That Sinking Feeling (Landings)

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 24, 2005
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Montgomery County PA
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Adam Zucker
Thankfully I have never really botched a landing and I haven't bounced since my first solo a few years ago so that's a plus. Sometimes however I think to myself..."man I'm gonna grease this one" my speed is good my directional control is good, my flare is just about right, I may be in some ground effect but things are generally pretty good, then I feel it, its that sinking feeling, like the plane is dropping under me, I wait and wait and then think oh sh*# am I gonna bounce like a superball? The stall horn squeaks a bit then we hit the Asphalt. I don't bounce but sometimes its a solid contact. The sinking feeling is disconcerting and I think it would make a pax feel uncomfortable.
My questions are:

Does this happen to anyone else?

and

What am I doing wrong? I suspect its flaring to high or bringing to much speed over the threshold. I usually carry 70-75 kts in either the Tiger or Archer.

Thanks for your input!!

Adam Zucker
 
I still bounce one once in a while, despite my best efforts. I seem to not always retain my muscle memory for the flare like I should, and every once in a while default to my flatter landings. My CFI has recommended that I get back into doing "mains only" touch and goes sometime to take some rust off the flare.

I don't know where you are in the ratings process, but you will definitely get your landings tested during practice approaches. Nothing like the ILS with a 5 knot tailwind to test your float vs. bounce propensities. At least for me anyway.

As an aside, good to see another eastern PA attorney on the board. Arnold Feldman fits that mold as well. We will have to get the eastern PA people together for a fly out sometime :)

Jim G
 
75 knots in the Tiger is a little fast Adam. At or near gross, 70 - 72 knots is fine. If I'm lighter I drop 1 knot for every hundred pounds under gross. I am no CFI, I can just tell you how I do it. When I get that sinking feeling in my butt and it seems like I'm sinking too fast, I add just a little power to arrest the sink and then let it settle.
 
I think you land better than I do (at 100 hrs. with Private).

I don't usually bounce anymore, but I do tend to flare too late and too little and sometimes crunch onto the runway when things are busy (like crosswinds). Not bad enough to bend anything, but enough to give the struts a workout.

I expect that to improve over time, and it does get markedly better after a pattern work session.
 
75 knots seems fast to me, I'm usually down around 75mph or less over the numbers in my m20e. Carry a bit of power to arrest the sink or just flare lower. I usually level off as low as I think is prudent and flare when I feel the deceleration rate increase. If you climb any while leveling off your carrying too much speed...add power to arrest the sink as you flare too high:)
Pete
 
AdamZ said:
The sinking feeling is disconcerting and I think it would make a pax feel uncomfortable....

What am I doing wrong?... I usually carry 70-75 kts in either the Tiger or Archer. Adam Zucker
Click to expand...
Adam, back to basics. Whether in the Archer or in the Tiger 75 kts is a bit quick...but that's OK if you have 3500 feet of runway. Rethink the flare- don't move the yoke on final until the ground is a tad uncomfortably close; hold it--->wait for that sinking feeling in the butt; look 2/3rds of the way down the runway....when it sinks, a little more yoke motion rearward....when it sinks, a little more yoke motion rearward. Try to do this alll within 3 feet of the surface. Stall horn blaring-->still no touch (and have good runway left) add 100 rpm and continue....then you have a soft field touchdown.

To get a renewed sight picture of two-three feet off the runway, find a good crosswind, and do the "upwind wheel on the ground" exercise taxiing with the nose wheel off the pavement. A CFI in the right seat can help keep you safe while you re-figure it out. Spend your eyeball time using your peripheral vision and looking 2/3rd of the way out.

I think, no matter what what you speed, you're judging height off the runway a bit higher than you really want or need to be in flare.

When I am ferrying an aircraft whose type I haven't flown in a while, the departure is always an in ground effect departure-acceleration. I'm re-learning the sight picture!

Best,
Bruce Chien CFIA
 
Adam;

It happens to all of us sometimes when we feel we have it alright. Bruce says it so well in his post. I find when in that situation is ai get the plane in ground effect and just ease back and add a touch of power. I sometimes fly a Comanche and it is very different from the Beech I fly. It needs just to be on speed and let it get close to the ground and ease the elevator back with just a touch of power It touches down on the mains with a slight squeak . The Beech is so nice to land and it does it from just easing back and reducing power as you flair. All our planes have that nice "Sweet Spot" and it takes time to find it. If I am unfamiler I go out with a CFI and work on it so I can feel the plane's sweet spot.

It will come to you as you practice;

Best
John J
 
Thanks guys, I'm rethinking this and I often come across the numbers @ 65kts when I have been flying on a regular basis ( ie more flying higher confidence level). I usually have no problem with runway legnth as most places I fly have 3500' to 6000' guess I just have to knock the dust off from winter.

Adam Zucker
 
AdamZ said:
Thanks guys, I'm rethinking this and I often come across the numbers @ 65kts when I have been flying on a regular basis ( ie more flying higher confidence level). I usually have no problem with runway legnth as most places I fly have 3500' to 6000' guess I just have to knock the dust off from winter.

Adam Zucker
Click to expand...


Adam. Do some landings and takeoffs at Pottstown Muni, N47. 2,700 ft. and cheap gas. Say hi to my hangar sub-tenant in hangar #7. He has a Mooney. Really, it will prep you nicely for that trip to BID. :)
 
AdamZ said:
Thankfully I have never really botched a landing and I haven't bounced since my first solo a few years ago so that's a plus. Sometimes however I think to myself..."man I'm gonna grease this one" my speed is good my directional control is good, my flare is just about right, I may be in some ground effect but things are generally pretty good, then I feel it, its that sinking feeling, like the plane is dropping under me, I wait and wait and then think oh sh*# am I gonna bounce like a superball? The stall horn squeaks a bit then we hit the Asphalt. I don't bounce but sometimes its a solid contact. The sinking feeling is disconcerting and I think it would make a pax feel uncomfortable.
My questions are:

Does this happen to anyone else?

and

What am I doing wrong? I suspect its flaring to high or bringing to much speed over the threshold. I usually carry 70-75 kts in either the Tiger or Archer.

Thanks for your input!!

Adam Zucker
Click to expand...

Nope, this only happens to you. :dance: Seriously, you're just a bit too high off the runway when the plane quits flying, let your flare settle in a little lower. One of the things I do when checking myself out in a single seat plane, is I will taxi around high speed in landing attitude and just look out the windows, back and forth a few times. This trains your mind to the sight picture at touchdown. Might help, ya never can tell what will help any certain person, so you try a bunch of things till you find one that works.:cheerio:
 
Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

grattonja said:
As an aside, good to see another eastern PA attorney on the board. Arnold Feldman fits that mold as well. We will have to get the eastern PA people together for a fly out sometime :)
Click to expand...
If no objections, invite Long Island as well! I'm not an attorney, but I can get there.
 
AdamZ said:
Thanks guys, I'm rethinking this and I often come across the numbers @ 65kts when I have been flying on a regular basis ( ie more flying higher confidence level). I usually have no problem with runway legnth as most places I fly have 3500' to 6000' guess I just have to knock the dust off from winter.

Adam Zucker
Click to expand...
Adam, besides what everyone else has said, this sometimes happens to me when there's very little wind. I "forget" that I'm going to use up more runway landing when I don't have that wind pushing me back. I get a little bit impatient and think I ought to be landing shorter than the plane wants to. Have to remember to put in blurp of power or else I thunk down.
 
AdamZ said:
My questions are:

Does this happen to anyone else?
Click to expand...

No it never happens to me--ever. I land perfectly all the time, you should know better than to ask!
AdamZ said:
and

What am I doing wrong? I suspect its flaring to high or bringing to much speed over the threshold. I usually carry 70-75 kts in either the Tiger or Archer.
Click to expand...
Well, this other guy that I know sometimes has this problem. When I--ahem!--I mean, when he carries too much power on final he has told me that it might result in an extended flare in light singles. In light planes like the C172 or Archer, I try to be power off on final. If I have to carry some power on final, I smoothly reduce power a bit (maybe not to idle) when I have the runway made, but before initiating the flare--smoothly so the pitch-down moment is gradual and easily managed. Don't let your airspeed get too low, though.

In a heavier single, I carry power all the way into leveling out a few feet above the runway. Then I gradually reduce to idle in concert with the butt-sink/nose-raise dance.

It sounds like (but I wasn't there) that in your case you are simply too fast on final, and possibly flaring a bit too high. Even if you are smooth and coordinated, if you are too fast, you just get level right there without descending. Really, when you're leveling off, you're also still descending. I like to reach the "level" stage about a couple of feet above the runway, when I'm lucky.
 
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Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

Toby said:
If no objections, invite Long Island as well! I'm not an attorney, but I can get there.
Click to expand...


I think, in the May-June timeframe, we need to do a POA flyout for ALL the east coast people. We have eastern PA, Del, MD, NJ, NY, DC etc all covered here, and we could have quite a good flyout somewhere. Crabcakes? Lobster? Shrimp? We could go south to the Carolinas, North the ME. But I think a flyout is in order.

Jim G
 
Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

grattonja said:
I think, in the May-June timeframe, we need to do a POA flyout for ALL the east coast people. We have eastern PA, Del, MD, NJ, NY, DC etc all covered here, and we could have quite a good flyout somewhere. Crabcakes? Lobster? Shrimp? We could go south to the Carolinas, North the ME. But I think a flyout is in order.

Jim G
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There's some crabcake place in MD that people are always writing about -- I don't remember where. Or we could go to Block Island or Martha's Vineyard.

Just as long as it's not the last weekend in June -- that's Gaston's!
 
The tried and true guideline of Vso x 1.3 for normal landings and 1.2 x for short field always seems to work well for landing speed calculations. Not sure what a Tiger stalls at but the formula works for me every time in whatever type.
 
acrodisiac said:
The tried and true guideline of Vso x 1.3 for normal landings and 1.2 x for short field always seems to work well for landing speed calculations.
Click to expand...

For all the light planes I've flown, I agree completely.

acrodisiac said:
Not sure what a Tiger stalls at but the formula works for me every time in whatever type.
Click to expand...

By the book, it's about 55 KCAS flaps down in a Tiger, which comes to about 70 KIAS on final if you're loaded up. With one or two people and half tanks, more like 65 KIAS to avoid that L-O-N-G float. Remember to convert those to mph if you're flying a '75 or '76 Tiger.
 
70-75 is pretty fast for an Archer: POH gives 66 kt for full gross. I use (PA28-181)

Full gross - 65
1 PAX - 60-65
Solo 55-60

all assuming that there's no nastiness like gusts and LLWS.
 
Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

Toby said:
There's some crabcake place in MD that people are always writing about -- I don't remember where. Or we could go to Block Island or Martha's Vineyard.

Just as long as it's not the last weekend in June -- that's Gaston's!
Click to expand...


I'm not a "babes" member, so I have not followed the Gaston thing. What's it all about. Sounds like a big fly-in. Where at?

Block Island or Martha's Vineyard both sound like fun trips to me. I haven't been to either yet. Tangier Island should definitely be in play as well. My wife and I have been contemplating that trip for a while.

Jim G
 
Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

grattonja said:
I'm not a "babes" member, so I have not followed the Gaston thing. What's it all about. Sounds like a big fly-in. Where at?
Jim G
Click to expand...

A Gaston's fly-in is scheduled for June 25th & 26th. Here's information about it: http://www.eaa732.org/aopa/

I'm sure Diana will be along shortly to provide more info. :)

Chip
 
Re: That Sinking Feeling - thread creep

gibbons said:
A Gaston's fly-in is scheduled for June 25th & 26th. Here's information about it: http://www.eaa732.org/aopa/

I'm sure Diana will be along shortly to provide more info. :)

Chip
Click to expand...

You know me so well, Chip. ;)

We had our first AOPA WebBoard fly-in last year at Gaston's White River Resort in north central Arkansas. Chip and I organized it. It wasn't a Babes fly-in, but Babes were invited, and are invited again this year. :)

This year we have also extended our invitation to the Citabria Forum folks, EAA chapters, and anybody else who wants to come.

I started a thread here back in March to remind people

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?t=422

Several people that are here on the PoA forum now were able to attend last year (several of us even went flying together), and several more planned to come, but the weather was a mess across most of the country.

I have lots of pictures of everybody from last year if anybody wants to see more than what I posted on the other thread.

Hope you can make it :)
 
AdamZ said:
Thanks guys, I'm rethinking this and I often come across the numbers @ 65kts when I have been flying on a regular basis ( ie more flying higher confidence level). I usually have no problem with runway legnth as most places I fly have 3500' to 6000' guess I just have to knock the dust off from winter.
Click to expand...

Dr. Chien's butt sink method works well and is a good way to relate to landings. One thing I don't think was addressed here is that you might simply not be pulling back enough on the yoke in the last stage of the flare. Pilots often have such an ingrained reaction to the stall horn that they cannot apply more up elevator once the horn "chirps". Since it sounds like you are attempting a full stall landing, your goal should be to actually stall just before contact. That requires more up elevator (sometimes lots more) after the stall horn starts sounding. For a full stall landing you should be doing all you can to prevent the plane from landing, elevator wise, and unless the yoke is in your gut, you're not there yet.

Now if all you want is consistently smooth landings, a full stall might not be the best choice, especially in a tricycle airplane. An easy way to pull off a greaser is to simply decrease the sink rate to a very small amount once you get within a foot of the runway, using power to keep the airspeed from decaying too far. This is the way a lot of folks land, and you'll hear them say that you have to carry a little power into the flare and touchdown to get a smooth landing. The downsides are that you will wear the tires faster and use more (sometimes a lot more) runway than necessary. In addition if you carry this too far you'll end up touching down nosewheel first and that's very, very bad.
 
acrodisiac said:
The tried and true guideline of Vso x 1.3 for normal landings and 1.2 x for short field always seems to work well for landing speed calculations. Not sure what a Tiger stalls at but the formula works for me every time in whatever type.
Click to expand...

I like your userid.
 
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