. These poor guys walked hundreds of yards in the open looking directly at the Yankee lines, and did it anyway. Carnage, pure and simple.)

A friend took a picture of me at the site where the Union troops (on a hill, looking down over an open expanse of fields) watched Pickett's charge. My expression clearly says "They did WHAT?!?!?!?".

It's a great, powerful, experience.

 

[Palmpilot]

As a kid we were always taught that the war was started over states rights and Lincoln did not want to involve slavery as an issue until he was losing popular support for the war and needed re-invigorate the war effort by gaining the near fanatical support of the abolitionists. As pointed out in some historical writings of the late 20th century those teachings weren't too far off the mark.

My impression is that Lincoln's reason for fighting the Civil War was to preserve the union, but it seems to me that preserving slavery was the reason the South considered states' rights important enough to secede over.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Very interesting reading about Galveston in these books. Didn't realize it had been taken and retaken with the use of gun boats and some ground troops. Not a major battle, but important to keep things flowing from Texas to the east.

Mustang Island, where I now live, (down the chain of barrier islands South of Galveston) was first occupied by Confederate troops, then taken by Union troops.

The Union troops who garrisoned here were put here as a PUNISHMENT by their commanding officer. (This island in the summer, without air conditioning, must have been hellacious.)

Best of all (from my perspective) these troops were from Iowa! :wink2:

(We just moved here from Iowa last April...)

 

[gprellwitz]

My SO and I where there a couple of years ago for the specific purpose of finding some more information about two of he relative (uncle types) that had fought there. One would later die in Jackson, MS.

Leslie and I went to Hillsborough, NC, a couple years ago, as well as to Raleigh. We were investigating some of her kin, the Whitted's, who worked a plantation in the area. Well, I guess I should say they were owned as part of the plantation, because otherwise it makes it sound like they weren't property.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

My impression is that Lincoln's reason for fighting the Civil War was to preserve the union, but it seems to me that preserving slavery was the reason the South considered states' rights important enough to cecede over.

It all depends on which "side" you're on. It is, however, worth noting the timelines involved as to when certain reasons (perhaps "justifications" would be a better word) for the war arose.

 

[RMCN172RG]

My impression is that Lincoln's reason for fighting the Civil War was to preserve the union, but it seems to me that preserving slavery was the reason the South considered states' rights important enough to cecede over.

That's how the Civil War was taught to you. They made it a simple question with Good (US) versus Bad (CS).

The road to War, the reasons and the arguments on both sides were much more complex.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Richard: Early in Foots' series, it is brought out that a group of states in the NE vowed to secede if certain things weren't done including abolition. The Southern states swore to secede if those things were done. One could take the position that Lincoln patiently waited to see how things developed. Congress seemed just as divided. The attack of Fort Sumter seemed to make the decision for him.

I can go back and find a cite if you'd like. He did a good job of making the case Lincoln was in a horrible position.

Early in the War, Lincoln drew up a military order releasing slaves in states fighting against the Union at the end of the war so as to not alienate border states (fighting for the Union), but the timing simply wasn't right to publish it. Just before Vicksburg is when Lincoln first published and released that order which among other things got the sympathy of the ordinary working British citizen and was one factor in keeping British forces out of the war. The South was trying to bring France in. It would not participate until it knew where the British stood and they stayed neutral.

Best,

Dave

 

[Anthony]

My impression is that Lincoln's reason for fighting the Civil War was to preserve the union, but it seems to me that preserving slavery was the reason the South considered states' rights important enough to cecede over.

I have read a much different perspective. The South knew slavery was on its way out. It was the principal of being ORDERED by the Federal government to abolish part of their economic system that caused the secession. The fact that the Federal government could mandate what a state could do caused the civil war.

Slavery was wrong and archaic. If the Feds had stopped at slavery that would have been fine, but they didn't. The Civil War changed the nature of our country for good, from the intent of states having greater power to where we are now. Not wanting to go SZ. I will stop there.

Back to Gettysburg. If you walk the field where Pickett's Charge took place, you can almost realize the absolute horror of what took place. It is indeed a somber experience.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

The Dred Scott decision inflamed northern states. Chief Justice Taney said a Negro was not a citizen of the United States and therefore had no right to sue in Federal Court. Scott sued for his master to let him go after taking him into a territory where slavery was forbidden by the Missouri Compromise.

Where succession had formerly been a threat of the South, it now became a cry in the North, particularly New England.

Lincoln thought the decision was erroneous but respected the court and thought work should be done to change the five-four decision.

The South had looked to expand: particularly to the west to Texas, Arizona and California. Some expansionists saw Mexico and Central America coming under Southern control. They wished to make those slave states, but Northern interests stifled that and California came in as a free state.

Foote describes the country's mood on the eve of Lincoln's inauguration:

Change was predominant not only in Springfield; the Union appeared to be coming apart at the seams. Louisiana and Texas had brought the total seceded states up to seven. Banks and business firms were folding; the stock market declined and declined. James Buchanan, badly confused, was doing nothing in these last weeks in office. Having stated in his December message to Congress that while a state had no lawful right to secede, neither had the Federal government and right to prevent it, privately he was saying that he was the last President of the United States.
North and South, Union men looked to Lincoln, whose election had been the signal for all this trouble.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Interesting how Jefferson Davis resigned from the Senate and went home to his plantation at Brierfield while his army was raised. His goal was to be commander of the Mississippi army.

However, there was a convention being held in Montgomery to form a Southern Confederacy. He and Mrs. Davis were out in the garden cutting a rose when a messenger approached with a telegram. It had a heading from Montgomery Alabama....

Sir:
We are directed to inform you that you are this day unanimously elected President of the Provisional Government of the Confederate States of America, and to request you come to Montgomery immediately. (Volume one at p. 17.)

He had no idea he was being considered for such a position.

Best,

Dave

 

[Jay Honeck]

Sir:
We are directed to inform you that you are this day unanimously elected President of the Provisional Government of the Confederate States of America, and to request you come to Montgomery immediately. (Volume one at p. 17.)

He had no idea he was being considered for such a position.

Ah, if only we elected presidents this way nowadays.

The letter comes, you open it, and you have that "Oh, sh*t!" moment when you realize that you just lost the lottery. Now YOU have to be president...

 

[Palmpilot]

That's how the Civil War was taught to you. They made it a simple question with Good (US) versus Bad (CS).

The road to War, the reasons and the arguments on both sides were much more complex.

What other reasons made states' rights important enough to secede over?

 

[Palmpilot]

I have read a much different perspective. The South new slavery was on its way out. It was the principal of being ORDERED by the Federal government to abolish part of their economic system that caused the secession. The fact that the Federal government could mandate what a state could do caused the civil war.

So the South was afraid they would be ORDERED to end slavery, which would cripple their economic system, and that's why they seceded? It still sounds like the issue driving the whole controversy was slavery. I'm sure the economic impact would have been dire, but it was the prospect of a sudden end to slavery that was threatening to bring this about, was it not?

I realize that economics and politics played major roles, but to pretend that the slavery issue was not a major driving factor seems kind of strange to me.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

This is a pretty good discussion of the various issues different historians have raised over the years, but it keeps coming back to slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War

States rights were different then than now and many States still looked at the Federal government as only dealing in the specific areas set out in the Constitution read more plainly than we do today. Many still thought states should be allowed full freedom in trade and commerce. There was a tariff controversy that the South also disagreed with.

Slavery was certainly the most divisive issue, but many others seemed to flourish as leaders of many states disagreed with Federal policies. Notice that Lincoln wasn't even on the Southern ballot and got no Southern electoral votes. The South certainly felt they had no say in the presidential election.

Davis had lead a succession effort years before in the Senate and found he was in front of his constituents. Later, Mississippi and other states seceded before he was prepared for it. I'm sure those that voted to secede thought there were many things they saw differently than Northern leadership at the time.

Best,

Dave

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

...

It still sounds like the issue driving the whole controversy was slavery.

....

That's about the size of it. The "states' rights" theory, assuming any credence should be given to something that did not develop in either detail or any kind of popularity until after the war was over, involves only a single "states' right" - slavery.

What really shoots a hole in the states' rights argument, though, is the Confederate Constitution. It gave considerably more power to the Confederate Congress than the U.S. Constitution gave to the U.S. Congress, particularly in the area of taxation, and the Confederate Constitution also contains a "Full Faith and Credit clause" (meaning that State A is required to recognize and respect acts done under the law of State B). Have a look for yourself: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

There's not really much of any way around that. Hasn't stopped people from trying for the last 155 years, though.

[edit:] I was just thinking, and I suspect only Adam and Spike would be amused by this: If I were an attorney below the Mason-Dixon, could I rely on decisions from the Confederate Supreme Court as precedent? Now, I went to law school in North Carolina, so you'd think they would've mentioned if I could, but...well, it's funny to me at least! Hehehe. Unfortunately, my Westlaw subscription does not include an option for "Confederate Supreme Court (1861-1865).

 

[SCCutler]

David, there are published cases in Texas law dating back not only to the Confederate era, but also to the period during which Texas was an independent nation. Mostly too old to matter...

...you cannot dismiss the states' rights notion completely.

Of course, if slavery was the justification for the war, one wonders what constituted the justification of the systematic destruction of the south's infrastructure...

 

[Keith Lane]

Of course, if slavery was the justification for the war, one wonders what constituted the justification of the systematic destruction of the south's infrastructure...

That, Spike, is probably the best question I've ever heard anyone ask as to the cause of the Civil War.

Make no mistake, I think slavery was an abomination, and living in Atlanta I'm reminded almost daily how deep the feelings about it run in our African American community.
I do wonder, just what the first and I mean the very first spark was that set us on the road to near destruction.