Talk me into (or out of) a fabric airplane.

MarkH

MarkH

Line Up and Wait
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MarkH
I'm airplane shopping and most of my effort has been focused on all metal/wing tank Luscombes.

But, I learned to fly tailwheel in a 7ac Champ, and when I see them listed for sale I find myself mentally listening all the reasons I shouldn't buy one. This list includes:

I don't, and likely will never have a hangar.
- I am concerned about the fabric in the desert sun
- I am concerned about covers in the desert wind (the canopy cover for my last plane was shredded, fortunately with no noticeable damage, but the paint wasn't great to start with.)

I want to be able to fly into Mexico.
- I'm concerned that the transponder/ADSB requirements without a generator would back me into a corner (some pilots in GA wrote the FAA about this, but there was never a response).

Mostly my concern is the fabric in the sun. How long can I reasonably expect fabric to last in the desert? What covering processes would handle it best?
 
I have a similar concern...but for sun and rain. Flying a Champ was the most fun I had in all my flying, and every now and then I think it would be fun to get one....and affordable.... except waiting lists for hangars around here are long.

I'll put this out there for others that know to comment about..... seems like it might be better outside for a modern fabric over all metal....as opposed to fabric over a wood spar or other wood structure. Yes? no?
 
Modern finishes are claiming 20 to 30 years longevity outside if applied properly.

They EASILY last that long (even double that) in non climate controlled environments.

Those structures weren’t really made to go that long without inspection though…

If you could find a sound aircraft you could simply refinish, install a few extra inspection holes, wouldn’t really scare me. If it already has adequate inspection ports, ditto.

I am, and have always been, like minded with you, it’s nuts to keep one out. But modern systems are really amazing. I can’t find a good academic reason it’s not feasible.

I would also add I think it then becomes REALLY important to fly, as that’s the best way to keep them dried out.
 
Sorry I can’t provide input on the best system in your locale but here

are a few thoughts on fabric in general.

The quality of the application will determine the longevity. Most

systems use some form of Dacron. If the finish chips or peels the

raw Dacron will deteriorate and you may be able to poke your finger

through it. Immediate touch up is required; particularly if outdoors.

During the Prebuy take some panels off the bottom of the wing.

In direct sunlight you should not see light penetrating from above.

If it does the UV protection ( silver , aluminum, or?) is inadequate.

Since this is normally under the color coats adding UV coats will

require more finish coats.

Adequate drain holes will protect the interior structure. Don’t worry

about having too many.

Aircraft that have fabric wrapped around the lower longerons

may have moisture trapped that will rust out the tubing.

Good application will assure the tubing is painted with materials

that will prolong of the structure.
 
UV is the enemy of fabric. If you can make a shade cover to park under you’ll extend the fabric life. Being in a dry climate the structure should do fine. I’d avoid Stits Polytone and Butyrate dope and would favor a urethane coating. I’m still a fan of silver coats but Air Tech and Superflite use different types of UV blocking coating. How they stand up to desert sun is unknown to me but you can ask around in your area for knowledge. I don’t prefer Oratex and know very little about its longevity in UV exposure.

In Alaska, Cubs parked outdoors is common. They get 20-25 years but by then the steel structure is a bigger issue than fabric. But we have a low UV index and other weather problems to deal with.
 
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When I considered my first Maule one of the criteria was that I had access to an A&P with fabric experience. If I didn't have that, I would have probably looked for something entirely metal. But since the airport closest to my US location has a fabric guy with multiple awards at Oshkosh, that requirement was easily satisfied.
 
Modern fabric systems hold up perfectly fine to being outside. It will weather just like a metal plane, nothing last for ever. If it were cotton and dope then you would have a problem pretty quick but not many of those are still around. You will likely be ready to freshen up the paint long before there are any structural fabric issues. My biggest concern would be the wood that most fabric planes still use. In the case of a Citabria it will the the spars and formers/stringers. A good custom fit cover that wraps around the windows, wing roots, and doors will keep most of it out. Flying the plane regularly will help as well. Make sure the proper weep holes are in the fabric and if you do get some damage in the finish fix it asap. On the bright side, the money you save by not renting a hangar will pay for a fabric job after 12-15 years. It's like getting a makeover for free!
 
What fabric system do you use that you “refresh” the paint?
 
FTR, mine is Ceconite fabric, Stits coatings through silver, and Aerothane top coat. The one I built before this one had dope with Imron trim.
 
My Cessna was painted with Imron 24 years ago and parked outside for 19 years before moving to a hangar. The paint is near perfect. A few small chips where they’d expect to be found with gravel ops. I theory the Cub’s Aerothane would be similar exept that chips must be dealt with before UV can damage what’s exposed. Stits coatings are very flexible and Aerothane is the most flexible of urethane paints. That’s why I used them. The idea that tube and fabric is durable depends on the products used and the environment where the plane is used. I like Cubs but make no mistake, metal airplanes are more durable.
 
My old Stinson used the Poly Fiber system and had a Polytone top coat. It spent 10ish years sitting outside up in Alaska and another decade sitting on a lake in Minnesota before it saw a hangar, and resided in a hangar for about 5 years prior to my ownership. The paint job wasn't pretty but it was still serviceable, and the fabric under it was fine. My Cub has a more traditional fabric job and a butyrate top coat. The Cub sits outside when I'm traveling and I have no concern with that but it has been hangared since it was covered about 15 years ago. I don't live in the desert and haven't worked on any fabric covered aircraft that I am aware of that have spent a lot of time sitting outside in that environment so I can't say how durable any specific finish would be in that environment.

About all I work on these days are fabric covered airplanes. If I were putting an airplane together for myself I would use Poly Fiber with a Polytone top coat. It may not look as pretty as the urethane paint options will but it will likely be the most durable option and most repairable long term.
 
Tools said:
Modern finishes are claiming 20 to 30 years longevity outside if applied properly.

They EASILY last that long (even double that) in non climate controlled environments.

Those structures weren’t really made to go that long without inspection though…

If you could find a sound aircraft you could simply refinish, install a few extra inspection holes, wouldn’t really scare me. If it already has adequate inspection ports, ditto.

I am, and have always been, like minded with you, it’s nuts to keep one out. But modern systems are really amazing. I can’t find a good academic reason it’s not feasible.

I would also add I think it then becomes REALLY important to fly, as that’s the best way to keep them dried out.
Click to expand...

Other than light through the fabric, what should I look for to estimate the useful life on fabric?

Is there a good way to inspect the interior structure of the plane to weed out problems before it gets to a prebuy?
 
mondtster said:
About all I work on these days are fabric covered airplanes. If I were putting an airplane together for myself I would use Poly Fiber with a Polytone top coat. It may not look as pretty as the urethane paint options will but it will likely be the most durable option and most repairable long term
Click to expand...

Good to hear. I’m currently painting my Hatz Classic in polytone. I used it due to ease of application, repairability, a the fact that I wanted my Classic to look more like a vintage airplane and show a little fabric weave.
 
MarkH said:
Other than light through the fabric, what should I look for to estimate the useful life on fabric?

Is there a good way to inspect the interior structure of the plane to weed out problems before it gets to a prebuy?
Click to expand...
There is no way to tell. You can get a punch tester but that's more of a pass/fail. You can look for cracks in the finish, peeling tape edges, or loose ends where it's glued down. Frankly if the paint is severely faded and cracking then you can assume it's time for a recover.

As for interior, just like any other plane. There are inspection panels to access critical areas. You can look at the areas where the fabric is glued to the tubing for bubbles or a very rough surface finish. Maybe take a hammer and a block of wood to tap along the lower longerons to ensure they haven't corroded to paper thin walls.

Don't fall for a hangar queen either. Any fabric will look great if hidden in a hangar barely used for years. As soon as it starts flapping in the wind it's liable to crack like the salt flats.
 
Ceconite and dope or Poly-Fiber, you can rejuvenate if it's not too bad. Urethanes are nice and shiny if you're into that look (I'm with @painless, not appropriate for most vintage planes) but they're a lot more difficult to repair.
 
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