Teterboro oddities

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pstan

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Stan
I'm looking at the KTEB Teterboro NJ Jepp plates for the airport diagram and take off info pages. Runway 01/19 is 7000 feet long with a displaced threshhold at both ends. For landing RW 19, the landing distance for "landing beyond the threshhold" is 6230, less than the total 7000 foot RW length as it is displaced. For landing RW 01, the landing distance for "landing beyond the threshhold" is 5319 feet, again as it is displaced, however the note "last 910 feet unavail for landing distance computations" is added.

1. Anyone know why this 910 feet is "unavail for landing distance computations" if landing RW 01, but not 19? It doesn't appear to be the length of the displaced threshhold for landing 19.

2. I was asked how far is the threshhold displaced for landing RW 01? I used some mental arithemtic gymnastics and came up with 769 feet. Is there an easier way to determine this?
 
For 1) it has to do with RESA -

Aviation regulatory agencies such as the FAA establish criteria for establishing protected areas surrounding and extending along the arrival and departure paths to runways (see FAA Advisory Circular AC 150/5300-13 Airport Design). These areas seek to ensure the safe operation should an aircraft depart the paved surface of the runway.

Current FAA policy limits or eliminates waivers for these protected areas. Most specifically, the―Runway End Safety Area(RESA) is being implemented at numerous runways/airports. The RESA is defined as an area beyond the end of the runway, 1000 feet in length, which is able to support the aircraft, in dry conditions, in the event of an aborted takeoff.

Because some runways do not have 1000 feet of terrain available beyond the end of the current runway pavement, the RESA may impose on the current runway pavement available. In these cases, the FAA allows an airport to determine declared distances for a runway to accommodate the RESA. These declared distances are published in the Airport Facilities Directory. They are NOT published on the Jeppesen or NOAA instrument approach charts. In addition, most FMS databases do not consider declared distances.

These declared distances are defined as follows:
Takeoff Run Available (TORA)—The length of runway declared available and suitable for the ground run of an airplane take-off.
Accelerate-Stop Distance Available (ASDA)—The runway length plus stopway length declared available and suitable for the acceleration and deceleration of an airplane aborting a takeoff.
Takeoff Distance Available (TODA) – The length of the take-off run available plus the length of the clearway, if provided.
Landing Distance Available (LDA) – The length of runway which is declared available and suitable for the ground run of an airplane landing.
When a RESA uses a portion of the existing runway pavement, the Accelerate-Stop Distance Available (ASDA) is less than the Takeoff Run (TORA) or Takeoff Distance Available (TODA).

If you want more reading go hunt for the CAA CAP168. It does a good job of explaining it. Short version is, if there isn't adequate room beyond the end of the runway for the RESA, LDA is reduced by the amount necessary to give you your RESA. KADS has the same problem.

2) for displaced threshold, any number of places including Airnav which says it is 771ft on RY01.
 
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How does an EMAS figure into the RESA calculations (really, how many acronyms can one use in a short sentence).
 
weilke said:
How does an EMAS figure into the RESA calculations (really, how many acronyms can one use in a short sentence).
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Check this AC. It's got a section on RSA and EMAS and how they relate.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/150_5300_13A.pdf

I guess RSA is the FAA abbreviation...

g. EMAS. A standard EMAS provides a level of safety that is equivalent to an RSA built to the dimensional standards in Table 3-8. Hence, an RSA using a “standard EMAS” installation is considered to be a “standard RSA.” The term “standard RSA” was previously used to describe an RSA meeting full dimensional standards. Such an RSA is now referred to as a “full dimension RSA.”
(1) An EMAS is designed to stop an overrunning aircraft by exerting
predictable deceleration forces on its landing gear as the EMAS material deforms. EMAS performance is dependent on aircraft weight, landing gear configuration, tire pressure, and entry speed.
(2) A “standard EMAS” installation will stop the design aircraft exiting the runway at 70 knots within an area that also provides the required protection for undershoots in the opposite direction, as specified in Table 3-8 (dimension P). AC 150/5220-22 provides guidance on planning, design, installation and maintenance of EMAS in RSAs.
(3) Refer to Order 5200.8 for the evaluation process and Order 5200.9 to determine the best practical and financially feasible alternative.

More explanation from our Canadian friends, which says EMAS is an acceptable alternative to RESA.
http://www.psmi.ca/docs/articles/RESA_Explained.pdf
 
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Never thought to land there as I heard they rape the owners of piston singles.
 
steingar said:
Never thought to land there as I heard they rape the owners of piston singles.
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It wasn't too bad. Stayed at Meridian, the landing fee was waived because I believe they bill you by every thousand pounds, and we were tipping the scales at 2500 so they didn't bill us. Avgas on the other hand was about $8 a gallon if I recall correctly. We were the smallest airplane on the ramp by about 10000 pounds. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. 40 minute bus ride to downtown, and the staff at Meridian was great.

zflVM.jpg
 
EdFred said:
Rape would probably be more enjoyable.
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I fail to see the equivalency between paying a ramp-fee or overpriced fuel and someone being sexually violated.
 
weilke said:
I fail to see the equivalency between paying a ramp-fee or overpriced fuel and someone being sexually violated.
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Figure of speech, hope I'm forgiven. I've heard really horrid things about TEB though.
 
steingar said:
Figure of speech, hope I'm forgiven. I've heard really horrid things about TEB though.
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Did my PPL there in '98 (Millonair Flight School). Glad I learned in such busy airspace, although we went to Morristown (MMU) and Caldwell (CDW) to practice T&Gs. TEB was just too busy with jets.

I wanted to visit last year, but was scared away by the Ramp and Port Authority fees ~$90. No thanks, Caldwell is just a short hop west. Landing fee was $5 I think.
 
Arbiter419 said:
It wasn't too bad. Stayed at Meridian, the landing fee was waived because I believe they bill you by every thousand pounds, and we were tipping the scales at 2500 so they didn't bill us. Avgas on the other hand was about $8 a gallon if I recall correctly.
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Are you sure they waived the landing, and not the ramp fee?

redtail said:
I wanted to visit last year, but was scared away by the Ramp and Port Authority fees ~$90. No thanks, Caldwell is just a short hop west. Landing fee was $5 I think.
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From the Port Authority:

TETERBORO AIRPORT - SCHEDULE OF CHARGES - For The Use Of The Public Landing Area
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[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The operator of any aircraft using the public landing area at Teterboro Airport, except pursuant to the terms of a lease or other agreement with The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey or the Airport Operator, shall pay for such use at the rate set forth herein. [/FONT]
[/FONT]I. Public Landing Area Charges (Effective 07/01/09).
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. For each takeoff of aircraft not exceeding 6,000 pounds of maximum gross weight for takeoff ........$17.00. [/FONT][/FONT]
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www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf/scheduleofcharges-ewr.pdf

It seems as though Meridian may be more reasonably priced for a TEB visit.
 
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Brad Z said:
Are you sure they waived the landing, and not the ramp fee?



From the Port Authority:



www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf/scheduleofcharges-ewr.pdf

It seems as though Meridian may be more reasonably priced for a TEB visit.
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Thanks.

This was my first inquiry about landing at TEB in years. Last time I was there was in 2001 before all of the flight schools left.

I'll have to check into it again, but when I called the FBO, they said something about a "Security Fee" in addition to Landing and Ramp fees!

I even emailed the airport manager and inquired about a possible break for a fellow employee (27 year PA electrician/controller) and was told...negatory:no:

No sweat though, I don't really need to go there. Just thought it would be cool to visit the airport again.

Besides, I enjoyed landing at CDW again after so many years.
 
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Brad Z said:
It seems as though Meridian may be more reasonably priced for a TEB visit.
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Just spoke to a young lady at Meridian. She said they have a $50 ramp fee (waived with 15gals of fuel) + $17 landing fee. I rent a Skyhawk:rolleyes:

No thanks. I don't need 15gals for a short hop from Long Island and a $17 touch & go just isn't worth it:mad2:

It's definitely a different place than it was when I trained there:eek:
Oh well, when I go pickup my friend, I'll tell her to meet me at Caldwell or Morristown:)
 
redtail said:
Just spoke to a young lady at Meridian. She said they have a $50 ramp fee (waived with 15gals of fuel) + $17 landing fee. I rent a Skyhawk:rolleyes:
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It is $67 for a 1 day stay.

Lets say you have to go to 42nd St in Manhattan, it is a 21mile cab ride from CDW vs. 12 miles cab or a bus from TEB. Yeah, a lot of money for a touch+go, if you have to go to Manhattan, the difference in ramp fee is made up by the shorter drive and lower transit cost.
I have family in Secaucus, can almost walk there from TEB.
 
weilke said:
It is $67 for a 1 day stay.

Lets say you have to go to 42nd St in Manhattan, it is a 21mile cab ride from CDW vs. 12 miles cab or a bus from TEB. Yeah, a lot of money for a touch+go, if you have to go to Manhattan, the difference in ramp fee is made up by the shorter drive and lower transit cost.
I have family in Secaucus, can almost walk there from TEB.
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True.

I'm sure it's worth it to someone coming to the area from a distance but not for a guy that flies out of Farmingdale, Long Island (FRG), lives in the area and drives through Manhattan everyday on my way to work:lol:.

When I go the to city for shows or shopping with the wife, we usually hop on the Long Island Rail Road:)
 
redtail said:
When I go the to city for shows or shopping with the wife, we usually hop on the Long Island Rail Road:)
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I fondly remember the conductors with the funny hats. Except that I lived in Brooklyn and only used the LIRR to get to the beach.
 
weilke said:
I fondly remember the conductors with the funny hats. Except that I lived in Brooklyn and only used the LIRR to get to the beach.
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Yeah you like those hats huh:lol:.

My son(7) has a Model LIRR train set and this kid loves trains as much as I love planes:D

He knows EVERY stop and branch line! When we go to Penn Station, he grabs a copy of the schedules.....this kid studies train routes and timelines:lol:
 
redtail said:
Yeah you like those hats huh:lol:.

My son(7) has a Model LIRR train set and this kid loves trains as much as I love planes:D

He knows EVERY stop and branch line! When we go to Penn Station, he grabs a copy of the schedules.....this kid studies train routes and timelines:lol:
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I think we need to hook him up with my 7 year old. He can tell you every interstate, exit, toll, bridge or tunnel between Richmond and NYC.

Having kids is fun, and sometimes a bit spooky.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37f-_XrMJ0
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Here' s the backstory to the song.

In January 1954, Godfrey buzzed the control tower of Teterboro Airport in his Douglas DC-3. His license was suspended for six months. Godfrey claimed the windy conditions that day required him to turn immediately after takeoff, but in fact he was peeved with the tower because they wouldn't give him the runway he asked for. Unrepentant, this song, written and sung by Godfrey, followed.
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http://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/03/buzzing-teterboro-tower.html

Teterboro can be a mess, especially during rush hour or bad weather. However, as far as price is concerned it isn't nearly as bad as some other airports.
 
Thanks Speed for your insights. I was away for awhile and then it took me some time to assimilate what you wrote. I apologize for starting a thread, and then nearly abondoning it.

Re: Teterboro oddities
For 1) it has to do with RESA -

Aviation regulatory agencies such as the FAA establish criteria for establishing protected areas surrounding and extending along the arrival and departure paths to runways (see FAA Advisory Circular AC 150/5300-13 Airport Design). These areas seek to ensure the safe operation should an aircraft depart the paved surface of the runway.

Current FAA policy limits or eliminates waivers for these protected areas. Most specifically, the―Runway End Safety Area(RESA) is being implemented at numerous runways/airports. The RESA is defined as an area beyond the end of the runway, 1000 feet in length, which is able to support the aircraft, in dry conditions, in the event of an aborted takeoff.

Because some runways do not have 1000 feet of terrain available beyond the end of the current runway pavement, the RESA may impose on the current runway pavement available. In these cases, the FAA allows an airport to determine declared distances for a runway to accommodate the RESA. These declared distances are published in the Airport Facilities Directory. They are NOT published on the Jeppesen or NOAA instrument approach charts. In addition, most FMS databases do not consider declared distances.

These declared distances are defined as follows:
Takeoff Run Available (TORA)—The length of runway declared available and suitable for the ground run of an airplane take-off.
Accelerate-Stop Distance Available (ASDA)—The runway length plus stopway length declared available and suitable for the acceleration and deceleration of an airplane aborting a takeoff.
Takeoff Distance Available (TODA) – The length of the take-off run available plus the length of the clearway, if provided.
Landing Distance Available (LDA) – The length of runway which is declared available and suitable for the ground run of an airplane landing.
When a RESA uses a portion of the existing runway pavement, the Accelerate-Stop Distance Available (ASDA) is less than the Takeoff Run (TORA) or Takeoff Distance Available (TODA).

If you want more reading go hunt for the CAA CAP168. It does a good job of explaining it. Short version is, if there isn't adequate room beyond the end of the runway for the RESA, LDA is reduced by the amount necessary to give you your RESA. KADS has the same problem.

2) for displaced threshold, any number of places including Airnav which says it is 771ft on RY01.
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1. If one looks at various runways at LGA La Guardia, from what I see in my Jepp diagrams there is no safety area at the end, just water. And no emas. So how does this meet the 1000 foot RESA requirement?

2. Secondly, Speed, you mention specifically that the RESA is for aborted takeoffs. At TEB, the jepp plates I have mention no ASDA, yet the AFD shows ASDA as 6090, so clearly this is using the 910 feet mentioned for landing distance. So I take this to mean that the full 7000 feet is not avail for take off on runway 01, yet the Jepp plate does not show this. Specifically, the only note on the jepp plate says that the last 910 feet is unavailable for "landing distance computations". Nothing about take off abort. So should I not trust the Jepp info? Anyone?
 
pstan said:
2. Secondly, Speed, you mention specifically that the RESA is for aborted takeoffs. At TEB, the jepp plates I have mention no ASDA, yet the AFD shows ASDA as 6090, so clearly this is using the 910 feet mentioned for landing distance. So I take this to mean that the full 7000 feet is not avail for take off on runway 01, yet the Jepp plate does not show this. Specifically, the only note on the jepp plate says that the last 910 feet is unavailable for "landing distance computations". Nothing about take off abort. So should I not trust the Jepp info? Anyone?
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Look at the Jeppesen 10-9A airport page under "Additional Runway Information". "Landing beyond threshold" for runway 1 is listed as 5319' which takes into account the 7000' runway minus the 771' displaced threshold and the 910' unusable for landing computations.

skitch.png


Edit: Nevermind, I see your question was really about the takeoff computations. Do you actually have a way to determine your accelerate-stop distance? When we compute takeoff distance using the manufacturer's information it's the longest of accelerate-stop, accelerate-go or 115% the two engine takeoff distance. There's no way to know which one of these is the limiting factor. For whatever reason I always assumed that accelerate-go was usually more limiting but I have no way of proving that.
 
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Do you actually have a way to determine your accelerate-stop distance? When we compute takeoff distance using the manufacturer's information it's the longest of accelerate-stop, accelerate-go or 115% the two engine takeoff distance. There's no way to know which one of these is the limiting factor. For whatever reason I always assumed that accelerate-go was usually more limiting but I have no way of proving that.
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Most corporates determine a V1 so that accelerate stop is equal to accelerate go, called a balanced field. With some manufacturers, there are charts to allow an increased V1, so that now accelerate stop is greater than accelerate go. In this case, the field in "unbalanced". So in answer to your questions, yes, I have a way to determine accelerate stop distance. And there can be a way to determine the limiting distance of the 3 you mentioned, although, again, only some manufacturers give this info. And accelerate go will be more limiting in the case when the computed V1 speed is below the balanced field V1 speed.

However, this has nothing to do with the Jepp info vs AFD info. Back to the thread...

... the Jepp info shows 7000 feet as the runway available for takeoff. Yet the AFD says 6090.......there really shouldn't be any disagreement here (my thoughts).
 
pstan said:
And there can be a way to determine the limiting distance of the 3 you mentioned, although, again, only some manufacturers give this info.
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Ours doesn't, which I guess is why I never thought about it much.

Takeoff Field Length:

The Takeoff Field Length given for each combination of gross weight, ambient temperature, altitude, wind and runway gradients is the greatest of the following:
a. 115 percent of the two-engine horizontal takeoff distance from start to a height of 35 feet above runway surface.
b. Accelerate-stop distance. Wet or dry runway, as appropriate.
c. The engine-out accelerate-go distance to 35 feet for dry runways and 15 feet for wet runways.

No specific identification is made in CPCalc as to which of these distances governs a specific case.
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As far as your question about the Jepps goes, I don't have an answer for it.
 
pstan said:
Thanks Speed for your insights. I was away for awhile and then it took me some time to assimilate what you wrote. I apologize for starting a thread, and then nearly abondoning it.

1. If one looks at various runways at LGA La Guardia, from what I see in my Jepp diagrams there is no safety area at the end, just water. And no emas. So how does this meet the 1000 foot RESA requirement?

2. Secondly, Speed, you mention specifically that the RESA is for aborted takeoffs. At TEB, the jepp plates I have mention no ASDA, yet the AFD shows ASDA as 6090, so clearly this is using the 910 feet mentioned for landing distance. So I take this to mean that the full 7000 feet is not avail for take off on runway 01, yet the Jepp plate does not show this. Specifically, the only note on the jepp plate says that the last 910 feet is unavailable for "landing distance computations". Nothing about take off abort. So should I not trust the Jepp info? Anyone?
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1) I don't know the answer for that, but two of the runways do have EMAS at LGA. LGA has a Request for bids out for constructing decks and EMAS on the other two, so perhaps they have an exemption until it gets built. It also looks like it is in their capital improvement plan (amazing what you can find with google).
RW 4 & 31 RSA PLANNING, ENG. & ENV. - PFC 24,000 24,000 (Start Date) Jan-12 (Completion Date) Dec-13
RW 31 RSA CONSTRUCTION - PFC 74,500 74,500 Jan-12 Jan-14
RW 4 RSA CONSTRUCTION - PFC 74,500 74,500 Jan-13 Jan-15

2) not sure... I always try to cross-reference the AFD, as the (shortened) LDA doesn't always reflect correctly in our FMS either, KADS being one example.
 
pstan said:
... the Jepp info shows 7000 feet as the runway available for takeoff. Yet the AFD says 6090.......there really shouldn't be any disagreement here (my thoughts).
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I think this is a potential gotcha. Again KADS - we've had crews depart out of there with full fuel not realizing the ASDA off RY15 in the AFD is shorter than what is depicted on the Jepp chart or in our FMS.
 
This is a little dated, but we all know how quick the FAA implements changes... shows this has been a problem for awhile though. Bold emphasis mine.

GOVERNMENT/INDUSTRY AERONAUTICAL CHARTING FORUM
06-01
April 18-20, 2006
Recommendation Document
Subject: Declared Distance Information on Airport Charts
Background/Discussion: Declared distances are frequently used by Airport Authorities to comply with FAA requirements for Runway Safety Areas specified in AC 150/5300-13, Appendix 14.

A runway’s declared Accelerate-Stop Distance Available (ASDA), Takeoff Run Available (TORA) and/or Takeoff Distance Available (TODA) may each be shorter than the runway length depicted on an Airport Diagram.

A runway’s declared Landing Distance Available (LDA) may be shorter than the length of the surface beyond the Landing Threshold Point. In order to realize the intended safety benefits of declared distances, the information must be readily available to pilots on airport diagrams and in databases used by FMS.

Currently, neither airport charts nor ARINC 424 databases consistently make available declared runway distance information. Because pilots rely on distances presented on airport diagrams and in FMS databases to calculate takeoff and landing performances, an absence of declared distance information may cause pilots to inadvertently exceed the maximum permitted takeoff and/or landing weight, thus nullifying the potential safety benefit of the declared distance.
Recommendations:
• Airport Diagrams should provide all declared distance information – TODA, TORA, ASDA, and LDA – whenever these differ from the total runway length.
• When ARINC 424 data are used to calculate takeoff and landing performance, those data should include declared ASDA, TODA, TORA and LDA. Until pertinent 424 data can be provided by industry, flight crew operating guidance for FMS should require manual insertion of the most restrictive distance in accordance with the aircraft certification basis and operating rules.
 
Everskyward said:
What determines whether or not an airport needs to calculate these numbers? Looking at Santa Monica, KSMO, it has no declared distances. However there is no 1000' buffer at either end of the pavement.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_193_10JAN2013.pdf
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From the AIM - looks like only CFR 139 airports have to declare distances if I'm reading it right.

All 14 CFR Part 139 airports report declared
distances for each runway. Other airports may also
report declared distances for a runway if necessary
to meet runway design standards or to indicate the
presence of a clearway or stopway. Where reported,
declared distances for each runway end are
published in the Airport/Facility Directory (A/FD).
For runways without published declared distances,
the declared distances may be assumed to be equal to
the physical length of the runway unless there is a
displaced landing threshold, in which case the
Landing Distance Available (LDA) is shortened by
the amount of the threshold displacement.
 
Speed said:
From the AIM - looks like only CFR 139 airports have to declare distances if I'm reading it right.

All 14 CFR Part 139 airports report declared
distances for each runway. Other airports may also
report declared distances for a runway if necessary
to meet runway design standards or to indicate the
presence of a clearway or stopway. Where reported,
declared distances for each runway end are
published in the Airport/Facility Directory (A/FD).
For runways without published declared distances,
the declared distances may be assumed to be equal to
the physical length of the runway unless there is a
displaced landing threshold, in which case the
Landing Distance Available (LDA) is shortened by
the amount of the threshold displacement.
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I think you are right about that. However I can see that it would cause an inconsistency when comparing the way you calculate takeoff distance at an airport with declared distances compared with one which doesn't. Going back to runway 1 at Teterboro. You actually do have 7000 feet of pavement on which to accelerate and stop. You just don't have that extra 1000 foot buffer. Taking the same airplane to Santa Monica you can use the whole length of the pavement for calculations even though it wouldn't leave you a 1000 foot buffer.
 
Everskyward said:
I think you are right about that. However I can see that it would cause an inconsistency when comparing the way you calculate takeoff distance at an airport with declared distances compared with one which doesn't. Going back to runway 1 at Teterboro. You actually do have 7000 feet of pavement on which to accelerate and stop. You just don't have that extra 1000 foot buffer. Taking the same airplane to Santa Monica you can use the whole length of the pavement for calculations even though it wouldn't leave you a 1000 foot buffer.
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I guess we only have to be extra safe at some airports... :dunno:
 
Speed said:
I guess we only have to be extra safe at some airports... :dunno:
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Seems like it. :)

Then there's the problem we would have since we can't calculate accelerate-stop distance, only "takeoff field length" as described in a previous post.
 
Then there's the problem we would have since we can't calculate accelerate-stop distance, only "takeoff field length" as described in a previous post.
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I don't see why its a "problem". The manufacturers give us a take off distance, or "takeoff field length" and all we have to do is ensure it is less than or equal to the available runway length. Should we have an engine failure at V1, the aircraft is certified to either stop, or go, from that pre determined V1 speed. In a balanced field condition, both cases are the restricting case (if the 115% rule is not infringed on). However, as you have mentioned Everskyward, the pilot may be unaware that one of the cases is actually the restricting case, depending on the data given by the manufacturer.

thanks Speed, I think you gave me the answers I was looking for. Really appreciate your contribution and work you put into it

Stan
 
pstan said:
However, as you have mentioned Everskyward, the pilot may be unaware that one of the cases is actually the restricting case, depending on the data given by the manufacturer.
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The problem as I see it is that in the declared distances they give both TODA and ASDA. One could be longer than the other. If you don't know which one is limiting then, by default you would need to use the shorter one. But in that case, you could be leaving some weight behind that you didn't need to leave behind.
 
Yes I see what you mean. If you don't have those ASD charts, then you can't reduce the V1 to meet the shorter ASDA.
 
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