TFRs, Secured Assetts vs Security Theater

[Henning]

The NATO TFR thread got me thinking wouldn't it be simpler to permanently protect high value targets with equipment like Phalanx rather than to go through security theater?

Ever since the dude crashed into the White House we've had it there. If we are actually 'at war' with our war on terror, why don't we act it? If attacking aircraft are the threat why aren't we armed against that threat? We all know the realities of dispatching a plane or helo to shoot down an attacker, they'll show up in time to take the first (unless a news chopper is closer already covering the event) aerial photos of the aftermath, I don't care how close the base and if the guy is sitting 'runway ready' poised to light the burners.

We have a great weapons system for taking all or most of the energy out of an approaching projectile and rendering both its kinetic energy and conventional explosive force ineffective at the distances engaged.

Lets just get the high value targets secured with some R2D2 pods and give the local NG units a couple mobiles on flatbeds to secure random events and just get on with our lives.

 

[flyingron]

I don't think anything was in place after the guy crashed the 150 in to the tree at the White House, the stuff on the New EOB didn't show up until after 9/11. It appears to be a couple of pods of missles rather than Phalanx (which is good because Phalanx assumes the threat is coming towards it).

Of course the only time anti-aircraft weapons were fired in DC was during WWII, when a gun battery on top of the Department of Agriculture lobbed a shell at the Lincoln Memorial (easy thing to site on). It hit just below the state name "Maryland" on the frieze of the names of the states that were in the union when Lincoln was president. You can see the different marble color there where it was fixed up.

The bigger issue is that of colateral damage. Wayward missiles and partially destroyed aircraft are weighted against just keeping the key people away from the potential impact area.

 

[Henning]

The bigger issue is that of colateral damage. Wayward missiles and partially destroyed aircraft are weighted against just keeping the key people away from the potential impact area.

My understanding is that Phalanx went on the WH the week after the plane hit it. I remeber hearing/reading about it long before 9/11

As for collateral damage, not as great an issue as you may think. Remember that the meeting energies of the 20mm lead and the incoming projectile are cancelling each other out by tearing each other up so what you end up with is a bunch of bits and pieces falling at or near terminal velocity. Shattering the warhead casing of most missiles is within the capabilities of 20mm ammo as well and that seriously reduces the deliverable force of any explosive device if not rendering it inactive/inert.

 

[Pi1otguy]

What about the dozens of rounds that completely miss the target?

 

[Henning]

What about the dozens of rounds that completely miss the target?

They hit the ground spent at terminal velocity since they'll be firing upwards. You can limit the range of the fire sector. It's far less energy and threat than the loaded projectile hitting a crowd. There is no Illudium Q-34 Space Modulator or other disintegration ray option here. There is no option that when required will have no harmful consequences, waiting for that to happen is a non reality. What we need to find is BEST solutions we have available. Security theater backed with media frenzy and countering assets too far away to do any good (not to mention they'll use the same fire power as the Phalanx or greater in a shoot down mode rather than shoot up) is not what I consider anything near a 'best solution'.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

How about the politicians man up (that's for you Henning), give us our freedom back, and accept any troubles that may come their way?
Personal responsibility. Accept a political job, you accept the problems it brings.
The last thing that should happen is the citizens have their travel in a free country hampered.

 

[Henning]

How about the politicians man up (that's for you Henning), give us our freedom back, and accept any troubles that may come their way?
Personal responsibility. Accept a political job, you accept the problems it brings.
The last thing that should happen is the citizens have their travel in a free country hampered.

Right, but at the same time they are tasked with providing for a common defense by the Constitution so it's not like they can say 'you're on your own'. The trick is to find the least intrusive way to society to effect the most defense. I still think the Phalanx type of system is the best protection with least social disturbance. It just sits there with an operator and if a projectile comes in it goes off, if not, it was a guy and a truck effected, no need to say anything else. You set the TFR, everybody knows not to play act dive bombing the target or an autonomously acting machine will disintegrate them.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

They hit the ground spent at terminal velocity since they'll be firing upwards.

Like a couple of ounces of U238 or tungsten hitting you at 100+ MPH won't leave a mark. I'm pretty sure they don't use lead in those things.

 

[Henning]

Like a couple of ounces of U238 or tungsten hitting you at 100+ MPH won't leave a mark. I'm pretty sure they don't use lead in those things.

I'm pretty sure 20MM is lead, I don't think they get into the DU rounds until 30mm, but it's inconsequential really. The amount of damage they will do coming down will be far less than the damage caused not being expended when the large mass it was firing at would have done had they not been fired. Remember, the TFRs are typically at gatherings or other high value targets. Many small outbound low energy projectiles impacting into a much lower density of targets carries a much lower factor of risk than allowing a high energy energy large impact into a high density target environment.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm pretty sure 20MM is lead, I don't think they get into the DU rounds until 30mm, <SNIP>.

Everything I see either indicates either depleted uranium for that round or tungsten for the Phalanx weapon.

I was hoping a military person would chime in with the facts by now.

 

[flyingron]

I do not know of any deployment of Phalanx. I've never heard even any rumors of it. There were rumors of stingers and other surface to air missiles. I'm not sure of any actual sightings until after 9/11 when the current surface-to-air battery was observed.

While lobbing 20mm shells might be pretty effective against a 150, the Phalanx is designed as an anti-missile rather than anti-aircraft defense.

 

[Henning]

I do not know of any deployment of Phalanx. I've never heard even any rumors of it. There were rumors of stingers and other surface to air missiles. I'm not sure of any actual sightings until after 9/11 when the current surface-to-air battery was observed.

While lobbing 20mm shells might be pretty effective against a 150, the Phalanx is designed as an anti-missile rather than anti-aircraft defense.

It throws a wall of high energy mass at incoming projectiles and destroys them while negating their kinetic energy. It's designed to handle things coming in at Mach numbers. I can't see it being ineffective against anything with mass.

 

[Bob Noel]

It throws a wall of high energy mass at incoming projectiles and destroys them while negating their kinetic energy. It's designed to handle things coming in at Mach numbers. I can't see it being ineffective against anything with mass.

Airbus 380 diving on the target. By the time it's in range and destroyed, the debris is going to wipe out the target.

 

[darrell]

They used to (maybe still do?) install trailer-mounted Phalanx systems at some overseas military installations. I saw the one at Camp Liberty next to Baghdad Int'l Airport. They would test fire it every now and then. It was mainly for destroying incoming rockets and mortar rounds.

The 20mm rounds fired by the Phalanx are fused, so they will eventually explode in the air somewhere, so no large projectiles fall to the grounds, although you will have very small bits of shrapnel. But since the individual bits of shrapnel way so much less, it's not nearly as dangerous as the entire round coming down. Never heard of anyone getting hurt by falling shrapnel.

 

[Henning]

Airbus 380 diving on the target. By the time it's in range and destroyed, the debris is going to wipe out the target.

NO! That's just it! It rains down low energy debris, it doesn't wipe out the target; it negates the kinetic energy at the last moment by throwing a greater mass-energy at it. With the targeting/firing system that rig has combined with rate of fire, especially if carry DU rounds it could go wing tip to wing tip or center out in a spiraling sweep and reduce an A380 to aluminum rain and an already expending fuel/air bomb with no compression to form an explosion. All in under a mile....

 

[denverpilot]

Airbus 380 diving on the target. By the time it's in range and destroyed, the debris is going to wipe out the target.

Not a single defensive weapon that'll stop that much mass. Not without raining it down on everything and creating mass casualties and so-called collateral damage.

(Collateral damage is when the innocent get killed but the so-called VIP was saved. As Mel Brooks says, "It's good to be the King!")

 

[Jim Logajan]

Airbus 380 diving on the target. By the time it's in range and destroyed, the debris is going to wipe out the target.

According to Wikipedia, Airbus A380F MTOW is 590,000 kg.
Maximum design speed 551 knots (283 m/s)
So:

M = 590,000 kg
V = 283 m/s
E = M*V*V/2 = 2.36*1010 J

1 kg TNT contains 4.184*106 J

So the kinetic energy is equivalent to 5,647 kgs of TNT.

By comparison the "Mother of All Bombs," the second most powerful non-nuclear bomb so far built, has a yield of about 5*1010 J.

 

[Henning]

Not a single defensive weapon that'll stop that much mass. Not without raining it down on everything and creating mass casualties and so-called collateral damage.

(Collateral damage is when the innocent get killed but the so-called VIP was saved. As Mel Brooks says, "It's good to be the King!")

Understand that most TFRs surround events with large concentrations of people. You rain lower energy mass across a wider area of lower density population rather than allowing a concentrated mass of energy and damage to focus in a large density of people. Consider the difference in results between the twin towers and Pentagon. Just a small miss made a huge difference.