TFR Question

ron22

ron22

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
1,446
Location
MN
Display Name
Display name:
Ron Hammer
This is from the TFR when Pres Obama was in town.

C. The following operations are not authorized within this TFR: flight training, practice instrument approaches, aerobatic flight, glider operations, parachute operations, ultralight, hang gliding, balloon operations, agriculture/crop dusting, animal population control flight operations, banner towing operations, model aircraft operations, model rocketry, and unmanned aircraft systems (UAS).
Click to expand...

So are they going to bust a 10 year old kid for flying his model plane or shotting off model rockets?
Really other than Pilots how many people even knew this was in effect.
 
ron22 said:
This is from the TFR when Pres Obama was in town.



So are they going to bust a 10 year old kid for flying his model plane or shotting off model rockets?
Really other than Pilots how many people even knew this was in effect.
Click to expand...
That has been part of the TFRs for a long while. Model rocketry has really been under attack, more so than GA. One cannot even transport model rocket engines across state boarders. At the local Tripoli rocket launches one who lives in Illinois has to buy their engines on site since the launch occurs just over the Wisconsin state line and yes, there are BATF agents that check.

Model rockets over 16oz or fly over 1000 feet AGL require a waiver from the FAA to fly and the FAA has been a royal PIA about issuing such waivers.
 
smigaldi said:
Model rockets over 16oz or fly over 1000 feet AGL require a waiver from the FAA to fly and the FAA has been a royal PIA about issuing such waivers.
Click to expand...

I know about the problems with larger rockets. The TFR does not say larger rockets that need the FAA waiver. It sayes model rockets. So technically I can not shoot a Estes Mosquito. For those that do not know the Mosquito is a very small rocket.
 
ron22 said:
I know about the problems with larger rockets. The TFR does not say larger rockets that need the FAA waiver. It sayes model rockets. So technically I can not shoot a Estes Mosquito. For those that do not know the Mosquito is a very small rocket.
Click to expand...
Those larger rockets are still classified model rockets. So they are all banned in a TFR. It is stupid, I agree, but no one ever accused these security issues of being well thought out.
 
smigaldi said:
Those larger rockets are still classified model rockets. So they are all banned in a TFR. It is stupid, I agree, but no one ever accused these security issues of being well thought out.
Click to expand...

If certain model rocket operations are not subject to FAA regulation through the rulemaking process, then how can they be legally prohibited in a temporary flight restriction established pursuant to 14 CFR?
 
alaskaflyer said:
If certain model rocket operations are not subject to FAA regulation through the rulemaking process, then how can they be legally prohibited in a temporary flight restriction established pursuant to 14 CFR?
Click to expand...
The gotcha is in FAR101.1

Sec. 101.1 Applicability.


(a) This part prescribes rules governing the operation in the United
States, of the following:
(1) Except as provided for in Sec. 101.7, any balloon that is
moored to the surface of the earth or an object thereon and that has a
diameter of more than 6 feet or a gas capacity of more than 115 cubic
feet.
(2) Except as provided for in Sec. 101.7, any kite that weighs more
than 5 pounds and is intended to be flown at the end of a rope or cable.
(3) Any unmanned rocket except:
(i) Aerial firework displays; and,
(ii) Model rockets:
(a) Using not more than four ounces of propellant;
(b) Using a slow-burning propellant;
(c) Made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic, containing no
substantial metal parts and weighing not more than 16 ounces, including
the propellant; and
(d) Operated in a manner that does not create a hazard to persons,
property, or other aircraft.
(4) Except as provided for in Sec. 101.7, any unmanned free balloon
that--
(i) Carries a payload package that weighs more than four pounds and
has a weight/size ratio of more than three ounces per square inch on any
surface of the package, determined by dividing the total weight in
ounces of the payload package by the area in square inches of its
smallest surface;
(ii) Carries a payload package that weighs more than six pounds;
(iii) Carries a payload, of two or more packages, that weighs more
than 12 pounds; or
(iv) Uses a rope or other device for suspension of the payload that
requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to separate the
suspended payload from the balloon.
(b) For the purposes of this part, a gyroglider attached to a
vehicle on the surface of the earth is considered to be a kite.
Click to expand...
The DHS considers any operation within 30NM of the POTUS a hazard.

BTW rockets are governed by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Code 1122 and 1127

The NFPA considers them High Power Rockets not Model Rocket if:

A rocket exceeds the definition of a model rocket under NFPA 1122 and becomes a high power rocket under NFPA 1127 if it:

  • Uses a motor with more than 160 Newton-seconds of total impulse (an"H" motor or larger) or multiple motors that all together exceed 320 Newton-seconds;
  • Uses a motor with more than 80 Newtons average thrust (see rocket motor coding);
  • Exceeds 62.5 grams of propellant;
  • Weighs more than 1,500 grams including motor(s); or
  • Includes any airframe parts of ductile metal.
It gets complicated so the powers that be ban them all.
 
Last edited:
smigaldi said:
Those larger rockets are still classified model rockets. So they are all banned in a TFR. It is stupid, I agree, but no one ever accused these security issues of being well thought out.
Click to expand...

If you are a protective detail agent, and you see a rapidly appearing smoke trail develop in the vicinity of your asset, should you be expected to see if it goes over 1000 ft before hitting the panic button?
 
smigaldi said:
The gotcha is in FAR101.1



The DHS considers any operation within 30NM of the POTUS a hazard.
Click to expand...

Hmm. So the FAA is asserting jurisdiction over any model rocket that is operated hazardously regardless of other criteria. So if I fire up my mosquito and accidentally bean my wife with it across the front yard, having never exceeded 5 agl, I am subject to a 91.13 violation?
 
Last edited:
alaskaflyer said:
Hmm. So the FAA is asserting jurisdiction over any model rocket that is operated hazardously regardless of other criteria. So if I fire up my mosquito and accidentally bean my wife with it across the front yard, having never exceeded 5 agl, I am guilty of a 91.13 violation?
Click to expand...
I do not think part 91 applies to model rockets at all. There might be something in part 101 though.
 
I feel a debt of gratitude to my govt. Finally do I feel I was born at the right time. I'm so happy I had my childhood long before all this current BS. Thanks, govt!
 
Richard said:
I feel a debt of gratitude to my govt. Finally do I feel I was born at the right time. I'm so happy I had my childhood long before all this current BS. Thanks, govt!
Click to expand...

Government always knows best... :fcross:

Why do you hate America? :confused: :tongue:
 
One hopes that sooner or later some pudgy 10-year old and his photogenic father are shooting off their Estes rocket just purchased at the toy store when they wind up on the cover of their local paper in handcuffs when they inadvertently and unexpectedly violate a TFR. Something to demonstrated to the public just how silly this all is.
 
My assumption is that if the BATFE no longer regulates it, you no longer have to worry about interstate transport. Local regs still would apply.

Just be advised that I haven't paid much attention to the whole HPR scene in a long time, and that I am no lawyer. your best bet would be to go to the next bong launch, and inquire there.
 
RE the National Association Of Rocketry's successful suit...
If every time a TFR was imposed lawsuits were filed in federal court by AOPA and EAA the TFR rules would be changed shortly after...
So far I have not been stopped from using the public airspace because some scumbag pol wants to fly near me and grub for money... The day it happens I will drop an AMU on a scumbag lawyer and file suit demanding that the court stay the TFR... At least I have some cajones that our prestigious organizations do not...

denny-o
 
Richard said:
I feel a debt of gratitude to my govt. Finally do I feel I was born at the right time. I'm so happy I had my childhood long before all this current BS. Thanks, govt!
Click to expand...

To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
 
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...
I cannot speak for all school districts but I know the ones around where I live expressly prohibited the launching of rockets on their property as does the park district.
 
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...

Yeah... I did a "project" in elementary school that involved videotaping me launching one of my rockets. Yes, this was on school grounds, using the school's video camera. I don't remember much else about it, except that the chute didn't deploy properly and I was kinda mad about that and the secretary who was standing next to the video camera said "Isn't he excited". I wasn't too happy when I heard that! :no:
 
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...

We used to do it on the local elementary school grounds when I grew up. I think we even had a model rocketry club in high school.... that was after the days of "better dead than Red".
 
Our entire class underwent a project where teams of two "designed" and contructed rockets and then fired them out behind the science classroom. Of course we used the standard available motors. This was in seventh or eight grade. Got into it for a while, but my interest faded fairly quickly.
 
Model rocketry reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg bit...

I saw a commercial for an above-ground pool, it was 30 seconds long. Because that's the maximum amount of time you can picture yourself having fun in an above-ground pool. If it was 31 seconds, the actor would say "The water is only up to here? What do I do now? Throw the ball back to Jimmy? Or put some goggles on and look at his feet?"
 
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...

I did a talk / lanch at my youngest's elementry school about 12 years ago, does that count?

Oh - the lawsuit with BATF was probably already in progress at that time.
 
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...

It was an annual event at our kids' middle school in San Jose. But, that was the early 1990s. No idea what the 'Chicken Littles' have done to that fun now.
 
vontresc said:
BTW, Setve have you petitioned the FAA to change the Favre waypoint name yet?
Click to expand...

I have not and I will not. I'm not one of those who consider him a traitor for signing with the Vikings.
 
Last edited:
alaskaflyer said:
To think that firing model rockets was actually a school-sponsored activity at one time! :thumbsup: Imagine a principal signing off on that now. Could it happen?
Click to expand...

Boy Scouts around here still do shot off rockets.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top