Taking off from Class C

[Toby]

Basic question. If I'm departing from a class C, and my instructions are to fly runway heading at or below 3000, when I get to 3000 I can turn in the direction I want, right? I can't find a reference to this in the FAR/AIM. When I was turned over to Dep. Control yesterday, they asked for my requested altitude and told me to climb as requested, but they didn't say anything about heading. I turned, and no one objected.

I realized yesterday that I didn't know if I was supposed to announce my turn or wait for any magic words. I was still way within the class C. I go over to ISP to practice all the time, but I don't originate any flights there.

Thanks.

 

[Bill]

Basic question. If I'm departing from a class C, and my instructions are to fly runway heading at or below 3000, when I get to 3000 I can turn in the direction I want, right?

Good morning Toby!

I was taught to follow the previous instructions until another one is issued. In this case, I'd climb to 2800-2900, and continue to fly runway heading. If I thought I was forgotten, I'd just give a report "Tower/departure, bugsmasher 123 at 2800 flying runway heading." That normally shakes them loose.

Normally, either tower gives me a heading and passes me off to dep, or they pass me to dep right away, and dep starts to vector me.

I don't do anything myself (unless safety related) until I hear that great phrase "resume own navigation."

 

[Toby]

Hi Bill,

Oh, gosh, I'm sure you're right. I was turned over to Departure at about 1500, but other than giving me the go-ahead for altitude, they gave me no vectors. They only asked for my destination, which was in the opposite direction from the way I was going.

OK, won't do that again.

 

[poadeleted3]

If I had requested to depart on a heading of (for example) 060 and runway heading is (for example) 030, I would fly 030 until I hit 3000, then turn to the direction I'd told them I wanted, assuming that's what ATC wanted me to do once I hit the altitude I specified.

I don't know if that is correct or not, though?

 

[EdFred]

If I had requested to depart on a heading of (for example) 060 and runway heading is (for example) 030, I would fly 030 until I hit 3000, then turn to the direction I'd told them I wanted, assuming that's what ATC wanted me to do once I hit the altitude I specified.

I don't know if that is correct or not, though?

Nonononononooooooooo.

Do not go above 3000', do not collect $200. Continue to fly runway heading and stay below 3000' until you get new vectors.

 

[Greebo]

Right - the instructions Toby was issued were " fly runway heading at or below 3000". That sets a heading and altitude restriction which remain in effect until you hear:

Another heading or altitude assignment - must comply
"Resume own navigation" - Refers to heading ONLY
"Resume own navigation, altitude at your discretion" - free reign
"Radar Services Terminated, squawk VFR" - free reign and they don't assist you anymore

Any instruction from ATC is a standing order until countermanded. As a VFR pilot, if you're in a 'contact required' area then you're under their control. If you're in a 'contact optional' area, then you're under their control as long as you are in contact, but if you request "Cancel VFR Advisories" in an optional area, then they have to cut you loose.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Toby: We get instructions like this all the time.

Just do what they said: stay on the runway heading and anywhere at or below 3,000 until you get further instructions (as has been said).

What they are normally doing is putting you somewhere safe until departure picks you up on radar.

Your call to departure should be, " xxxx departure, bugsmashter12345, 1500 climbing 3,000 (or whatever you intend to climb to since you have some discretion).

Approach should then call back and say, 'bugsmasher 12345, radar contact and one or two other things. If they want you to do what you've already been instructed; nothing else said.

If they want clear you somewhere else, they can change altitude, heading or just clear you on course (which is what it sounds like they were doing).

If you're not sure, just reply, bugsmasher 12345 cleared on course, climbing to xxxx thousand. If they disagree, they will correct. If they agree, they will Roger.

It's more difficult if the frequency is congested, if it's not, feel free to ask if you have a question. I have many, many times when the clearance wasn't correct, clear or the transmission was blocked.


Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[Toby]

Toby: We get instructions like this all the time.

Just do what they said: stay on the runway heading and anywhere at or below 3,000 until you get further instructions (as has been said).

What they are normally doing is putting you somewhere safe until departure picks you up on radar.

Your call to departure should be, " xxxx departure, bugsmashter12345, 1500 climbing 3,000 (or whatever you intend to climb to since you have some discretion).

Approach should then call back and say, 'bugsmasher 12345, radar contact and one or two other things. If they want you to do what you've already been instructed; nothing else said.

If they want clear you somewhere else, they can change altitude, heading or just clear you on course (which is what it sounds like they were doing).

If you're not sure, just reply, bugsmasher 12345 cleared on course, climbing to xxxx thousand. If they disagree, they will correct. If they agree, they will Roger.

It's more difficult if the frequency is congested, if it's not, feel free to ask if you have a question. I have many, many times when the clearance wasn't correct, clear or the transmission was blocked.


Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

Thank you, Dave, for your helpful response. I will use the "cleared on course" phrase next time, or I will ask if I'm cleared on course. That was the part I -- and they -- left out. Unless I just didn't hear it, which is possible.

I got confused because they asked me for the altitude I was requesting, not the altitude assigned. And they asked me for my destination and then cleared me to climb to the altitude requested. I stayed on runway heading until 3000, and that's where I became unsure. They didn't do the radar contact part; I had already been given a squawk on the ground.

Still learning.....

 

[Don Jones]

Hi Bill,

Oh, gosh, I'm sure you're right. I was turned over to Departure at about 1500, but other than giving me the go-ahead for altitude, they gave me no vectors. They only asked for my destination, which was in the opposite direction from the way I was going.

OK, won't do that again.

Toby,
When departure cleared me for altitude without the "resume own navigation"
phrase, I would have just said "Is turn on course approved for Bugsmasher123". Its easier to just ask. By not giving you a heading to fly probably meant you were approved to turn on course, but it is better to ask when in doubt.
Don

 

[Ken Ibold]

I got confused because they asked me for the altitude I was requesting, not the altitude assigned. And they asked me for my destination and then cleared me to climb to the altitude requested. I stayed on runway heading until 3000, and that's where I became unsure. They didn't do the radar contact part; I had already been given a squawk on the ground.

Had you been switched over to Departure?

Depending on how busy the controller is, it's easy to get lost in the shuffle if you're flying low enough or in a direction that does not to interfere with approaches. Many times the Departure controller simply forgets you're there. If you feel like you've been forgotten, that is, you're VFR and you've flown runway heading until you are nearly out of their airspace, simply call in with a "Mooney 01V request frequency change." They'll come back with "Frequency change approved, squawk 1200." And then you're free to resume own navigation.

 

[Toby]

Had you been switched over to Departure?

Depending on how busy the controller is, it's easy to get lost in the shuffle if you're flying low enough or in a direction that does not to interfere with approaches. Many times the Departure controller simply forgets you're there. If you feel like you've been forgotten, that is, you're VFR and you've flown runway heading until you are nearly out of their airspace, simply call in with a "Mooney 01V request frequency change." They'll come back with "Frequency change approved, squawk 1200." And then you're free to resume own navigation.

Ken, yes, this happened with Departure. I already had a code for flight following.

 

[gibbons]

Absolutely remain on the runway heading. If ATC had intended for you to turn to course the clearance would have been something like, "N36PD, climb and maintain 3,000. Upon reaching 3,000 cleared on course."

I think all of us get confused at times about whether it's OK to turn or climb, etc... As has been said, the easiest and smartest thing to do when this happens is to ask. "Departure, N36PD on runway heading assigned. Are we cleared for on course?"

Chip

 

[Dave Siciliano]

It sounded like you had been turned over to departure to me. The first thing they should do is acknowledge radar contact. Now, I'm normally IFR; so, if you're just flight following that may not be the case. Of course, they shouldn't be vectoring you without radar contact.

When you depart with flight following (other than in Class B), you are to maintain visual separation. Departure is just trying to get you safely out of there; so, they will ask for desired altitude and direction of flight. They do this many different ways but usually I am asked for "desired direction of flight", "destination", or "desired on course heading."

I have gotten caught short VFR flight following when asked for desired altitude because I just hadn't thought of it. VFR normally just flies where desired below 3,000 AGL, then the 500 even odd stuff. Just ask for a reasonable altitude, you can change it any time you want later. You can even say VFR to the East (or other general direction) and requesting 4,500 feet for instance.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS