TFR in innner ring of STL Bravo?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
It appears Law Enforcement requested a TFR near St. Louis presumably to deal with the riots that have been occurring in response to the Police allegedly shooting an unarmed man.

I looked at the TFR and thought huh? Why even have the TFR? This thing is in the inner ring of the STL Bravo which goes from SFC to 8000. The TFR is 3 miles wide and goes to 3000.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html

Anyone who would go in there would need clearance so why even have the TFR? Are there additional measures that the TFR would have in addition to a Bravo Bust?
 
ALRIGHT! Send in the drones!! :yes:
 
AdamZ said:
It appears Law Enforcement requested a TFR near St. Louis presumably to deal with the riots that have been occurring in response to the Police allegedly shooting an unarmed man.
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I know it's a legal "cover your ass" term...but there is nothing alleged about it.
 
Well when police start shooting unarmed kids, the population does tend to get a wee bit p1ssed off.

Sometimes the people just feel the need to demonstrate who is really in charge.
 
It's always good to keep the news helicopters out when the beat-down starts.
 
AdamZ said:
It appears Law Enforcement requested a TFR near St. Louis presumably to deal with the riots that have been occurring in response to the Police allegedly shooting an unarmed man.

I looked at the TFR and thought huh? Why even have the TFR? This thing is in the inner ring of the STL Bravo which goes from SFC to 8000. The TFR is 3 miles wide and goes to 3000.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html

Anyone who would go in there would need clearance so why even have the TFR? Are there additional measures that the TFR would have in addition to a Bravo Bust?
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It may be there because the want everyone to understand where the hazard lies and understand they may take fire.
 
James331 said:
Well when police start shooting unarmed kids, the population does tend to get a wee bit p1ssed off.

Sometimes the people just feel the need to demonstrate who is really in charge.
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White folk don't. Cops can kill white kids, there will be a candlelight vigil and that's about it. White folk are rugged individualists pitted in competition for success, we don't watch out for each other, we just watch each other, suspiciously, jealously.
 
If it were a upper mid class white kid that police department would be turned inside out and the cop might be more worried about getting stabbed to death in prison vs shot to death on the street.
 
Maybe they put up a TFR because they're afraid of aircraft taking ground fire from the people demanding "peace and justice" while looting, rioting, burning down the town, shooting everything and everyone, and flipping over cars.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Maybe they put up a TFR because they're afraid of aircraft taking ground fire from the people demanding "peace and justice" while looting, rioting, burning down the town, shooting everything and everyone, and flipping over cars.
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That's my thoughts remembering the Rodney King riots, several aircraft out of LGB took some strays.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Maybe they put up a TFR because they're afraid of aircraft taking ground fire from the people demanding "peace and justice" while looting, rioting, burning down the town, shooting everything and everyone, and flipping over cars.
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The local NPR station this morning said, "The flight restrictions were put in place to "quote" 'provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities' and will prevent news helicopters from documenting police response to protestors.

I guess it's all in how you look at it.
 
Gee maybe it's because the police helicopters do not want to have to tangle with a sky full of idiot news media helicopters? Believe me, the local police do not have the authority to make the FAA put up a TFR in order to hide themselves from the news media. That's complete BS.
 
I don't think the OP is questioning the reason behind restricting aircraft over the area.

The question is: Why a TFR? Being in the surface area of the Class B, they could simply tell ATC "Don't clear anybody to go there" without posting a TFR for it.

EDIT TO ADD: My guess...somewhere in the binder for an Incident Commander there is an item that says "Call FAA at xxx-xxx-xxxx and ask for Temporary Flight Restrictions over the area of riot." Said IC knows precisely nothing about Class B airspace, and just follows the checklist and gets a TFR, even though it really could be accomplished through other means.
 
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Ferguson is right off the landing end of runways 30L and R. The TFR actually covers half of those runways. Even while the TFR has been in effect, they are allowing airliners to land on those runways. At least they were yesterday afternoon, and are currently this morning. I would suspect that St. Louis County requested the TFR so that if any rioting erupts that they can move their helicopters quickly without concern for landing aircraft. STL will probably move them over to runway 29 which of course, is a two mile extra taxi back to the terminal. For Southwest, that looks to be about 4 miles. I think it's more of a proactive move so that they can make a quick request to clear the area if necessary without having to go through red tape.

I just don't think it has anything to do with the prying eyes of the media. I hadn't seen any night time media helicopter broadcasts the first two nights, nor would the size of the TFR area be big enough to keep out the media's zoom lenses unless the activity were right in the middle of the TFR.
 
Matthew said:
The local NPR station this morning said, "The flight restrictions were put in place to "quote" 'provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities' and will prevent news helicopters from documenting police response to protestors.

I guess it's all in how you look at it.
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No worries, plenty of cameras on the ground. Likely hood of extreme force action showing up on You Tube and everywhere else: High. It's a more impressive shot to get strafed by a helicopter from the ground anyway.
 
Bob T said:
Ferguson is right off the landing end of runways 30L and R. The TFR actually covers half of those runways. Even while the TFR has been in effect, they are allowing airliners to land on those runways. At least they were yesterday afternoon, and are currently this morning. I would suspect that St. Louis County requested the TFR so that if any rioting erupts that they can move their helicopters quickly without concern for landing aircraft. STL will probably move them over to runway 29 which of course, is a two mile extra taxi back to the terminal. For Southwest, that looks to be about 4 miles. I think it's more of a proactive move so that they can make a quick request to clear the area if necessary without having to go through red tape.

I just don't think it has anything to do with the prying eyes of the media. I hadn't seen any night time media helicopter broadcasts the first two nights, nor would the size of the TFR area be big enough to keep out the media's zoom lenses unless the activity were right in the middle of the TFR.
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The media has become irrelevant in the age of raw data distributed on social media. They are no longer news, they are infotainment selling spin, just advertising is all. You Tube has become the new outlet, problem is, not everything there is honest either, so you have to disseminate for yourself.

I'm really surprised something like this hasn't happened long ago. It's not like this is anything new, Ferguson, Kinloch, that whole area up there over the airport, it's always been a rough neighborhood and overt racism has always been an accepted standard in St Louis.
 
Henning said:
No worries, plenty of cameras on the ground. Likely hood of extreme force action showing up on You Tube and everywhere else: High. It's a more impressive shot to get strafed by a helicopter from the ground anyway.
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But if the news guys could embed someone in a helicopter and roll cameras while the door gunner is strafing and yelling "GET SOME!" over and over... Think of the ratings!
 
Matthew said:
But if the news guys could embed someone in a helicopter and roll cameras while the door gunner is strafing and yelling "GET SOME!" over and over... Think of the ratings!
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They'll get that in the CG movie work....
 
Henning said:
I'm really surprised something like this hasn't happened long ago. It's not like this is anything new, Ferguson, Kinloch, that whole area up there over the airport, it's always been a rough neighborhood and overt racism has always been an accepted standard in St Louis.
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My wife was watching this on the news the other night, shook her head, and said, "That's the school district where I lived." She went to private school, though. My only experience in and around that area gave me the same impression you just mentioned "... and overt racism has always been an accepted standard in St Louis"
 
Henning said:
The media has become irrelevant in the age of raw data distributed on social media. They are no longer news, they are infotainment selling spin, just advertising is all. You Tube has become the new outlet, problem is, not everything there is honest either, so you have to disseminate for yourself.

I'm really surprised something like this hasn't happened long ago. It's not like this is anything new, Ferguson, Kinloch, that whole area up there over the airport, it's always been a rough neighborhood and overt racism has always been an accepted standard in St Louis.
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I understand your point, but I think it's a stretch to say that the media, outside of social media, is irrelevant. I did tell my wife Sunday morning before the St. Louis County press conference that they waited overnight to make sure that no videos of the Michael Brown shooting popping up on Youtube before they committed to a narrative. But that doesn't mean that local news is irrelevant. I would agree that most of the network and cable news is irrelevant to local interests, and sensationalized for commercial gain. But I would also guess that the vast majority of people over 45 or so turn on the local news before going to youtube or social media to find news about their local area on a breaking story. They might initially hear of something through Facebook or something, but then they'll turn on their local news. My wife constantly goes through Facebook on her phone, and she'll come across information that is usually a link some type of professional media outlet. I did go to youtube myself the first day to check for raw video of the shooting, but there was none. In addition, local news was showing video from Youtube of the QuickTrip looting, but I was watching Zisser Tire and Auto getting looted live on the news before anything would have been available on social media. I think they kind of go hand in hand since the news media has embraced social media in the last couple of years.
 
So how many news choppers are there in STL these days? There's only one in Denver. All the stations lease time on it. They ran out of money to operate their own a long time ago.

That said we then know it isn't about hoards of news choppers. It's just a now commonplace use of a Federal restriction that's wholly unnecessary.

Another sign of the "there has to be a rule for everything" society that can't get over it.
 
Henning said:
That's my thoughts remembering the Rodney King riots, several aircraft out of LGB took some strays.
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Watts is on the final approach to LAX. I was with an airline that flew only West Coast and can remember that there were NOT strays but direct hits during the Watts riots of the '60s. Thank God they targeted the rotating beacon on the belly rather than putting a hot round into the wing tanks.

Jim
 
denverpilot said:
So how many news choppers are there in STL these days? There's only one in Denver. All the stations lease time on it. They ran out of money to operate their own a long time ago.

That said we then know it isn't about hoards of news choppers. It's just a now commonplace use of a Federal restriction that's wholly unnecessary.

Another sign of the "there has to be a rule for everything" society that can't get over it.
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Good point. In KC we have one news chopper. Since he's the only one, and flies in KC Bravo all the time, the controllers know him pretty well. It would be very simple to say, "Hey, Chopper9, we're gonna need you to stay clear of the airspace over xxx for a while."
 
Matthew said:
Good point. In KC we have one news chopper. Since he's the only one, and flies in KC Bravo all the time, the controllers know him pretty well. It would be very simple to say, "Hey, Chopper9, we're gonna need you to stay clear of the airspace over xxx for a while."
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Most stations don't have a chopper because it's cheaper to rent one when needed. Webcams have replaced the 'eye in the sky' daily traffic reports for the most part, so the need now for a chopper is less. However, when there is a call for one, they'll have one up with a crew in pretty short order.
 
Henning said:
Most stations don't have a chopper because it's cheaper to rent one when needed. Webcams have replaced the 'eye in the sky' daily traffic reports for the most part, so the need now for a chopper is less. However, when there is a call for one, they'll have one up with a crew in pretty short order.
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Even the KC guy, who does a lot of traffic, takes the day off from flying once in a while and does his traffic using the webcams.
 
I still remember when the traffic reporters ran around Denver in Skylanes along with the helis. TRACON issued them "Skywatch" numbered callsigns and discreet transponder codes.

All a long dead era at this point.

There was a SoCal traffic reporter who used a Bonanza.
 
Webcams won't get this footage:

http://youtu.be/GS_XJM30dyM

A guy set his house on fire, then shot at arriving FD and paramedics, wounding some. Then his house blew up from the explosives he stored in the basement. It's been 10 years ago already.
 
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AdamZ said:
Anyone who would go in there would need clearance so why even have the TFR? Are there additional measures that the TFR would have in addition to a Bravo Bust?
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Yes. A Bravo bust is a civil violation that can result in an FAA enforcement action. A TFR incursion can be a criminal offense handled by the TSA, depending on the nature of the TFR.
 
Matthew said:
Webcams won't get this footage:



http://youtu.be/GS_XJM30dyM



A guy set his house on fire, then shot at arriving FD and paramedics, wounding some. Then his house blew up from the explosives he stored in the basement. It's been 10 years ago already.
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I always thought the footage of the news helicopter putting a skid on the hood of the pickup truck with a hidden armed robber inside, after flying under a set of power lines to get there in the 80s was the best.

Darn those newsies. If it weren't for them the guy would've gotten away. Wouldn't want that. ;)
 
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