Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by flyingcheesehead, Nov 9, 2018.

  1. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nothing? Not at all? Not a single aspect?

    Aha! That's why you didn't like it! ;)

    IMO, the 6-seater is better. Not only do you have space between the seats in the middle row, but the middle row seats can go way forward and make it very easy for full-sized adults to get into the rear. They even put the switches to put the middle seats forward on the outside (door side) of the seat backs at about shoulder level (of a seated person) so you don't have to bend over to move the seats forward to get in the back.

    FWIW, the weekend I had rented the X, my parents rode in the third row, and had no complaints. They're 5'11" and 5'8".

    For some reason, they didn't do this with the 7-seater. Not sure why. :dunno:

    Wow... Those are huge positives for me, and I think for most people. One of the reasons the 3 and S both come with all-glass roofs now is the huge positive reaction that Tesla got from people over the X's windshield. But, since you were in the back, I can see how you might not have seen that.

    Not true at all! The falcon wing doors are designed to take as little room as possible to the side of the car when opening up. This guy shows that a little over a foot between the cars is enough to open them (jump to 3:08):


    True! I did that once - We had to go to a rehearsal dinner in a very crowded downtown spot, and the only parking spot I could find was in a municipal lot, and it was only open because the cars parked on either side were close to or over the line and nobody could get in. So, I pulled up next to it, said "everybody out!" and hit a button and the car pulled into the space perfectly. :)
     
  2. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Pattern Altitude

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    I'm sure there were some cool features that I didn't get around to seeing, but overall, nothing that impressed me. Especially, not enough to want one!!

    You took your parents in the third row with the second row removed? It looked tiny back there! No way I could spend a lot of time there. Honestly, I was in the second row for slightly more than an hour and I hated it!

    The windshield was something I didn't like, but I don't like the big moonroofs on the F-150s either, so personal preference.

    I stand corrected on the doors. The owner mentioned it and let me out before he pulled into a parking lot.

    Honestly, the worst part for me was the road noise.
     
  3. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

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    I will admit I was surprised at the road noise. Until I figured out that I'm hearing it because it's not covered by the sound of the engine like every other car I'd driven. Doesn't matter to me if you like the cars or not, but I would offer that many people who DRIVE them end up really liking them. I can speak for passengers, since I got a very short ride (maybe 3 minutes?) in a Model S a few years before buying my Model 3. And the first Model 3 I saw in person was mine when I was picking it up. But it's definitely the most fun car I've driven.
     
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  4. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Pattern Altitude

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    A lot of people love them. I'm not in the market for a 6-7 passenger car, much less any car. I drive a Silverado because I need a truck. I think the concept is a good one, hopefully they continue to grow... because it helps my business!
     
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  5. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

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    https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-pickup-truck/ ;)
     
  6. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Where did I say the second row was removed? :dunno:

    I took my parents with the second row present, but I had the six-seat model so the second row was two separate seats similar to the front seats. My wife and son were in the middle row seats.

    I think that I likely *would* have heard some complaints about the rear seat from my parents if we were on a long road trip, but I don't think we drove more than maybe 20-25 minutes at a time that way.

    I think Marty made a good observation above. One of the things I wasn't really aware of before I drove an electric car was how much noise in any car is attributable to both tire/road noise and wind noise. For both of those, the faster you go, the noisier it is.

    Some of the tire companies are engineering EV-specific tires now, both to cut down on road noise as well as absorb all the additional torque without too much wear. I'd like to try some at some point.

    It may be that the one you were in had the 21-inch wheels, which I think are noisier than the standard 19" ones (well, not the wheels, but the short-sidewall tires that go with them). A lot of people seem to like the look of them, but I don't know why you would exchange ride quality and noise for the way something looks on the outside of the car. :dunno:
     
  7. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Pattern Altitude

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    LOL, I read what you said completely wrong. You said, "the middle row seats can go way forward' and I read it as "the middle row seats can go away"! Made me think of a 210 with one of the middle seats removed and me riding in the back row all stretched out.
     
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  8. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    We would do that with the Astro and Safari vans... that was riding in style.
     
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  9. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I hear ya, for now I need a truck. But I am not against any electric car. Just right now there is not an electric vehicle that meets my needs. I need to pull a trailer that may be up to 14,000 pounds a few times a month. Having an electric vehicle that cost the same as a diesel pickup and can't carry near the same load isn't cost effective to me.

    Another problem is the distance between charging stations right now. (in the southwest) But even that is changing.

    But as I get older, my missions will change. There may be an electric car in my future. Hopefully by then they will be refined and cheaper, er, I mean less expensive.... And by then maybe when a recharge is needed all a person will have to do is plug the charging plug into the 12v cigarette lighter.....:lol::lol:

    Still waiting for a usable and affordable flying car.....
     
  10. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    And today's kids are missing out of the right of passage that was the looooong road trip in the very back of the Pontiac Grand Safari Station Wagon
     
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  11. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

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    For me it was Connecticut to Colorado and back in an Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser! :)
     
  12. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I have fond memories of riding in the rear-facing seat in the back of my parents' Volvo station wagon.

    A rear-facing child seat is an option on the Model S...
     
  13. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Your friend must not have understood the point of a vintage Corvette. The appearance, nostalgia, and sound is what driving a classic car of any sort is all about. If you want a daily driver, or modern sports car acceleration/handling, a C2/C3 Corvette isn't going to do it without a metric ton of engine/suspension mods.
     
  14. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I'll admit..... I'm in lust for a Model 3
     
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  15. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wasn’t a Tesla fan and in all honesty said I’d buy one. My Volt was 8 years old and I wanted something I’d never have to get gas in so I was going to get the Bolt.

    My wife booked me a reservation to pickup a Model 3 for a demo drive where you take it home for the day and bring it back the next day. I went in to pick it up and noticed the Model X and started looking at it. I decided to take that one home and when I went back the next day I ordered one.

    My wife has a new Lexus RX F Sport and loves her car. She took my X today because she needed more seats for a field trip. Now she wants one.

    I blindly hated Tesla until I experienced one. Now I get it.
     
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  16. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    How does it compare with conventional cars in terms of insurance?

    Rich
     
  17. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No difference. For 250/500 coverage and $500 deductibles I pay just under $4,000 a year for the Tesla Model X, 2019 Lexus RX450F and a 2008 Jeep Wrangler with a $250,000 umbrella policy.
     
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  18. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Woah - do you have someone under 25 on the policy? I pay $2600 per year for a Tesla Model 3, Tesla Model S and Ford F350 Platinum with a $500k CSL.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  19. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’m in Southern California, illegal alien driving heaven. Our rates are high here compared to other states.
     
  20. masloki

    masloki Line Up and Wait

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  21. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Add me to ranks of the curious on how they are going to take on the light truck market currently dominated by the F150
     
  22. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Especially since there's been some really creative things done with the niche electric pickups that have been revealed already, and Musk himself said that the pickup is the product he's most excited about and called it "really next level".

    I'm expecting that there'll be a "normal" (maybe 100kWh) battery for the type of people who use a pickup for commuting and occasional trips to the local big box home store for mulch, and an optional outsize battery (maybe 200kWh) for people who work in construction or need to tow. I also expect there'll be an optional sizable power inverter to allow the construction folks to power tools from the big battery. Finally, I'm expecting that there will be some ability to load cargo from the box, up through the passenger compartment and into the frunk, to allow carrying some longer items without necessarily having them hanging over the back, or if they do there's at least a lot more support and a lot more of the material within the confines of the vehicle. The Bollinger B2 has this feature.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if there are a couple of features or concepts that are completely new to the pickup space that turn into killer apps.
     
  23. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, I figured it had to be something like that. I did some checking and discovered that your premiums are more than twice what I'd pay for that fleet, with double the coverage on the cars and four times the umbrella, in Upstate New York, with USAA.

    The point for my purposes is that there's no difference in liability premiums and almost no difference in physical damage premiums per dollar of car value.

    Rich
     
  24. SoonerAviator

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    I really wonder about how they'll deal with the battery capacity needed for towing. I've taken 6-7Klbs of trailer 2 hours down the highway and back in a day (boat to the lake, bobcat or tractor out to pasture land) where there's no real access to charging. So we're talking close to 250 miles round trip with a 6K lbs truck towing 7K pounds of trailer/equipment. It's right in the middle of what full-size half ton trucks are made for, and I feel like the battery bank would have to be massive to do that with any moderate amount of range left over for peace of mind. For those who just run a truck a DD and occasional trips to Home Depot, it's not a difficult problem to toss some beefed up Model S equipment into a truck frame. For those who actually tow moderate weights or regularly use the payload capacity of a half-ton or bigger truck, it's a harder proposition.

    I'd also add that it's REALLY HARD to win over truck owners with a new brand. Look at the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra as examples. They have gained some market share (and also lost it) when trying to get into the half ton class. Toyota got raked over the coals with their Tundra when the frame had a few instances of flex/twist which caused the bed to shatter the back glass of the cab. The Nissan Titan got roasted over poor driveline/differentials/4WD systems which killed their sales. It's tough to break into the Top 3 truck makers, so if Tesla is going to have any success, they're going to have to build the best truck, not just a Model S with a truck bed.
     
  25. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Easy...

    Just plug the pickup into the inverter and charge it from there.
     
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  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not hard at all. You have a lot of room for a big battery in a pickup. They're doing a 200kWh pack for the new Roadster which is much smaller. I would expect an optional 200kWh-300kWh pack for the pickup for use in towing and/or construction (to power tools off an inverter).
     
  27. SoonerAviator

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    Well, depending on whether you are going to use bed-space for that larger battery pack. You're probably adding 2K lbs just to the body of the vehicle to go from Model S to Half-ton truck (most current half tons have almost a 5,500lbs curb weight, I doubt Telsa is able to do any better). So, a larger battery pack will be needed just to get similar range out of the truck as you would a Model S. The problem I foresee is that when towing 7K, my mpg goes from 16mpg to around 11mpg on relatively flat highway at 70mph. We're talking a bit more than 30% loss in fuel mileage. So, assuming electric has that same loss, I feel like they risk having to use bed space in order to come up with the space to shove all of the needed battery capacity.
     
  28. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Woooaahh..... why hasn't someone thought of this before..???


    [​IMG]
     
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  29. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you think about how high off the ground the bottom of a pickup bed usually is, I don't think it'll be tough at all to put a much bigger pack in. The pack in the models S, X, and 3 is underneath the floor - Very flat. Quite a few other EVs use this "skateboard" design as well - It's a real boon to safety, since it puts the CG of the vehicle so low that it's nearly impossible to flip over.

    For reference, the single-layer pack in the Model 3 (which uses the 2170-size cells that Tesla is moving towards) is only 3.5" thick, with 2.76" of that being the height of the batteries. The additional height is split between connections and the case, so a triple-layer battery would be about 9-10" thick. Seems that a truck frame of that thickness would work well, right? Or even the 6-7" thick of a dual-layer battery? In addition, the pickup has some additional length to work with.

    So, of all the engineering problems to be solved in the design of the Tesla pickup, IMO putting a huge battery into it is one of the easier ones to deal with.

    One of the harder ones I've thought of: How do you prevent the load that's in the bed from being dropped, in place, onto the road when doing a Ludicrous-mode launch? :D :rofl:

    [​IMG]
     
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  30. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    The problem with towing is the drag and sheer weight that is applying forces on the rear of your truck.

    My travel trailer puts 1000 lbs of weight on the hitch. It’s 36 ft long, pretty damn tall, and weighs a good 8500 lbs. I also fill the box of my truck with gear, generator, etc. Gusty crosswinds puts some strong forces on the truck. Tough mission, but no problem for the turbo V6 F150. Even through the steepest mountain grades, it can pull the trailer fast enough to put me in jail.

    I towed it at 80 mph recently from Lincoln, to Denver, to Yellowstone, into Yellowstone, to Glacier National park, then into Canada and back.

    The day Tesla has a truck that can tow it 320 miles between stops, handle the camper as well as my F150, charge it within 15 minutes, and has a charging network built out to support my described cross country trip...I’ll order one first thing.

    That all said, I expect my next truck will be another Ford.
     
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  31. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep. Gas mileage does tank hard when you start pulling something with that much drag.

    None of that should be any trouble for an electric truck. At least, not one that's done right (I expect some of the traditional OEMs will half-ass theirs). It will certainly need a hefty battery to be able to pull a travel trailer at a reasonable trip speed cross country (ie, not stopping to charge every hour or anything like that).

    Looking at the 2019 F-150 with a 3.5L EcoBoost (because nobody's towing with that 2.7L...), it gets 25 MPG on the highway. Say towing reduces that by 40%, that's 15 MPG. By my calculations, even a 200kWh battery should give you 300 miles of range, and that's WITH the trailer. But, since strong headwinds and going up big hills and cold would all affect it, let's just go ahead and give it 300 kWh so that it's a comfortable 350 miles (even if it'd be rated at more like 450). So, should be easily do-able from a technical standpoint.

    FWIW, speaking of weight, even the Model X can tow 5,000 pounds. I would expect no less than the 10,000 pounds that the F-150 can do from Tesla's pickup. And the F-150 is the truck you have to (try to) beat, whether you're Tesla, or GMC or Dodge or Toyota. Ford is damn good at pickups and has been at the top of the game for a long, long time. Tesla knows this. I have high expectations for them on the pickup, and I think everyone else does too. If they really want the US market to go electric, they have to make theirs a no-compromises truck.

    So the 320 miles shouldn't be a problem, as described above. Should handle the camper just fine with that range, presuming they do have a 200-300 kWh battery option like I expect. Just eyeballing your trip vs. the Supercharger map, a stop at Gothenburg or Ogalalla on the way to Denver would get you there easily. Charge up in Denver while you're there...

    And there are many possible routes to Yellowstone, but I'll go with 25 back up to 80 and then back roads. There isn't a stop perfectly in the middle there, bu you could do short stops at Laramie, Rock Springs, and Jackson. There's even a Supercharger at West Yellowstone if you drive around the park a lot and need to juice up more before proceeding.

    On the way to Glacier, one stop at Missoula should do the trick, though with the remoteness of where you're going next I'd probably make an "insurance" stop at Kalispell.

    You don't really define "Canada" but I'm assuming you went back east in Canada, and then south to get back to Lincoln. I'd make a stop at Fernie, BC or Fort MacLeod, AB depending on state of charge after I was done at Glacier, after that you'd be on the 401 with Superchargers all over the place. I'd probably plan on Maple Creek, Moose Jaw, and Moosomin, SK; Portage la Prairie, MB; Pembina and Fargo, ND; Sioux Falls, SD and back to Lincoln.

    Now, as for charging speed: You're using a TON of juice, so a full 0-80% charge is going to take you around 45 minutes, at least for the near future. But, you may well find that once you have an EV, you don't actually care about it that much. It's not like you have to stand at the pump and actively fuel the thing up the way you do with a gasser. Just plug in and go do something else: Take a leak, grab some food or coffee, walk the dog if you have one, unplug and go. And if you stop overnight at places with Tesla Destination Chargers or NEMA 14-50 (big RV) outlets, you're not waiting at all for one charge per day.

    And maybe it'll be electric. ;) https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25933730/ford-f-150-electric-pickup-truck-confirmed/
     
  32. JOhnH

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    Depending on when you buy, I expect that for your use, you will probably need an IC engine. But looking out just 5 to 10 years, I think you will be looking more seriously at electric.

    No single product is going to meet everyone's needs. At least not in the early development stages.
     
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  33. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I think it can tow a bit more than that.... maybe 50 times that.

     
  34. SoonerAviator

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    Well, just like watching the Toyota Tundra tow the Space Shuttle, it’s not really the issue. Towing capacity is as much suspension and braking capabilities as it is engine HP. Hell, most half tons today have more HP than 1 tons did back in the 1980s, but I still don’t want to tow 15K with an F-150.

    The Tesla is probably going to come in 500-700lbs heavier than a traditional IC half ton truck, so their suspension is going to probably have to be stiffer as well.

    Time will tell, but I doubt Ford loses the lead in the truck market, since they already have an electric-f-series in the works.
     
  35. Heftiger

    Heftiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My next vehicle needs to be a truck. The family just needs the space and ability to haul stuff occasionally. The problem is the current truck market is heavily utilizing the turbo charger to achieve efficiency. My less than 1 mile commute to work is going to trash the turbo. A Tesla truck might be a great option for my need.
     
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  36. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    I’ve been following that. We’ll see but given how they’re keeping the entire drivetrain, and powering it via the transmission or some other such thing, this hybrid version will likely not be for me. I don’t see how it’ll be able to tow as much given all the additional weight it’ll be carrying. That’s OK though, most F150 owners do not tow heavy ****.

    I’m sure they’re working on an all electric too. But they won’t be releasing one until the capabilities are all correct and that appears at least one major generation redesign away from this first hybrid version.
     
  37. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    lol. Yeah. Let me see that Tesla tow that up to 75 mph. My truck would have no issue doing the exact same thing, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to claim it can tow that weight, as it’d be dangerous as **** on the street.

    The problem with towing with light pickups has little to do with the horsepower and more to do with handling all of those forces which are being applied behind the drive wheels.
     
  38. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    OK, I probably should have said it's rated for 5000 pounds.

    Those "pickup towing giant aircraft" stunts don't really impress me much. You're not putting 10% of the weight on the hitch like a normal towing operation. All you're doing is pulling something that happens to be heavy that's carrying its own weight and has wheels. Whoopty doo. A single human being can pull that aircraft too...



    Without a fast charging network, nobody else's electric is going to do much of anything. This is one of the most shortsighted pieces of the puzzle for the non-Tesla portion of the industry. None of the auto manufacturers have announced a fast charging network or even any support for it. In fact, at least some of them have announced they're NOT supporting any networks or investing in any charging infrastructure.

    In addition, none of the oil companies are diversifying into it. They're still too busy trying to spread FUD about electric cars.

    One might say "There's an opportunity for someone else!" But this stuff is going to require a huge company with a lot of money to make a huge investment that won't pay off for quite some time. Each fast charging station costs on the order of $30,000. As of January, Tesla had a little over 12,000 of them, and the Supercharger network is growing at a very fast pace. Obviously, Tesla does not pay $30K per Supercharger (that's retail for some of the units by ABB, Eaton, AeroVironment*, etc) because they're designing and building them themselves, but they've certainly made a massive investment in infrastructure that's given them a huge competitive advantage: There is NO non-Tesla BEV that can really be a good road-trip vehicle right now. But, someone is going to have to make that investment for everyone else, or the other manufacturers are going to have to cave and give in to Tesla's offer to allow their vehicles onto the Supercharger network. Who know what'll happen. :dunno:
     
  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, I really liked my Fusion Energi and thought the engineering on it was fantastic. But, I think there's a bit more to it than just scaling that up, and they used up the majority of the cargo room for the battery. That's one of the big drawbacks of taking an existing design and turning it into a hybrid - If you're not getting rid of the engine, you have to find a place to stuff MORE components, plus the battery.

    Going purely electric gives you a lot more room to work with, but I still hope they at least think about making more substantial adjustments so as to keep the battery out of the way. The skateboard design is used frequently, because it really works well. If it requires a bit of redesign, and a bit of adjustment to the ICE F-150 for commonality and economies of scale, they should do that. If they just stuff a giant battery under the hood of an F-150 that hasn't changed at all from the current ICE design, they'll have a flop on their hands.
     
  40. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    BTW, some interesting bits about the Rivian R1T electric pickup: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/18/rivian-r1t-electric-truck-camp-kitchen-overland-west/

    They put a slide-out camp kitchen in the gear tunnel that goes side to side in the front of the bed/back of the cab area, powered by the battery. Cool.

    It has a 180kWh battery. They put a motor on each wheel, and they total 750hp. 400 mile range, 0-60 in three seconds, tows 11,000 pounds. They say they're going to start production in fall of 2020. I think it's more likely that will slip, or they'll get bought out by GM or someone else. "2020" has become a joke in the EV world, because EVERY manufacturer says they're going to be doing <insert every single promise they're making about future EVs> in 2020.

    In any case, if nothing else it's a proof of concept that this stuff can be viable... And Tesla tends to put bigger batteries in their stuff than anyone else, so if Rivian is doing 180kWh, I think we'll see a 250-300 kWh option from Tesla.