The Academics of IR Rating

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
I recently completed day 4 of a 12 day online ground school and the limitation of not having an in-person class has surfaced: the inability to engage with the instructor on a point of instruction. I pulled this post from another thread that is relevant to my upcoming question.

Tools said:
1. Test. Gouge up, memorize and pass. Like you said, it’s not really the learning. It’s an orientation and administrative requirement. Make no more, no less of it than this.

2. Instrument flying is three things. A) Flying by reference to instruments. B) Navigating by reference to instruments. C) Knowing the regulations.

a). Scan pattern. Gyro nose, gyro wing, gyro nose, gyro wing, gyro performance, gyro other, lather rinse repeat. The gyro is the center of your world. Learn to put the pipper where you want it and keep it there. It’s akin to looking outside when vfr. Power plus attitude equals performance. Set your power, set your attitude (pipper placement) you will get what you expect. Trim the pressure out. This means... you want straight level 80 mph. X rpm, pipper Y degrees (to a 1/4 degree or half of its size) nose up, and memorize the expected trim change and ultimate position. Learn these settings for practically every possible condition. It’s actually finite... Airplanes are predictable and stable. If one parameter is off, so is another. If your fast, your likely low, for example. Get and keep the airplane hands off. Doing this allows you time to do (b) navigate.

B) Navigating is the art of REALLY understanding: the head falls and the tail rises. Plain and simple. But not to be underestimated.

C) Really understanding this allows you the time to parse weather for minimums, radio transmissions into clearances, decipher approach plates and but mostly public math (degrees per second, distance between radials, d=rt, fuel flow, dimensional analysis, even Celsius to Fahrenheit, etc)! Predict everything.

It’s a very disciplined and rewarding skill. Your plane is perfectly equipped. Use your iPad with positioning off so it’s basically a chart. Navigate with the VORs. If you can do that, this is easy.

Once you start simply assimilating this, you are ready to test. Just like you are ready to solo once you can simply land by looking outside and feeling the airplane. But attack it in the order above. Notice it’s precariously close to aviate, navigate, communicate. This stuff is ripe for a simulator.

Tools
Click to expand...

My learning style means that I get the most from engagement when the reading part isn't clear. In this instance, I did a test and didn't do as well as I wanted on interpreting positional information given navigational displays. I'm thinking of hiring a local CFI(I) just for any confusing or misunderstood material..someone that specifically acts as an instrument tutor, but most local CFIs wouldn't want someone that rings them occasionally when getting stuck, as sometimes the primary instructional method can be a mismatch for the student, making more work for the tutor.

What might be a good choice to help me with understanding the material? My goal is to be able to sit for the IR written at the end of Day 12.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I recently completed day 4 of a 12 day online ground school and the limitation of not having an in-person class has surfaced: the inability to engage with the instructor on a point of instruction. I pulled this post from another thread that is relevant to my upcoming question.

You could post questions here, but with only 8 days to go I doubt if that will work with your day 12 goal. How well are


My learning style means that I get the most from engagement when the reading part isn't clear. In this instance, I did a test and didn't do as well as I wanted on interpreting positional information given navigational displays. I'm thinking of hiring a local CFI(I) just for any confusing or misunderstood material..someone that specifically acts as an instrument tutor, but most local CFIs wouldn't want someone that rings them occasionally when getting stuck, as sometimes the primary instructional method can be a mismatch for the student, making more work for the tutor.

What might be a good choice to help me with understanding the material? My goal is to be able to sit for the IR written at the end of Day 12.
Click to expand...

You could ask questions here but I doubt if that would help much with your day 12 goal only 8 days away. How well did you do on the test? A passing score at least? What course is it?
EDIT: Was it VOR you were talking about when you said “...didn't do as well as I wanted on interpreting positional information given navigational displays...”
 
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Online learning is not for everyone. We fight this battle in the Computer Science Depts everyday. You’d think CS depts would be the first to embrace and implement online learning but nope just for the reason the OP makes. You really need to be able to ask questions. No online learning system can anticipate every question or create alternative explanations when the student doesn’t get it the first time.
 
murphey said:
Online learning is not for everyone. We fight this battle in the Computer Science Depts everyday. You’d think CS depts would be the first to embrace and implement online learning but nope just for the reason the OP makes. You really need to be able to ask questions. No online learning system can anticipate every question or create alternative explanations when the student doesn’t get it the first time.
Click to expand...

I agree - I've been working with online learning on and off for 40 years and the ability to engage outside of the training is a critical component. Hands on training in topics is usually the best and you have to get really creative to help someone learn something.

A great example is UND's training for the electrical system of a 172S with G1000. By being able to play with switches and pop fuses, it's possible to really, really learn what's going on.

http://avitmedia.aero.und.edu/c172sElectrical/index.html

One of my big take aways is that the "ALT" master switch isn't a switch on the power coming from the alternator, it's power to the control circuits and the relay. That circuit feeds off the crossfeed bus, so if you ever lose the crossfeed bus (pretty much if the battery master is off or the power module blows), you lose the alternator even if it's otherwise good.

For the OP's topic, I can envision something that lets you move an airplane around a map and change headings and it could show you what the navigation indicator do, maybe have the plane slowly move forward and watch change. But that would require a bit of development time and it winds up being just one small piece of the information you need to learn. The effort to return is very difficult to justify.
 
I would have thought given you know your 'limitations' (prefer engagement) that would have gone into the thought process before signing up for something that doesn't have engagement.

but wait, this is just a class to prep for the written? sorry, I read like every other word or so........
 
bflynn said:
For the OP's topic, I can envision something that lets you move an airplane around a map and change headings and it could show you what the navigation indicator do, maybe have the plane slowly move forward and watch change. But that would require a bit of development time and it winds up being just one small piece of the information you need to learn. The effort to return is very difficult to justify.
Click to expand...
This site has been really useful as a demonstration tool.

Nauga,
and the visual approach
 
nauga said:
This site has been really useful as a demonstration tool.

Nauga,
and the visual approach
Click to expand...
Cool site! I wish I'd known about that back when I was learning IR

To the OP: I did the Kings school for IR ground, which is *okay* but found the majority of my learning to come from the actual flying part
 
I took an in-person traditional ground school. It was based on the Jeppesen-Sanderson materials which i have to say is about THE WORST material for the instrument rating.

Later I did the John and Martha King tapes (VHS ... gives you an idea how long ago this was). That's where I learned much of the info. Also read Kernsher's book and others.

For the immediate exam test prep, I used Irwin Gleim's material. It's the best drill-and-kill that I can suggest.

These days, the first thing I would suggest is that you download the following FAA materials. It's free and a lot of it is directly used to make the questions on the exam:

Instrument Flying Handbook: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf
Instrument Procedures Handbook: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/
Aviation Weather: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentid/1029851

Then go back over your AIM and read the stuff applicable to instrument flight, it should make more sense now.
 
TCABM said:
Good example. Believe it or not, but that type
of simulation is a huge undertaking for most instructional designers, but works well.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. The paypack for the effort of simulation development is very low.
 
I ever get to start the IR again I'll do the Sporty's course, read Machado's book and whatever else. Never stepped inside a classroom for any of this and am not starting now.
 
I did Sporty's I still take the tests a couple years later to keep the knowledge fresh, then watch the corresponding videos for any areas that need refreshing. Worked great for me, but it wasn't a quick process.
 
luvflyin said:
For just written test taking, this about the best thing I have ever seen. Scroll down a bit to where the video is. I’m assuming @Jaybird180 ’s issue is VOR.

https://www.funplacestofly.com/blog.asp?ID=3344
Click to expand...
More precisely we were given an HSI to interpret. I've never seen one IRL except on the G1000 and I have only a few hours sitting behind one, but when I did....I used GPS.

To clarify my OP: The class was borne from the pandemic. It's Checkride Prep and the instructor is LIVE but the feedback capability is via chat, not really conducive to stopping an instructor with a raised hand at that instant.
 
Passing the written is one small part of it, but the better you learn it, the smoother the rest of it will go.
 
I took the written before I started training. I used gold seal and read the faa books. It worked for me; I got a 95. That said, I didn't really understand a lot of the stuff I "learned". Avclicks does a nice job of explaining a lot of the practicalities, but some things still didn't click until I started flying with my ii. If I had it to do over again I'd do the written concurrently with the practical training.
 
bflynn said:
I agree - I've been working with online learning on and off for 40 years and the ability to engage outside of the training is a critical component. Hands on training in topics is usually the best and you have to get really creative to help someone learn something.

A great example is UND's training for the electrical system of a 172S with G1000. By being able to play with switches and pop fuses, it's possible to really, really learn what's going on.

http://avitmedia.aero.und.edu/c172sElectrical/index.html

One of my big take aways is that the "ALT" master switch isn't a switch on the power coming from the alternator, it's power to the control circuits and the relay. That circuit feeds off the crossfeed bus, so if you ever lose the crossfeed bus (pretty much if the battery master is off or the power module blows), you lose the alternator even if it's otherwise good.

For the OP's topic, I can envision something that lets you move an airplane around a map and change headings and it could show you what the navigation indicator do, maybe have the plane slowly move forward and watch change. But that would require a bit of development time and it winds up being just one small piece of the information you need to learn. The effort to return is very difficult to justify.
Click to expand...
http://www.luizmonteiro.com/learning_vor_sim.aspx is exactly what you're talking about.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/nav/vorzip/index.html is another one.
 
I haven't taken the written and I won't until I'm quite a ways into the training. The actual experience will make the rote learning quite a bit easier, and I'm not retaking the damn test.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I recently completed day 4 of a 12 day online ground school and the limitation of not having an in-person class has surfaced: the inability to engage with the instructor on a point of instruction. I pulled this post from another thread that is relevant to my upcoming question.



My learning style means that I get the most from engagement when the reading part isn't clear. In this instance, I did a test and didn't do as well as I wanted on interpreting positional information given navigational displays. I'm thinking of hiring a local CFI(I) just for any confusing or misunderstood material..someone that specifically acts as an instrument tutor, but most local CFIs wouldn't want someone that rings them occasionally when getting stuck, as sometimes the primary instructional method can be a mismatch for the student, making more work for the tutor.

What might be a good choice to help me with understanding the material? My goal is to be able to sit for the IR written at the end of Day 12.
Click to expand...

If you are taking an online ground school, presumably you are planning to start flight training soon (I hope!). Do you not have a CFII already picked out, or a relationship with one? That person would be the best to ask questions of.

If I fly with someone (even just once!), they know they can always contact me with questions about whatever they need help with. And the ones I've been flying with a while absolutely know that and take advantage of it. Anything from written test prep to aircraft problems to operating tips to helping them review the weather for an upcoming flight. I have no problem helping them, heck if nothing else it's enlightened self-interest as they will hire me for more training in the future.

Now, if the question is "can you explain VORs to me", well that's a "let's get together and do some (yes, paid) ground school" kind of question. But for a quick explanation over the phone or by text, there's no charge. I don't mind at all.
 
RussR said:
If you are taking an online ground school, presumably you are planning to start flight training soon (I hope!). Do you not have a CFII already picked out, or a relationship with one? That person would be the best to ask questions of.

If I fly with someone (even just once!), they know they can always contact me with questions about whatever they need help with. And the ones I've been flying with a while absolutely know that and take advantage of it. Anything from written test prep to aircraft problems to operating tips to helping them review the weather for an upcoming flight. I have no problem helping them, heck if nothing else it's enlightened self-interest as they will hire me for more training in the future.

Now, if the question is "can you explain VORs to me", well that's a "let's get together and do some (yes, paid) ground school" kind of question. But for a quick explanation over the phone or by text, there's no charge. I don't mind at all.
Click to expand...

This ^^^^. Especially good to have a relationship like this for a go/no go sanity check.
 
I took the same course your taking back in March.
Took all their quizzes and practice test until I was scoring in the 90’s. They’ll say you’ll drop about 5 points on the actual.
Sat for the written, and after 6 questions I knew I was in trouble. Ended up with a 75.
You’ll need a lot more than they will give you.
If I did it again I’d do a drill and kill like Sheppard with the online course.

There a bunch of people here that know everything, all ya got to do is ask.
 
Jaybird180 said:
More precisely we were given an HSI to interpret. I've never seen one IRL except on the G1000 and I have only a few hours sitting behind one, but when I did....I used GPS.

To clarify my OP: The class was borne from the pandemic. It's Checkride Prep and the instructor is LIVE but the feedback capability is via chat, not really conducive to stopping an instructor with a raised hand at that instant.
Click to expand...

I thought you would say HSI. They are far more intuitive to use in flight than on a written test.

For the written first remember that an HSI is a CDI superimposed over a heading indicator. Often, incorrect answer choices can be eliminated based on heading alone.

For VOR, the needle head points to whatever OBS setting the pilot has chosen, and if the TO/FROM ambiguity indicator points in the same direction, it's a TO, and if it points in the opposite direction, it's a FROM. Using this allows you to solve an HSI question the same way as a conventional CDI question (which assumes you can do so reliably and accurately, which may or may not be the case).

For Localizer, well I was going to say the needle always deflects toward the right (in the case of an HSI, right with respect to the arrow head) when the aircraft is on the shaded side and vice versa, but in their infinite wisdom I see the FAA has reversed which side is shaded and which isn't in the current instrument rating testing supplement. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Another thing to keep in mind is that a given indication on a CDI or HSI can result from two different positions, one on the front course and one on the back course.
 
manac said:
I took the same course your taking back in March.
Took all their quizzes and practice test until I was scoring in the 90’s. They’ll say you’ll drop about 5 points on the actual.
Sat for the written, and after 6 questions I knew I was in trouble. Ended up with a 75.
You’ll need a lot more than they will give you.
If I did it again I’d do a drill and kill like Sheppard with the online course.

There a bunch of people here that know everything, all ya got to do is ask.
Click to expand...
To what do you attribute your poor preparation? Was the material provided inadequate or was there something amiss on your part?
 
Re-read my post, the answer is in it.:cool:

If you take the Sheppard’s test you’ll see if your ready.

“Took all their quizzes and practice test until I was scoring in the 90’s” (Two days before I sat for the test) Thought I was good to go.

I’m not saying anything negative about the course, there’r trying and I think improving.
 
manac said:
...
Sat for the written, and after 6 questions I knew I was in trouble. Ended up with a 75.
Click to expand...

and 70 is all you need to pass the knowledge test, right?

so, you did fine.
 
70 passes, but you’ll get a tougher check ride.
You’re test slip shows all the areas you got wrong answers.
At least I know where I need to spend some extra effort at.
 
manac said:
70 passes, but you’ll get a tougher check ride.
You’re test slip shows all the areas you got wrong answers.
At least I know where I need to spend some extra effort at.
Click to expand...

the flip side (but probably urban legend) is that scoring a 100 means the examiner will try to stump the candidate...(I can just imagine an examiner thinking "college boy" ...homage to a TV series...)
 
Ya, you wouldn’t want to be perfect everybody would hate you.
 
RussR said:
Do you not have a CFII already picked out, or a relationship with one? That person would be the best to ask questions of
Click to expand...
manac said:
drill and kill like Sheppard with the online course
Click to expand...

Highly recommend a combination of these two things. Plus a few more:
1. Get a CFII. Ask what ground school and books they recommend. For me, it was the Jeppesen book (the one with IR and Comm combined). Also the instrument flying handbook and instrument procedures handbook. Real page turners. Read the latter when you can't sleep. But seriously, read them.
2. When your CFII thinks you are pretty close to having enough IR knowledge crammed into your cranium, call Sheppard.
3. Follow the Sheppard system to-the-letter. I can't stress this enough. Don't deviate from the system. It works. I am not a vurrry smaaaaart pursen and I got a 100 on the IR written. Seriously. About both not being smrt and also acing the written. Follow the Sheppard system to-the-letter. (there, I repeated it. again).
4. Get signed off for the written, take it, ace it and move on.
5. Now on to the hard stuff - prepping for oral and flying portions of the checkride....

Bob Noel said:
the flip side (but probably urban legend) is that scoring a 100 means the examiner will try to stump the candidate
Click to expand...

In my case, it was suburban legend. I didn't feel my IR DPE was trying to stump me with anything just because I aced the written. But, as with all things in life and on PoA... YMMV.

good luck.
 
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