TFR's - even the Fed's foul up!

flyersfan31

flyersfan31

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Freiburgfan31
Just how far do you have to dig to get the absolutely final word on TFR's?!!

Willow Grove NAS (KNXX) class D airspace is very close to the end of rwy 6 @ KLOM, so we're accustomed to treating that airspace as a wall not to be crossed on departures and in the pattern.

There is a big airshow at KNXX this weekend, with the inevitable TFR. AS PUBLISHED, the TFR is centered on a 5nm radius around the Yardley 264 radial @ 11.5mi.

Well, since I hope take a few flights over the next couple days, I figured I'd check and double check the TFR. I fired up Golden Eagle and used the ruler to place a waypoint at the TFR center per the published location. I expected it to be centered on the airport itself, and figured I was engaging in a VERY academic exercise. Well, I scratched my head, because doing so put the center of the TFR a bit north of KNXX. Hmm, well let's set a waypoint with the TFR's Lat/Lon coordinates as published. Guess what? That waypoint was centered on the airport. I wondered if the published location should have read "ARD 254 radial?" Guess what -- 11.5mi on the 254 is directly over the airport.

I'm going to check with FSS to see how they describe it to me - they may just say "there's a 5 mi TFR over KNXX" and leave it at that. Obviously, the best solution is to maintain a wide berth from any TFR (treat 'em like a thunderstorm) but in some situations, like this one where the TFR is so close to our pattern, you'd really like the published info to be correct. Wouldn't you????????
 
(In the spirit of Joe's public acknowledgement of pilot error, I now do the same)

OK, now who's stupid? Well, maybe I'm not stupid, but maybe I should just trust the goverment more.

I was really confused, so I went and pulled out the chart and plotter. Sure looks like KNXX is on the 264 radial as published. Maybe the Feds aren't so dumb.

One more reason to check and double check, because maybe your online planner isn't getting things right. Or maybe things are mispublished. Or maybe you misread them. Or who knows what....

Oh my aching head!!!!!!
 
holy airspace nightmare batman.

i think there is more controlled airports on that little section of chart than in my entire state!
 
tonycondon said:
holy airspace nightmare batman.

i think there is more controlled airports on that little section of chart than in my entire state!
Click to expand...

Awww, there's only one controlled airport in that little snippet... of course there another (PNE) just to the east. But there sure are a whole bucketload of uncontrolled ones around here. Never a lack of places to fly :)

And thanks to Joe for posting those charts.... saves me having to look it up later, since I'm planning a flight from N10, a little to the west of the TFR, tomorrow afternoon. I'll check again tomorrow, of course, but I was wondering if I needed to reposition the plane tonight.
 
ya well i was just looking at the airspace, between allenstown, philly, and that Class D field.

I think there are 5 airports in iowa with control towers. dubuque, waterloo, cedar rapids, des moines, sioux city. closest two are probably waterloo and cedar rapids at about 50 nm. no restricted, prohibited areas, one MOA i think. its really nice to just be able to take off and fly and not have to worry about that crap.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I'm going to check with FSS to see how they describe it to me - they may just say "there's a 5 mi TFR over KNXX" and leave it at that. Obviously, the best solution is to maintain a wide berth from any TFR (treat 'em like a thunderstorm) but in some situations, like this one where the TFR is so close to our pattern, you'd really like the published info to be correct. Wouldn't you????????
Click to expand...
That's precisely how the briefer described it to me this morning (Williamsport FSS). But then I had the impression that the guy was a fellow pilot...
 
Andrew its the same TFR for every airshow at NXX if you are departing KLOM on 24 its not an issue Departing 6 or in the pattern for landing 24 then just stay inside the train tracks in Ambler and you will be good to go. If your over the tracks on a normal day your flying an awful big pattern.
 
AdamZ said:
Andrew its the same TFR for every airshow at NXX if you are departing KLOM on 24 its not an issue Departing 6 or in the pattern for landing 24 then just stay inside the train tracks in Ambler and you will be good to go. If your over the tracks on a normal day your flying an awful big pattern.
Click to expand...
It's not a bad idea to get radar advisories if you can. I remember doing that a few years back and the NXX traffic was straying from their airspace -- Philly approach had to continually vector aircraft including heavy metal around them.
 
tonycondon said:
ya well i was just looking at the airspace, between allenstown, philly, and that Class D field.

I think there are 5 airports in iowa with control towers. dubuque, waterloo, cedar rapids, des moines, sioux city. closest two are probably waterloo and cedar rapids at about 50 nm. no restricted, prohibited areas, one MOA i think. its really nice to just be able to take off and fly and not have to worry about that crap.
Click to expand...

What's really fun is to look a couple miles to the east on that chart. You can see Allentown's Class C, Willow Grove and PNE's Class Ds which share a border and are tucked under Philly's Class B. Just northeast of PNE is Trenton's Class D. A little south is Wilmington's Class D, also tucked under Philly's Class B, and a few miles west is Reading's Class D, complete with an Approach controller, which is kind of weird for a Class D, I thought... a little crowded LOL. ATC here is quite helpful though, which is nice.
 
I flew into San Diego Gillespie when they had an airshow and a TFR. There were times one could fly in and out for arrivals and departures. Had to check with FSS or center. They coordinated with me in a manner which allowed me to schedule things so they weren't disruptive.

So, the TFR may just be certain times, and even during those times, Center may allow traffic in or out if coordinated.

Best,

Dave
 
Yeah, I use the RR trax as the class D boundary normally. It looked to me, on the map, like the TFR went past the RR trax (closer to KLOM). Turning the usual right base at the horse farm kept me out of trouble.

On a side note, while I was at the dept end of 24 setting radios/gps, etc, I had a GREAT view of the USAF Thunderbirds doing a practice session -vertical, low level, the whole nine yards. There is no terrain between Wings and KNXX, so I could even watch the low level passes. I thought about shutting down, kicking back, and watching the show. Then I thought, well, how often do I get away on a Friday afternoon.

Sure reinforced the reason for the TFR though. I wouldn't want to be near those guys when they're roaring through the routine.....
 
tonycondon said:
ya well i was just looking at the airspace, between allenstown, philly, and that Class D field.

I think there are 5 airports in iowa with control towers. dubuque, waterloo, cedar rapids, des moines, sioux city. closest two are probably waterloo and cedar rapids at about 50 nm. no restricted, prohibited areas, one MOA i think. its really nice to just be able to take off and fly and not have to worry about that crap.
Click to expand...

Take a look at the Detroit sectional sometime - I fly out of PTK (Class D) - Flint and Lansing are within 50nm both class C, Detroit class B is just over 30, City, Jackson Saginaw and Willow Run are all within 50 - all class D, then you have Selfridge ANG base about 25 East, the Canadian border a little further that way...

Take a look - 133 hard surface public airports in MI...another 100 with turf or gravel ;)

http://www.sjpdesigns.com/flying/michigan.html/map2.html

(PTK is the green icon just to the east of where Route 23's sign is on the map)
 
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