the airspace above LAX

C

coma24

Line Up and Wait
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coma24
LAX is a pretty crazy place. Consider the following list of activities that take place just above the airport:
1) Mini-route traffic at 2500 (VFR)
2) LAX departures stopping their climbs at 3000 until the shoreline on most SIDS
3) SFRA at 3500 southeast bound (VFR)
4) piston TEC routes at 4000 (IFR)
5) SFRA at 4500 northwest bound (VFR)
6) more TEC routes at 5000 (IFR)
7) Coastal route at 5500, southeast bound (VFR)
8) more TEC routes at 6000 (IFR)
9) Coastal route at 6500, northwest bound (VFR)
10) SADDE6 arrivals into LAX crossing nearby SMO at 7000 (IFR)
11) TEC routes at 8000 (IFR)
12) Hollywood Park route at 8500, northwest bound (VFR)
13) TEC routes at 9000 (IFR)
14) Coliseum route at 9500, southeast bound (VFR)
15) TEC routes at 10,000 (IFR)
16) LOOP6 departures crossing LAX at or above 10,000 (you'd think it'd be 11k, but in reality, the LOOPs climb quickly and with room to spare)

Drop a penny from a hot air balloon at 11,500 and with a bit of luck (alright, a lot of luck), it'll bounce off 16 planes on the way down. Good luck getting up there, though!
 
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As crazy and complex as it is, it is all of that structure that gives it the safety with the volume of traffic in the LA airspace.

I fly through LA quite a bit VFR and I know a lot of pilots that fear the LAX Bravo airspace...but I will take a LAX Bravo transition over dodging all the other VFR traffic trying trying to get around the Bravo any day!
 
LAX Bravo is like stealing candy from kids compared to the San Diego Bravo. That's a mess.
 
...the LAX Bravo specifically?...probably not. It is all of the other surrounding airspace with a ton of surrounding Class C (there are 4 class C airports that pretty much border LAX Bravo), numerous Delta airports, military, transitioning traffic, high density of biz and private jets, terrain, lots of people with disposable income with private put put planes and density of student pilots and just crap ton of people in general that make it crazy.
 
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Shawn said:
As crazy and complex as it is, it is all of that structure that gives it the safety with the volume of traffic in the LA airspace.

I fly through LA quite a bit VFR and I know a lot of pilots that fear the LAX Bravo airspace...but I will take a LAX Bravo transition over dodging all the other VFR traffic trying trying to get around the Bravo any day!
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Agreed 100%.... A well thought out plan for airspace...:thumbsup:
 
They're going to need to rename the Hollywood Park route - the racetrack just closed, and will be replaced with more suburban sprawl, making it indistinguishable from it's surroundings in a few years.
 
rbridges said:
this is probably a stupid question, but is LAX a lot busier than Atlanta?
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Atlanta is busier. The airspace is also bigger and doesn't have a published VFR corridor. That means most VFR traffic gets pushed outside ATL's airspace. Effectively, they have fixed the problem by all but denying the airspace.

You can request a VFR "corridor" flight. Every time I've done that, I got the feeling that they would rather not deal with VFR traffic. Most of the locals I know just dodge around the edges and under the tiers.
 
kyleb said:
Atlanta is busier. The airspace is also bigger and doesn't have a published VFR corridor. That means most VFR traffic gets pushed outside ATL's airspace. Effectively, they have fixed the problem by all but denying the airspace.

You can request a VFR "corridor" flight. Every time I've done that, I got the feeling that they would rather not deal with VFR traffic. Most of the locals I know just dodge around the edges and under the tiers.
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And, notice how the placed the ceiling of the ATL Bravo at 12,500... You can bet they decided on that to prevent VFR aircraft from passing over knowing alot of them don't carry O2 on board...... Coincidence..... I think not....:nonod::no:
 
I agree with Shawn. I have used the intense "mini-route" 10 times in as many days. First talk to SMO, then LAX, then Hawthorne, then So. Cal...in the space of a few minutes. And watch out for Torrance airspace! If you are just 100 feet off in your altitude, you can easily bust it.

Still, I love having controllers help me look for traffic and help cover my a#$. The uncontrolled Special Flight Rules Corridor scares me...though there has been only one mid-air since it opened (but pilots will tell you about many close calls!).

Complex it is...but it does seem to work!
 
You missed the best one, the helicopter shoreline route, at or below 150 feet. My friend fly's helicopters for the sheriff dept. and says it definitely concentrates the mind :eek:

I love flying over LAX, its a kick in the pants seeing heavys departing below you over the ocean, I never get over the thrill of seeing an airliner from the top side.
 
kyleb said:
Atlanta is busier. The airspace is also bigger and doesn't have a published VFR corridor. That means most VFR traffic gets pushed outside ATL's airspace. Effectively, they have fixed the problem by all but denying the airspace.

You can request a VFR "corridor" flight. Every time I've done that, I got the feeling that they would rather not deal with VFR traffic. Most of the locals I know just dodge around the edges and under the tiers.
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Yes, Atlanta is a busier airport than LAX, however the airspace is much less complex. The SoCal airspace has so many busy secondary airports that the complexity becomes greater.

It's why airports like JFK and yes ORD might not be the busiest, but because of their secondary airports the airspace becomes complex.

As for the Class B ceiling at ATL...my guess is that all the IFR jet traffic to ATL enters the B at 12,000. At ORD the jets come in anywhere from 9,000 to 12,000 depending on configuration.

That or they didn't want to see any more FLIB's passing over the field at 10.5.... :D
 
N801BH said:
And, notice how the placed the ceiling of the ATL Bravo at 12,500... You can bet they decided on that to prevent VFR aircraft from passing over knowing alot of them don't carry O2 on board...... Coincidence..... I think not....:nonod::no:
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I've noticed that. ;-) If I wasn't based at the 11:00 position on the outer ring, I'd still go over, but from my origin it is much quicker to fly around than to execute a 12,000' circling climb prior to turning on course.
 
ferrari-tech said:
You missed the best one, the helicopter shoreline route, at or below 150 feet. My friend fly's helicopters for the sheriff dept. and says it definitely concentrates the mind :eek:

I love flying over LAX, its a kick in the pants seeing heavys departing below you over the ocean, I never get over the thrill of seeing an airliner from the top side.
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We used to get "Cleared direct beach via the tank farm" for routine departures all the time. The ATC crew at LAX were very easy to work with.
 
I went though the LASFRA on my first solo cross country. I still use it every chance I get. So cool to see airliners blasting into the air and reaching your altitude in just a few seconds.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
kyleb said:
Atlanta is busier. The airspace is also bigger and doesn't have a published VFR corridor. That means most VFR traffic gets pushed outside ATL's airspace. Effectively, they have fixed the problem by all but denying the airspace.

You can request a VFR "corridor" flight. Every time I've done that, I got the feeling that they would rather not deal with VFR traffic. Most of the locals I know just dodge around the edges and under the tiers.
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I've noticed that, too. I get pushed around most of the time with the JRAMS3 arrival, but I have been vectored over ATL a few times. Clearance through Bravo is pretty rare, but the airspace isn't difficult otherwise. I guess the lack of busy secondary airports makes the area easier than LAX or somewhere in the northeast US.
 
EWR doesn't have a published corridor, but I've never been denied a clearance over the top of it (always over the numbers for whichever runways are in use). The one time I flew in and out of ATL, I heard another guy calling for a transition through the Bravo, heading north to south. He was cleared into it with instructions to cross overhead.

The airspace over LAX serves many masters, as evidenced by all those operations.

If I was local, I'd be using the miniroute on short hops and the Coastal Route on XC's.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Still, I love having controllers help me look for traffic and help cover my a#$. The uncontrolled Special Flight Rules Corridor scares me...though there has been only one mid-air since it opened (but pilots will tell you about many close calls!).
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When was there a mid-air in the SFRA corridor?
 
stratobee said:
LAX Bravo is like stealing candy from kids compared to the San Diego Bravo. That's a mess.
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Trained for my PPL in San Diego (Montgomery), makes flying anywhere else no big deal...
 
Edit: nevermind, I was thinking of the wrong SFRA. Had in my mind the NYC SFRA where there was a midair in 2009 (before it became the SFRA), but realized the post I was replying to was about the LAX SFRA.
 
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N801BH said:
Didn't a Warrior smack a DC-9 over by Cerritios ? sp..
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Sure did. That was back in 1986, but the SFRA in LA wasn't put into place until 2003, I believe.
 
A Warrior did hit a DC-9. I thought it's because he entered the TCA after getting lost, though?
 
stratobee said:
LAX Bravo is like stealing candy from kids compared to the San Diego Bravo. That's a mess.
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I spent the previous 5 years based out of MYF. Why do you say that?

San Diego airspace may be complex and busy, but they'll clear you into the Bravo half the time without you even having to ask.
 
stratobee said:
LAX Bravo is like stealing candy from kids compared to the San Diego Bravo. That's a mess.
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There is a Bravo down that way? /snarkoff

Honestly, ATC seems to hand out Bravo clearances down there whenever you even start getting close.
 
comanchepilot said:
There is a Bravo down that way? /snarkoff

Honestly, ATC seems to hand out Bravo clearances down there whenever you even start getting close.
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Exactly. If you are so much as pointed toward the San Diego B. SoCal will typically preemptively clear you in.
 
I've only flown down from LA to Diego a few times, but combined with Camp Pendletons/Miramar's restricted airspace and the layered Bravo, I found it hard work. But I never did ask for transit through the B - I'll ask for that next time.
 
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