Taxes, My son gets it!

I know, I was just picking a number out of the air instead of just saying "lower" :D

And I do appreciate that. :D Of course, changing the federal rate does nothing to the other taxes we have, sales, state income, property, etc, but I know everyone would love to see a lower burden. There are just diminishing returns as you get below a certain point, so it seems proper to aim for that peak.

Personally, I think we dropped below the peak with the Bush cuts, and would prefer that all brackets go back to the levels under Clinton.
 
I know, I was just picking a number out of the air instead of just saying "lower" :D

In addition, setting a rate and getting rid of the deductions makes the process more transparent.

So Congress can't go and give some tax credit to someone, which amounts to spending money but they don't have to call it that.

If they need more money for the Treasury, they have no choice but to be honest about it and bump the rate.
 
And I do appreciate that. :D Of course, changing the federal rate does nothing to the other taxes we have, sales, state income, property, etc, but I know everyone would love to see a lower burden. There are just diminishing returns as you get below a certain point, so it seems proper to aim for that peak.

Personally, I think we dropped below the peak with the Bush cuts, and would prefer that all brackets go back to the levels under Clinton.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the current burden. I'm just sick and tired of all the little breaks and deductions and the tens of thousands of pages of rules that go into it.

A simple, flat, tax (or even a flatter tax), with no exemptions or deductions therefrom, on net income, would make the cost of compliance WAY lower. It would also force Congresscritters and Senators (regardless of party) be more honest with their constituents about when they increase taxes...they'll see it there on their one page 1040.
 
And if they do, they prove that they don't understand taxes. Our taxes phase in and out so there is no point at which you make more for earning less. Crossing over the magical 250K line to hit a top bracket only affects whatever you make OVER that 250K line.

Consider this hypothetical. Say, I am a business owner who typically makes 500K. Fed tax is 35% over 250K and state is 10%. Say there was 50K tax on the first 250K. That would leave 337K. Now suppose that I worked an average 65 hours a week plus a few employees to earn that. Suppose that everything I have is paid for (no debt) so I really only need 25K to be comfortable. Now suppose that tax law was changed to 70% (it actually was that high in the 1970's). So, now with fed and state, they take 80% above 250K. With 50K paid on the first 250K and 200K paid on the next 250K, that would leave me with 250K out of the total 500K.

At this point, I would be thinking 65 hours is too much for the additional income. So, I might consider raising prices so my sales go down, and I have to work less. Initially, my sales don't go down, so I am working the same, but income goes up some. But, take home doesn't change much. So, I continue to increase prices until sales drop off to 1/4 as much, but my income drops to only 250K. Now, I have laid off an employee and I only need to work 16 hours a week and I still bring home 200K, way more than I need. There is little incentive to work so many more hours for such a marginal increase. You can figure the effect on the economy if too many small businesses take this approach...
 
Question for all you tax experts. Is Federal withholding taken before or after your state withholding is subtracted?
 
That's not really a useful hypothetical without some discussion of whatever product or service you provide and some information on the price elasticity of the product/service. There are relatively few products/services that you can say, "I'll just raise my price until my revenue drops 75%".


Trapper John
 
Question for all you tax experts. Is Federal withholding taken before or after your state withholding is subtracted?
Why would it matter? The withholdings are based on your gross pay. that is the same value for each taxing body.

If your withholding for Federal tax is y and if your withholding for State tax is z.

Does it matter if Federal Tax withholding, which is GROSSPAY - y is taken before State Tax which is GROSSPAY - z ?
 
Why would it matter? The withholdings are based on your gross pay. that is the same value for each taxing body.

If your withholding for Federal tax is y and if your withholding for State tax is z.

Does it matter if Federal Tax withholding, which is GROSSPAY - y is taken before State Tax which is GROSSPAY - z ?

Reason I asked is you would then agree that I paid Federal taxes of GROSSPAY -y yet if I get a State refund, which is money I've paid taxes on, I have to claim that as income.
 
The income tax was originally sold to the American people in 1862 to pay for the Civil War. It was essentially a "luxury tax," and the lowest bracket was $600 to $10,000, upon which a 3 percent tax was levied. Like many taxes, it was sold as a "tax on the rich" to appeal to populist sympathies, and was claimed to be "temporary." And indeed, it was repealed in 1872.

In 1894, Congress attempted to reinstate the tax, but it was ruled unconstitutional by Supreme Court in 1895 (Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.) because it was a direct tax that was not apportioned among the states.

The government's solution, of course, was the Sixteenth Amendment, which overruled Pollack and gave the feds the authority to tax all income "from whatever source derived." But again, the people were sold a bill of goods. President Wilson (and others) had originally proposed that the tax be levied only against corporations at a rate of 2 percent, and later supporters again appealed to populist sympathies by advocating it as a "five and five tax," referring to a 5 percent tax levied against the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans.

My point is that the tax has been "progressive" and graduated ever since its inception, even before the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment. It also has been deceptive, with the American people being mislead to believe that the vast majority would never have to pay it.

Personally, I believe that the Sixteenth Amendment should be repealed, the income tax abolished and replaced with nothing, and all government agencies and programs whose functions are not specifically required by the Constitution eliminated. History has shown that all governments tend to grow bigger if allowed to do so; and that the bigger they get, the more they tend toward tyranny. The best way to prevent this is by choking off their money supply. Hence, abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing.

However, I also recognize that abolishing the income tax is a fantasy. Most people just don't get the connection between taxation and tyranny.

So if we must have an income tax, then asking, "Why is it a progressive, graduated tax?" is pointless. The answer is simple: That was the only way the people would allow it to be enacted. Remember, the first income tax went into effect at a time when tarring and feathering was still an occasional occurrence. Politicians were perhaps more responsive to populist sentiments as a result.

The better question to ask is, "Why does it take so much blasted money to run the federal government?" Two corollary questions would be, "Do we really, really need all these federal programs and agencies?" and "What can we do to stop the unbridled growth of the federal government, if we're not willing to choke off its money supply?"

-Rich
 
Reason I asked is you would then agree that I paid Federal taxes of GROSSPAY -y yet if I get a State refund, which is money I've paid taxes on, I have to claim that as income.
That depends on how you deducted your state taxes from your federal tax return.

If you entered into the federal tax form the actual taxes you need to pay to the state, then you are already paying on any refund you might be receiving.

If you enter into your federal tax form the amount withheld from your check for state taxes then find out you are getting a refund then you do owe taxes on that refund amount. The feds allow you to claim this in the next tax year as income and it is reported on a 1099G.
 
Question for all you tax experts. Is Federal withholding taken before or after your state withholding is subtracted?

Withholding has nothing to do with what is owed. It will affect whether you pay additional or get a refund at the end of the year. If you itemize, State income tax is deductible. If you don't, it is essentially covered in the standard deduction. So, when you get a state tax refund, it depends. If you used the standard deduction, it is not added back to income. But, if you itemized, then it is added back.
 
the guvmint of the hew hess hay

I'm sure that I will see it as soon as you tell me, but what the heck are you trying to say? While you are enlightening me, could you tell me who you are trying to sound like?
 
I'm sure that I will see it as soon as you tell me, but what the heck are you trying to say? While you are enlightening me, could you tell me who you are trying to sound like?

Government of the USA. No idea who he was trying to sound like...
 
And yet there's also a point where your take home pay increases. You hit $106,800 and the SS portion of FICA disappears. That's 6.2% (12.4 if you're self employed) that your extra effort nets you.

True - forgot about that point. But in fairness, SS also has a benefit maximum, something in the upper $20's?? per year.

In all honesty, if 'return per unit of effort expended' was a reasonable standard, then I know a lot of people who would be millionaires, and none of them currently make anywhere near six figures, let alone seven.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Possibly that there are lots of people that work hard, yet are underpaid??

Gary
 
Rich people do have the option to leave and it has happened in Europe. My family moved to the USA in part due to taxes.

The problems Americans face is that the US is such a great place to leave, option to move away and still have the same standard of living are few and far. However, it is being discussed more often and more seriously. The second problem for Americans is that they are taxes on worldwide income when they bring it back (the only country to do so) so foreign investments are not as advantageous as they are for foreigners.

Don't think the "rich" won't react; they'll do so quickly and quietly. The WSJ had a great article on the subject last fall; one state increased taxes and the "rich" were gone the following year. The economy was in part responsible but many had just moved to a friendlier state.
 
Don't think the "rich" won't react; they'll do so quickly and quietly. The WSJ had a great article on the subject last fall; one state increased taxes and the "rich" were gone the following year. The economy was in part responsible but many had just moved to a friendlier state.
Can you give us an example of a friendlier country, one which has the equivalent or better standard of living and opportunities, with lower taxes?
 
The income tax was originally sold to the American people in 1862 to pay for the Civil War. It was essentially a "luxury tax," and the lowest bracket was $600 to $10,000, upon which a 3 percent tax was levied. Like many taxes, it was sold as a "tax on the rich" to appeal to populist sympathies, and was claimed to be "temporary." And indeed, it was repealed in 1872.

In 1894, Congress attempted to reinstate the tax, but it was ruled unconstitutional by Supreme Court in 1895 (Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.) because it was a direct tax that was not apportioned among the states.

The government's solution, of course, was the Sixteenth Amendment, which overruled Pollack and gave the feds the authority to tax all income "from whatever source derived." But again, the people were sold a bill of goods. President Wilson (and others) had originally proposed that the tax be levied only against corporations at a rate of 2 percent, and later supporters again appealed to populist sympathies by advocating it as a "five and five tax," referring to a 5 percent tax levied against the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans.

My point is that the tax has been "progressive" and graduated ever since its inception, even before the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment. It also has been deceptive, with the American people being mislead to believe that the vast majority would never have to pay it.

Personally, I believe that the Sixteenth Amendment should be repealed, the income tax abolished and replaced with nothing, and all government agencies and programs whose functions are not specifically required by the Constitution eliminated. History has shown that all governments tend to grow bigger if allowed to do so; and that the bigger they get, the more they tend toward tyranny. The best way to prevent this is by choking off their money supply. Hence, abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing.

However, I also recognize that abolishing the income tax is a fantasy. Most people just don't get the connection between taxation and tyranny.

So if we must have an income tax, then asking, "Why is it a progressive, graduated tax?" is pointless. The answer is simple: That was the only way the people would allow it to be enacted. Remember, the first income tax went into effect at a time when tarring and feathering was still an occasional occurrence. Politicians were perhaps more responsive to populist sentiments as a result.

The better question to ask is, "Why does it take so much blasted money to run the federal government?" Two corollary questions would be, "Do we really, really need all these federal programs and agencies?" and "What can we do to stop the unbridled growth of the federal government, if we're not willing to choke off its money supply?"

-Rich

Thank you, Rich, for laying it out plainly.

The biggest myth is the belief that government can do anything efficiently- it cannot - and while, there are somethings which simply must be done by the government, they are few.

Congress uses tax and regulatory policis to impose its will on the people, and ironically enough, very frequently exempts itself from teh very laws they pass. It is not a formula for a just and equitable society.
 
The biggest myth is the belief that government can do anything efficiently- it cannot
Then explain the fire department?

The FD's first started out as private enterprises belonging to insurance companies. If you had insurance and a fire broke out, then the insurance's FD would put it out. Each insurance company had their own fire department and if you had the wrong insurance the fire department that showed up would do nothing. After more than a few fires got out of control because of this or people having no fire insurance at all, government got involved. I think it is obvious that government is doing a far better job at fighting fires than the private sector ever did.

Since we are interested in aviation lets look at how private enterprise did better for us. Wilbur and Orville worked and come up with the first powered airplane without government assistance while Glenn Curtis floundered with his government grants. Then what happened?

For the next decade the Wright company did nothing but slightly improve their design and fight patent cases. It was not until they got their government contracts did they finally make the money they needed. Meanwhile the other government supported airplane manufacturers caught up and then surpassed the Wrights.

Private space travel has yet to materialize and in the 50 years of a government space program the best private industry has done is get one guy into a sub orbital flight. Keep in mind that the predecessor of NASA, NACA, did tons of work on airfoil design, those designs are still in use today. They did that because most airplane companies did not have the knowledge or machinery to do the designs themselves.

So spare us the ideological "government does nothing efficiently' talk and remember that when it comes to blowing junk up no one does it better than the US Government!

BTW which private entity came up with the Internet?
 
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Congress uses tax and regulatory policis to impose its will on the people, and ironically enough, very frequently exempts itself from teh very laws they pass. It is not a formula for a just and equitable society.
For example? Something that happens "very frequently" should have many examples to offer up, but I'm having trouble thinking of what they might be. I guess they're exempt from having to buy stamps, but I'm guessing that's not really what you had in mind.
-harry
 
Don't think the "rich" won't react; they'll do so quickly and quietly. The WSJ had a great article on the subject last fall; one state increased taxes and the "rich" were gone the following year. The economy was in part responsible but many had just moved to a friendlier state.
The state was Maryland, which is where I live.

And what they noticed was that when you raise taxes on millionaires, and at the same time the economy collapses, there are fewer millionaires. So, everybody (who wanted to conclude this) concluded, of course, that raising taxes on millionaires makes for fewer millionaires, conveniently forgetting that economic collapse makes that happen too. As far as I know, nobody has done the research needed to determine if millionaires actually left the state, or if everybody is just making less money in the middle of a recession.
-harry
 
For example? Something that happens "very frequently" should have many examples to offer up, but I'm having trouble thinking of what they might be. I guess they're exempt from having to buy stamps, but I'm guessing that's not really what you had in mind.
-harry
I think Spike might be referring to some of the laws that Congress exempts themselves from.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,967427,00.html

This article has a listing of a whole bunch of the 'some pigs are more equal' things he is referring to.

What is interesting is that article is from 1988 and nothing has really changed. Not even after 1994 Republican revolution.
 
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The state was Maryland, which is where I live.

And what they noticed was that when you raise taxes on millionaires, and at the same time the economy collapses, there are fewer millionaires. So, everybody (who wanted to conclude this) concluded, of course, that raising taxes on millionaires makes for fewer millionaires, conveniently forgetting that economic collapse makes that happen too. As far as I know, nobody has done the research needed to determine if millionaires actually left the state, or if everybody is just making less money in the middle of a recession.
-harry

Michigan. Except the millionaires were companies when granmole and company decided to raise the biz tax.
 
Can you give us an example of a friendlier country, one which has the equivalent or better standard of living and opportunities, with lower taxes?

Australia comes close.......
 
Australia comes close.......
It is probably nicer thanks to all those social services the government provides, like health care.

But just as an FYI the tax burden on the average Australian is higher than the average American.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2005-06/06rn18.pdf

According the Australian government the average worker is paying 56% of their wages to taxes while the US is paying 10%.

The US is really one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.

In actuality Australia does not come anywhere close to being the correct answer to Mari's question.
 
govt funded != govt efficiency.
 
Actually Scott I DO stand corrected.....see this: http://www.forbes.com/global/2009/0413/034-tax-misery-reform-index.html

New Zealand on the other hand sure seems nice and is taxed less than us!

BTW...while I understand the rates and such, it still boggles my mind the amount of wealth transfer/tax the wealthy we have going on in this country. I know you disagree, that is fine, I just find it mind boggling how so many can say "take from them" and not even think about it.
 
It is probably nicer thanks to all those social services the government provides, like health care.

But just as an FYI the tax burden on the average Australian is higher than the average American.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2005-06/06rn18.pdf

According the Australian government the average worker is paying 56% of their wages to taxes while the US is paying 10%.

The US is really one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.

In actuality Australia does not come anywhere close to being the correct answer to Mari's question.

10%???? 10%???? Who the HELL is paying 10%? I do not know anyone only paying 10%. I freaking WISH!
 
10%???? 10%???? Who the HELL is paying 10%? I do not know anyone only paying 10%. I freaking WISH!

Take the usual 25-30% of the "Wealthy" people that make $50-$70K a year.

Average it with the millions of poor, uneducated folk that are too lazy to find real jobs and pay 0 dollars in tax.

What is the average?

Low enough to allow people like Scott to say that we, as a country, are undertaxed.

The solution: Tax everyone the same percentage.
 
It is probably nicer thanks to all those social services the government provides, like health care.

But just as an FYI the tax burden on the average Australian is higher than the average American.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2005-06/06rn18.pdf

According the Australian government the average worker is paying 56% of their wages to taxes while the US is paying 10%.

The US is really one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.

In actuality Australia does not come anywhere close to being the correct answer to Mari's question.

Interestingly, voting in Australia is compulsory.

At least we have the right to sit in our Barcaloungers and nod along with Hannity and O'Reilly without the mandatory inconvenience of getting off our backsides on election day.


Trapper John
 
The solution: Tax everyone the same percentage.

Which would effectively be regressive taxation. As in unfair to lower income folks. There's a reason we have a progressive system - it was already covered earlier in the thread.


Trapper John
 
Which would effectively be regressive taxation. As in unfair to lower income folks. There's a reason we have a progressive system - it was already covered earlier in the thread.


Trapper John

I'd rather it unfair to the poor than unfair to the rich.

The rich actually spend money.

Aside from Big Screen TVs and new cars and homes they can't afford, the poor don't spend money at all.
 
Which would effectively be regressive taxation. As in unfair to lower income folks. There's a reason we have a progressive system - it was already covered earlier in the thread.


Trapper John

How is having someone who makes $100,000 pay twice as much as someone who makes $50,000 regressive? Why does it have to be 2.5x?
 
How is having someone who makes $100,000 pay twice as much as someone who makes $50,000 regressive? Why does it have to be 2.5x?

Because he makes 50k and not 100k. :rofl:

15% with a standard deduction for everyone is not regressive. The rate gradually goes up.
 

Could you explain this reference better? I'm not convenced this is an apples to apples test.

According the Australian government the average worker is paying 56% of their wages to taxes while the US is paying 10%.

I can see the reference to the 10% figure (Table 2), but it appears that this is the top marginal rate, not the average. This may change depending on the individual tax brackets themselves and where the thresholds lie. But it may also be due to the fact that the USA has many more really rich people than Australia.

The US is really one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.

Probably true, but the difference isn't as great as may appear. The explaination for Table 4 (what I believe to be a better comparason) clearly indicates that the table does not take into account state/provincial personal income tax rates in the USA.

Gary
 
It is probably nicer thanks to all those social services the government provides, like health care.

But just as an FYI the tax burden on the average Australian is higher than the average American.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2005-06/06rn18.pdf

According the Australian government the average worker is paying 56% of their wages to taxes while the US is paying 10%.

The US is really one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.

In actuality Australia does not come anywhere close to being the correct answer to Mari's question.

Actually, Scott, I beg to differ.

I suspect that the average American pays more than 50 percent of his income in taxes, if you add them all up. In New York City / State, I pay:


  • Federal income tax
  • Self-Employment Tax
  • Social Security
  • Medicare
  • State income tax
  • City income tax
  • Sales tax (8+ percent, depending on jurisdiction)
  • Fuel taxes (for heating fuel)
  • Gasoline taxes
  • Property taxes
  • Telephone taxes
  • Cable / Internet taxes
  • Electricity tax
  • Tolls (almost all of which go to fund public transportation)
  • Metropolitan Commuter Tax (ditto)
  • Annual LLC Filing Fee (a fee they charge me for the privilege of filing taxes)
And there are probably others that escape me at the moment. Last year, however, more than half of my gross receipts went to taxes of one sort of another. The government made more money on my labor than I did -- and that's not even counting the taxes I collected for them.

There's certainly something wrong with that. When half the dollars a man generate go to the government, and the government's still running a deficit, something is deeply wrong.

-Rich
 
Because that's the definition of the terms regressive and progressive, as they are applied to taxation.

Perhaps the real question is "and why would that be a bad thing?"

We generally "like" a progressive tax system because we believe that the "burden" of income taxes is weighed relative to your disposable income, which we perceive to increase as a percentage of your overall income as your income rises.
-harry

As I think of it, a "progressive" tax system means that if you make more, you pay more. If everyone pays 20% of their income, that criteria is met. As opposed to a head-tax where everyone pays the same amount, regardless of income.
 
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