TFR violation at PHL today

[poadeleted20]

So there we are, cruising along at 4000 feet just south of Modena (MXE) about 11:45 this morning, on our way home from Wilkes-Barre PA after dropping two 4-month old Aussie puppy sisters (cute as you can imagine, but deaf because some dirtbag breeder allowed two Merle Aussies to mate -- super-big no-no for this breed) with their new family, when the following is heard on Guard:

"This is Cherokee 4475J, some F-18 just flew past me -- is he going after someone?"



No warnings, no "turn south/east/west/north immediately and contact FAA," nothing. And no response. So I key the mike:

"Cherokee with the F-18, are you anywhere near Philly? If so, you're in a Presidential TFR."

"This is Cherokee 75J, yes I'm near Philly, but what do I do now? Am I supposed to land? Should I follow the F-18?"

"Listen up and do whatever they tell you to do."

"This is Cherokee 75J, there's an F-18 circling me, what should I do?"

No response on Guard.

Eventually Atlantic City Tower came up on Guard and started relaying commands from the Feds for this guy to land at Hammonton NJ, over which he apparently was at that point. But everybody screwed up on this one! Of course, only 75J's pilot will hang for it, and there's no excuse for not knowing about the TFR (I got my email notification last Thursday and it was in the NOTAMs when I got my DUATS brief this morning) but monitoring Guard doesn't help if the Air Force doesn't give the usual "Aircraft 5 south of XYZ headed north squawking 1200, you are about to enter..." call or even give commands on 121.5 once the intercept is made. I intend to follow up on this one.

 

[Earthroamer]

I wonder if they tape 121.5. Just curious if your exchange might help his stupidity out a little.

Brent Bradford

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Good for you, Ron. I agree that needs a follow-up.

 

[AdamZ]

4475J is a 1967 Cherokee 140. The registered owner lists his address as Medford NJ. Not far from Philly and very close to Hammonton. Don't know how the pilot didn't know about the TFR. I got the email from AOPA as well.
Ron I will be egar to hear what happens as a result of your follow up. I hope AOPA or someone publicizes this communications blunder!

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

is it not true that not all military A/C
can trsnsmit on 121.5 ? I attended a Operation Raincheck at RDU afew years
back and a guest speaker from Seymore Johnson AFB stated this fact.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

My RH CFI (ex Huey pilot) told me that -- they can do both VHF like us and twice the freq which they use in the military -- he said also that the receivers he had in the UH-1 monitored both 121.5 and 243.0 automatically.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

the receivers he had in the UH-1 monitored both 121.5 and 243.0 automatically.

yabut it only works if they don't turn the volume down on their radios, every time I fly over Laughlin moa, center is repeatedly calling one of those guys like...today again!

 

[poadeleted20]

is it not true that not all military A/C
can trsnsmit on 121.5 ?

No, it is true. Many military aircraft have only UHF comm capability, especially the older models.

 

[MSmith]

Hmmmm .... Medford.

Probably VAY or N14. I didn't recognize the name, so probably not a member of my club. The name seems familiar, but not that familiar.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Hmmmm .... Medford.

Probably VAY or N14. I didn't recognize the name, so probably not a member of my club. The name seems familiar, but not that familiar.

Or N73 or N81

 

[MSmith]

Apparently, this pilot IS a member of the club that I belong to, though the plane was not a club plane. He's apparently also a primary student and must have been flying student solo.

This according to my instructor. It's possible that things got garbled along the way.

 

[poadeleted20]

Apparently, this pilot IS a member of the club that I belong to, though the plane was not a club plane. He's apparently also a primary student and must have been flying student solo.

If that's true, his instructor has some explaining to do, too.

 

[jrdodge]

Thank god we won't have any presidential tfr's until the next election. Iowa is good for something!!!

 

[gismo]

Thank god we won't have any presidential tfr's until the next election. Iowa is good for something!!!

Don't count on it. We had one a week ago in Mpls.

 

[judypilot]

No, it is true. Many military aircraft have only UHF comm capability, especially the older models.

But if they're going to use the airplane for THIS type of operation, shouldn't they make sure that it has the capability to transmit on 121.5? Isn't that the whole point? Sounds like the pilot of the Cherokee did one thing right, which was to get on the right frequency.

And people wonder why those of us out here are so glad that the capitol is way, way out east.

Although that's no guarantee. In September, there was a Presidential TFR at MYL in the mountains of Idaho just south of here, which would have made things very interesting, as many planes fly into MYL from the bush, where they can't get briefings because there are no phones, no computers, and no way to contact ATC until you're already in the air (and in the TFR). And some folks might have been there long enough not to hear the advance publicity. Somehow, I suspect the rules were kept unofficially a little loose to account for that circumstance, because I never heard of a problem.

Judy

 

[jesse]

Thank god we won't have any presidential tfr's until the next election. Iowa is good for something!!!

heh. I'm paranoid about them.. check EVERY time before I fly.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Sorry, Judy -- no disrespect intended. Do you really expect that the Gov'ment is compentent? I don't...

 

[Henning]

But if they're going to use the airplane for THIS type of operation, shouldn't they make sure that it has the capability to transmit on 121.5?
Judy

???? Why? Because that's what the rules and proceedures the same government tells us we should use? I can't imagine them using a non VHF equipped aircraft for this mission, but I have seen many things I couln't imagine in my life.... I can't really imagine we have an aircraft in military function that doesn't have VHF capabilities. While HF, UHF, SSB all have some advantages in various arenas, for reliable low meteorological interfrence close in comms, well, thats where VHF really has the upperhand. Just from a quality of comms issue you'd think they'd have them.

 

[grattonja]

Thank god we won't have any presidential tfr's until the next election. Iowa is good for something!!!

Then you are lucky. I live close to the ADIZ. We have little excursions by "Waldo" outside the ADIZ on a frequent basis. He seems to like coming to visit PA. I don't do pattern work anymore without a TFR check.

Jim G

 

[jdwatson]

No, it is true. Many military aircraft have only UHF comm capability, especially the older models.

I wonder how old an F-18 would have to be to not have VHF ? I thought it was a rather modern bird. Drat, there I go thinkin' again !

We've had the discussion before, but I bet not many pilots out there monitor 121.5 on a regular basis.

 

[poadeleted20]

I wonder how old an F-18 would have to be to not have VHF ? I thought it was a rather modern bird.

They've been around for about a quarter of a century now.

I bet not many pilots out there monitor 121.5 on a regular basis.

Given the ever-increasing number of folks I hear calling "entering downwind at Smalltown Muni" on 121.5, I'd say folks are getting the word on the importance of listening there.

 

[poadeleted3]

I wonder how old an F-18 would have to be to not have VHF ? I thought it was a rather modern bird. Drat, there I go thinkin' again !

We've had the discussion before, but I bet not many pilots out there monitor 121.5 on a regular basis.

I'm fairly near the ADIZ here, and the President likes visiting Philly. Not to mention, I sometimes fly kinda close to the ADIZ or Camp David. I'm always listening to 121.5 on the #2 comm enroute.

 

[jdwatson]

They've been around for about a quarter of a century now.

Crikey, I'm getting old.

Given the ever-increasing number of folks I hear calling "entering downwind at Smalltown Muni" on 121.5, I'd say folks are getting the word on the importance of listening there.

I heard a lot of that when I was coming thru in August.

I'm fairly near the ADIZ here, and the President likes visiting Philly. Not to mention, I sometimes fly kinda close to the ADIZ or Camp David. I'm always listening to 121.5 on the #2 comm enroute.

It wasn't my habit until started following the forums.

 

[poadeleted20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Williams
I'm fairly near the ADIZ here, and the President likes visiting Philly. Not to mention, I sometimes fly kinda close to the ADIZ or Camp David. I'm always listening to 121.5 on the #2 comm enroute.

It wasn't my habit until started following the forums.

Well, then -- we're doing some good.

 

[Stache]

The FAA keeps tapes for at least two weeks now (disks). So I would request a copy of the tape and a written copy. You can contact the Regional Office in your area and give them the date and time frame with N-number. There will be a small charge, but it will be worth it.

Stache