The "cheap" Tesla is finally out...

But as you become a less frequent user, Uber (for example) does become easier because you don't have to worry about maintenance, registration, washing the darned thing, putting gas in, getting stuck on the side of the road, etc. You just plug a little information into an app, and the car appears a few minutes later.

I don't travel for business much anymore, but was just in San Francisco for a weeklong set of meetings, and signed up for Uber for the first time, and I have to say, it was WAY more convenient than I ever remember dealing with hailing taxis. I always used to hate calling for a taxi, explaining where I was, half the time the driver didn't know where to go, and then had to fumble with paying with a credit card because I never carry cash on me. Uber was so simple - they always knew where to pick me up, where I was going, and when the trip was over, get out and no hassle with payment. Just jump out and walk off. I'm a fan - I'll probably never try to hail a taxi ever again. Super convenient.
 
I only skimmed this thread so it's possible that I missed some details that others posted.

There's been mention of other EVs being manufactured. I'm curious if there has been a meeting of minds to come up with a standardized plug so one go on cross country trips without worrying about where to get the next shot of juice.

Not much. There are currently 5 different electric car charging standards in the world. Three of those can be found in North America. There is Tesla's proprietary format, then CCS (The one people had hoped would be the world standard) and CHAdeMO (a Japanese standard that they hoped to corner the market with). The Tesla is the most versatile because Teslas can charge anywhere with adapters. The non-Tesla cars can charge anywhere with adapters except Tesla Supercharger stations and that's a big disadvantage because that's the best network at this time. The only reason they can't charge at the Superchargers is Tesla won't let them.

The other two charging standards are a European version of CCS (why it's not the same as North America is a mystery to most) and a standard the Chinese government came up with all for electric cars in China. I can't remember what it's called. Since it's almost a given that China will dominate the planet by the end of the century and currently has the largest car market in the world, sells the most electric cars of anybody in the world and soon nearly all cars will be made in China, the Chinese standard stands the best chance of being a world standard some day.

BTW... The Model 3 has peaked my interest. However, the ~$55k price tag makes me hesitant to pull the trigger for what will amount to being a grocery hauler.

You can get a Model 3 for a lot less than $55,000 now. Realistically though, once you pay the mandatory destination charge ($1300 I think) and then put one or two options on, it will actually be closer to a low to mid $40,000 car. If you're not picky, then one can be had sub $40,000.
 
Honestly, I’d be more interested, at about a third of the cost. My very nicely equipped F150, brand new, was 40k. That 40k accomplishes a lot of different missions that the Tesla simply couldn’t touch. Not enough value for the cost.

Only way I could even justify the F150, at that high price, was because I had a need to tow things that are 8000+ lbs across the continent reliably. Had I not had that mission requirement, I’d still be driving my 1997 Silverado, which also was capable of more.

If the only mission is to transport my ass around town - I don’t spend over $2,000 on it.
 
Honestly, I’d be more interested, at about a third of the cost. My very nicely equipped F150, brand new, was 40k. That 40k accomplishes a lot of different missions that the Tesla simply couldn’t touch. Not enough value for the cost.

Only way I could even justify the F150, at that high price, was because I had a need to tow things that are 8000+ lbs across the continent reliably. Had I not had that mission requirement, I’d still be driving my 1997 Silverado, which also was capable of more.

If the only mission is to transport my ass around town - I don’t spend over $2,000 on it.
The last time I needed something just to get me around I bought a used Mazda Miata with less than 100k miles for 2800. It’s a fun little car that has room for a V8. Cheap fun and reliable. All for less than 3k.
 
You can get a Model 3 for a lot less than $55,000 now. Realistically though, once you pay the mandatory destination charge ($1300 I think) and then put one or two options on, it will actually be closer to a low to mid $40,000 car. If you're not picky, then one can be had sub $40,000.

When I picked the options I liked, $55k was the cost without the advertising gimmicks ( tax credit and fuel savings).
 
Not much. There are currently 5 different electric car charging standards in the world. Three of those can be found in North America. There is Tesla's proprietary format, then CCS (The one people had hoped would be the world standard) and CHAdeMO (a Japanese standard that they hoped to corner the market with). The Tesla is the most versatile because Teslas can charge anywhere with adapters. The non-Tesla cars can charge anywhere with adapters except Tesla Supercharger stations and that's a big disadvantage because that's the best network at this time. The only reason they can't charge at the Superchargers is Tesla won't let them.

The other two charging standards are a European version of CCS (why it's not the same as North America is a mystery to most) and a standard the Chinese government came up with all for electric cars in China. I can't remember what it's called. Since it's almost a given that China will dominate the planet by the end of the century and currently has the largest car market in the world, sells the most electric cars of anybody in the world and soon nearly all cars will be made in China, the Chinese standard stands the best chance of being a world standard some day...

So does Tesla use its own standard in China, or does it have to use the Chinese government standard for "all electric cars in China"?
 
That's one of the best parts about EVs - No more going to the gas station. Grab the plug off the wall and plug it into the car when I pull into the garage, pull the plug and put it back on the wall when I'm ready to go. And no more freezing my ass off waiting for the engine to warm up in the winter either.

You could move somewhere warmer. :)

You shouldn't really let an ICE warm up...just start driving it gently.
 
The only reason they can't charge at the Superchargers is Tesla won't let them.

That's not true.

Elon has stated multiple times he would be willing to let any other car company who would contribute to expanding the Supercharging network, charge their cars on the network, as long as they offered a seamless plug-in experience (no swiping a card or phoning up a number while in front of the charger). Nobody wanted to take him up on it.

Other car companies are set on a model that they shouldn't be the ones providing the network, the energy market has to do it. So now they don't have any network.
 
Actually, no, it isn't as bad as you'd think. If you're really interested, I'll post the math. I'm actually very surprised someone didn't do it earlier than Nissan, so there may be (probably is) something I'm overlooking.

I would be interested in that. Also, why is the heating side of the equation not the best? Any energy conversion process is less than 100% efficient, but generally what you get from that loss of efficiency is... Heat. So wouldn't resistive heating essentially be 100% (0%) efficient, with the only inefficiency being getting that heat from the element to the cabin? And the heat pump would be subject to those same losses. What am I missing?

I'm curious if there has been a meeting of minds to come up with a standardized plug so one go on cross country trips without worrying about where to get the next shot of juice.

There have been several meetings of the minds, unfortunately. ;)

Here in the US, there are four main plugs, and most BEVs have at least two.

The first is the SAE J1772 plug, which is as standard as it gets - Any modern EV sold in the US has this (or, in the case of the Teslas, comes with an adapter for it). So, basically everything except the EV1 and the first-gen (turn of the century-ish) Rav4 EV can use it. This is also the standard used by the chargers that come with the cars, and the chargers that you would install in your garage. The drawback is that this standard is for "Level 1" (120V AC) and "Level 2" (208V or 240V AC). Most of these top out at 40 amps (also about 40 miles of range added per hour), though there's at least one I'm aware of that goes up to 75 amps.

The next two are competing standards for DC Fast Charging (aka "Level 3") which is what you'd use on a road trip. Most non-Tesla L3 stations have one plug from each standard, which means at least you don't have to go searching for separate stations based on what car you drive. CHAdeMO is used mostly by Kia, Nissan, and Mitsubishi and is a large, totally separate port. SAE-CCS uses the J1772 plug to communicate with the car, plus a pair of large pins underneath for the DC fast charging.

Finally, there's the Tesla plug, which does L1, L2, and L3. So, whether you use the portable charger that came with the car and plug it into a standard outlet or you're using a Supercharger, it all uses the same connector. Tesla includes an adapter for J1772 stations with the car, and they sell a CHAdeMO adapter. However, they're also part of the CCS working group so they may offer a CCS adapter too.

Outside of North America, in Europe most cars use the Mennekes connector, AKA CCS Type 1, including Tesla. In China, they use the "GB" connector, which I guess is like a Mennekes but the opposite gender of the rest of the world.

Clear as mud? It's really not much to worry about. I've already told you more than any EV driver needs to know. Essentially, anyone can use J1772, and for fast charging, Teslas use Superchargers and everyone else uses the stations that generally have one CCS plug and one CHAdeMO plug.

BTW... The Model 3 has peaked my interest. However, the ~$55k price tag makes me hesitant to pull the trigger for what will amount to being a grocery hauler.

Well, now that it's $35K, maybe you can go haul groceries in a Tesla. ;) But really, if it's going to only be a grocery hauler, you might as well get a Leaf, since I'm assuming you have another car for road trips if you're calling it a grocery hauler.

You could move somewhere warmer. :)

And have weather that's boring? Naaaah. ;)

You shouldn't really let an ICE warm up...just start driving it gently.

I was referring to the cabin, not the engine. ;)
 
Looks like another autopilot went awry down in Florida and sheared the top off another Tesla as the driver went underneath a left-turning semi-truck and was killed.
 
I've been seeing a lot more since the Model 3 has been getting produced in larger numbers as well. FWIW, KC is supposed to be pretty good in terms of EV infrastructure from what I've heard, but I remember talking about this particular trip of yours (Garden City, right?) and it'd still be a bit inconvenient.

>>>
The KCP&L Clean Charge Network consists of over 1,000 electric vehicle charging stations — more than any other city in the United States.
<<<

Kansas City Power and Light put lots of charging stations around town. Many of them are in grocery story parking lots so you can shop and charge at the same time.

https://www.kcpl.com/involvement/environmental-focus/clean-charge-network

I think the deal was that during the first 2 years of the program, charging would be free.

And yes, we had talked about the logistics of getting from KC to Garden City. GC is one of the peculiar places in the country - it's far from everything. It's not along an Interstate, and it isn't a "large" city, so it doesn't have an EV charging infrastructure in town or along the US and State highways you have to travel to get there. I used the Tesla routing app and found Supercharging options along the way, but basically you would have to top off along I-70 and then make the run to GC. I think the problem is that you'd be pulling into Garden City on fumes and have to figure out how top off enough to get back out of there. I found a Tesla "Destination Charging Station" about an hour away in Dodge City. I couldn't find anything that shows a charging station of any brand in Garden City. I think the Nissan dealership has one, but I'm not sure if it's for general use.
 
>>>
The KCP&L Clean Charge Network consists of over 1,000 electric vehicle charging stations — more than any other city in the United States.
<<<

Kansas City Power and Light put lots of charging stations around town. Many of them are in grocery story parking lots so you can shop and charge at the same time.

https://www.kcpl.com/involvement/environmental-focus/clean-charge-network

I think the deal was that during the first 2 years of the program, charging would be free.

And yes, we had talked about the logistics of getting from KC to Garden City. GC is one of the peculiar places in the country - it's far from everything. It's not along an Interstate, and it isn't a "large" city, so it doesn't have an EV charging infrastructure in town or along the US and State highways you have to travel to get there. I used the Tesla routing app and found Supercharging options along the way, but basically you would have to top off along I-70 and then make the run to GC. I think the problem is that you'd be pulling into Garden City on fumes and have to figure out how top off enough to get back out of there. I found a Tesla "Destination Charging Station" about an hour away in Dodge City. I couldn't find anything that shows a charging station of any brand in Garden City. I think the Nissan dealership has one, but I'm not sure if it's for general use.

Thats exactly why I liked living 20 miles outside of Garden City. Miss living there...
 
Looks like another autopilot went awry down in Florida and sheared the top off another Tesla as the driver went underneath a left-turning semi-truck and was killed.

Link? I haven't heard anything yet, which leads me to suspect that someone resurrected the same story yet again to harvest some clicks...
 
Really, the best thing for the future would be if more workplaces put in cheap chargers. Charging during the day, when solar energy is available (whether it's local panels or utility provided) is better for the power plants and the environment and would help flatten the duck curve somewhat. And you're at work for hours anyway, so you don't need an expensive fast charger there.

So you think the workplace should be responsible for providing the power for your car? Combination utility and solar powered chargers...that'll be inexpensive to buy and install.

It seems most EV owners think chargers should be everywhere, in public parking lots, airports, businesses, rest stops, etc.

Free, of course.
 
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Level 5 covers all the edge cases.

Borderline level 4 will make a huge impact on society in a few ways:
1. Replacing golf carts in retirement villages, how much more independence will that provide?
2. From door to garage. The car may not be trusted to drive under all conditions, but for large potion of the population of the USA they can drive the route a few times from their door to the parking garage and the car can learn it and drive it in most conditions. Further, the way the cars would likely be networked, the coverage area would keep expanding.
3. Long range truck hauling; remove the driver for the interstate portions.

Level 3, has the potential to dramatically allow the elderly to safely drive longer. Lowers the stress on driving, so in theory truckers could do longer shifts, reduce accidents for cab drivers, delivery vehicles...


Tim
Yep, Level 3 is a big step, and within grasp. . . Still, a 21 year old getting a CDL will have a long career driving trucks, if he/she cares to.
 
So you think the workplace should be responsible for providing the power for your car? Combination utility and solar powered chargers...that'll be inexpensive to buy and install.

It seems most EV owners think chargers should be everywhere, in public parking lots, airports, businesses, rest stops, etc.

Free, of course.

When did I ever say that? :rolleyes:

It'd certainly be a perk that employers could offer to their employees - And there are plenty that already do. My brother works at NVIDIA and they actually have valets that move their cars on and off chargers as necessary (!), while CDW down in IL has a much smarter solution, with maybe a dozen free low-speed ones instead so people don't need to move their cars.

At this point, if a store or workplace feels like offering free charging as an employee perk or a way to lure customers in, great! If not, well, I charge at home.

My point was merely that charging cars at home generally means charging at night which means the duck curve gets worse, so it's better for the utilities to have people charging during the day, which generally means workplace charging. It doesn't have to be free. And if it's done right (more cheap, slow chargers) it isn't particularly expensive.
 
I would be interested in that. Also, why is the heating side of the equation not the best? Any energy conversion process is less than 100% efficient, but generally what you get from that loss of efficiency is... Heat. So wouldn't resistive heating essentially be 100% (0%) efficient, with the only inefficiency being getting that heat from the element to the cabin? And the heat pump would be subject to those same losses. What am I missing?

Heat pumps are not meant to *generate* heat. They use small amount of energy to transfer heat from one place to another. In case of HVAC in a car, from outside to inside. AC is a reverse process. Generally, for every unit of energy they use, they can transfer as much as 3 to 4 times energy in form of heat. As such, they are the most energy efficient(but not the most effective) way to heat/cool space. So, 3-4 times efficiency of resistive heating

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
 
When did I ever say that? :rolleyes:

It'd certainly be a perk that employers could offer to their employees - And there are plenty that already do. My brother works at NVIDIA and they actually have valets that move their cars on and off chargers as necessary (!), while CDW down in IL has a much smarter solution, with maybe a dozen free low-speed ones instead so people don't need to move their cars.

At this point, if a store or workplace feels like offering free charging as an employee perk or a way to lure customers in, great! If not, well, I charge at home.

My point was merely that charging cars at home generally means charging at night which means the duck curve gets worse, so it's better for the utilities to have people charging during the day, which generally means workplace charging. It doesn't have to be free. And if it's done right (more cheap, slow chargers) it isn't particularly expensive.
Wind farms reduce the duck curve. Only solar really makes it worse. From a cost perspective charging at night is really the best. It reduces the total infrastructure required, no new transmission and distribution lines. Increases the base load, and base load is by far the most efficient power generation, from a carbon (excluding renewables) , cost and every other metric.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
So does Tesla use its own standard in China, or does it have to use the Chinese government standard for "all electric cars in China"?
I believe the Teslas sold in China come with both outlets. I also think their Supercharger network over there, that only Tesla owners can use, only have the Tesla plugs on them. I could be wrong on this though. Maybe the Tesla guys on here know more. I'm one of the "crazy fools" that bought a different brand of BEV.
 
That's not true.

Elon has stated multiple times he would be willing to let any other car company who would contribute to expanding the Supercharging network, charge their cars on the network, as long as they offered a seamless plug-in experience (no swiping a card or phoning up a number while in front of the charger). Nobody wanted to take him up on it.

Other car companies are set on a model that they shouldn't be the ones providing the network, the energy market has to do it. So now they don't have any network.

It is true. I personally can't charge my Bolt at the Supercharger Network. The only reason? Elon won't let me. I'm not blaming Elon, or Tesla for keeping it exclusive, that's smart business, I was just pointing out that there are no technical reasons why I couldn't charge there if Elon were to flip the switch on for me.

As to Elon's generous offer, well, Bollinger publicly asked to have access to the network and it fell on def ears. Not even a response. It's like buying a Tesla, I'm sure that joining the network comes with all sorts of conditions and expenses that benefit Tesla. I will be surprised if anybody ever joins.
 
Why? What is wrong with letting it idle to warm up?

Tim

There's nothing *wrong* with it. You're just burning fuel unnecessarily. Modern engines and modern oils such as 5W-15 and 0W-20 just don't need the warm-up time the higher viscosity oils we used in the past needed.
 
As to Elon's generous offer, well, Bollinger publicly asked to have access to the network and it fell on def ears. Not even a response. It's like buying a Tesla, I'm sure that joining the network comes with all sorts of conditions and expenses that benefit Tesla. I will be surprised if anybody ever joins.

From what I have read, GM, Uber, Lyft, VW, Waymo (Google)... Basically most of the major car players, ride sharing companies and others believe people are going to move away from personal ownership of cars and pay for transportation services. e.g. GM now counts on $30K in lifetime revenue for each car sold; however when the car is provided as a service they feel it will be closer to $100K. GM CEO Marry Barry (sp?) had a rather interesting presentation on it last year, before she announced the closing of the factories.

This will at the same encourage more of the inter city transport to switch to trains, planes and dedicated long range cars. I think it was VW, but not sure, had a demonstration model of a long haul car with a range over 800 miles. The basic vehicle could eventually be made with batteries that changed the range from 300 miles to 800; so baed on where you are going, the fleet would send you the appropriate vehicle.

Tim
 
On average, For the tesla or any EV owner, whats your electricity bill to charge your vehicle at home per month?
 
There's nothing *wrong* with it. You're just burning fuel unnecessarily. Modern engines and modern oils such as 5W-15 and 0W-20 just don't need the warm-up time the higher viscosity oils we used in the past needed.

Well, I let the car idle to warm up (or the A/C to cool down the cabin) at least once week. But that is because I often do not drive far enough to recharge the battery (a lot of my trips are less then five minutes, a long trip is 20 minutes). And I just accepted a position where I will work from home 80% of the time. I really do not drive a lot anymore...

Tim
 
On average, For the tesla or any EV owner, whats your electricity bill to charge your vehicle at home per month?

For me (Volt), roughly 20-25 charges at around 1.20 per (10.4 KW) charge. So maybe $25-30 more. Last months total electric bill was $84. I also charge at work for free. For a 12 hr shift, it’s easily done when I leave. Save about $100-125 month in fuel costs over my gasoline vehicle,
 
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Why? What is wrong with letting it idle to warm up?

Tim
Hi- I think a quote was taken out of another quote, it wasn't something I typed. In fact, the post link is really a question addressed to Jesse (click on the little arrow). I'm not sure how they got mixed up.
Here's the quote you wanted:
You could move somewhere warmer. :)

You shouldn't really let an ICE warm up...just start driving it gently.
I don't let mine warm up for long, but my cars are garaged. I feel mine are warmed by the time I get the garage door closed. Every winter, we have a spate of car thefts from people warming their vehicles; most of them are interested in themselves being warm rather than the engine. There may be a reason to warm up the engine in a really cold place like Alaska, but I also noticed they have free warming plugs at parking places. Apparently, people plug in their cars to keep the engines warm.
 
Hi- I think a quote was taken out of another quote, it wasn't something I typed. In fact, the post link is really a question addressed to Jesse (click on the little arrow). I'm not sure how they got mixed up.
Here's the quote you wanted:

I don't let mine warm up for long, but my cars are garaged. I feel mine are warmed by the time I get the garage door closed. Every winter, we have a spate of car thefts from people warming their vehicles; most of them are interested in themselves being warm rather than the engine. There may be a reason to warm up the engine in a really cold place like Alaska, but I also noticed they have free warming plugs at parking places. Apparently, people plug in their cars to keep the engines warm.

Remote start FTW
 
There may be a reason to warm up the engine in a really cold place like Alaska, but I also noticed they have free warming plugs at parking places. Apparently, people plug in their cars to keep the engines warm.

The apartment I stayed at in Fairbanks had that as an advertised feature, except the power wasn't free. You had an assigned parking spot with a riser that has an outlet in it. You provide the extension cord. The power to the outlet can be controlled by a switch in the apartment so you don't have to worry about someone stealing your power.
 
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