Taking Bets on This Incident...

[KennyFlys]

I've not seen how the gear retract on a Bonanza but I'm betting the pilot grabbed the wrong lever after landing. His claim? The gear collapsed on landing. Uh huh...

The article claims the pilot was doing "touch and goes" but Austin does not allow T-n-G's at all. They won't allow practice approaches, either. There's San Marcos and two other airports nearby for a variety of approaches. So, who knows what was really up here? It's not on the up and up.

I was in the glass sim with a student the whole morning so I never had a clue it went on. By the time I did go up later in the day, it was if it had never happen.

Single-Engine Plane Crashes at ABIA

In looking at the FAA site, there are three other gear-up landings around the country and a fourth that claims the gear collapsed.

 

[gismo]

I've not seen how the gear retract on a Bonanza but I'm betting the pilot grabbed the wrong lever after landing. His claim? The gear collapsed on landing. Uh huh...

The article claims the pilot was doing "touch and goes" but Austin does not allow T-n-G's at all. They won't allow practice approaches, either. There's San Marcos and two other airports nearby for a variety of approaches. So, who knows what was really up here? It's not on the up and up.

I was in the glass sim with a student the whole morning so I never had a clue it went on. By the time I did go up later in the day, it was if it had never happen.

Single-Engine Plane Crashes at ABIA

In looking at the FAA site, there are three other gear-up landings around the country and a fourth that claims the gear collapsed.

I won't be taking that bet. In the picture the gear appears to be fully retracted and there's just no way a Bonanza gear (same gear design as on my Baron) can "collapse" and end up fully retracted. Either he didn't put the gear down before landing (most likely) or he raised the gear while still rolling down the runway. There is a squat switch that will inhibit retraction if one of the (or both on later models) struts is compressed sufficiently but testing has shown that that switch doesn't open until the airplane is virtually stopped.

 

[ntbjounin]

looks like a gear up landing to me...

 

[KennyFlys]

I won't be taking that bet. In the picture the gear appears to be fully retracted and there's just no way a Bonanza gear (same gear design as on my Baron) can "collapse" and end up fully retracted. Either he didn't put the gear down before landing (most likely) or he raised the gear while still rolling down the runway. There is a squat switch that will inhibit retraction if one of the (or both on later models) struts is compressed sufficiently but testing has shown that that switch doesn't open until the airplane is virtually stopped.

There's this habit in some circles where the pilot will raise the flaps in order to put more weight on the runway for better braking. Of course, it happens while still rolling. You can guess the rest...

That's actually what I was thinking the guy did.

 

[Ted]

There's this habit in some circles where the pilot will raise the flaps in order to put more weight on the runway for better braking. Of course, it happens while still rolling. You can guess the rest...

I've never seen how that is set up on a Bonanza, but on the Mooney, for you to make that mistake is virtually impossible. On an Aztec the flaps and the gear levers are in positions where I could see it happening, but the gear then has a safety that you need to push before you can move the gear lever.

Looks to me more like he forgot to put the gear down.

 

[wsuffa]

The article claims the pilot was doing "touch and goes" but Austin does not allow T-n-G's at all. They won't allow practice approaches, either. There's San Marcos and two other airports nearby for a variety of approaches. So, who knows what was really up here? It's not on the up and up.

I'd bet it was a gear up for the reasons others mentioned.

If Austin is not allowing practice approaches, it must be a new policy. I've done several up there in the past.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'd bet it was a gear up for the reasons others mentioned.

If Austin is not allowing practice approaches, it must be a new policy. I've done several up there in the past.

The south end of 35R/17L is being worked on so there's only 5,000 feet available. No landings are allowed on 35R and ad to that the ILS is shut down for both 17L/35R. That leaves only the west side and there's too much traffic to allow practice.

They will allow the ILS for us if we're full stop but that's pretty much it.

 

[jsstevens]

There's this habit in some circles where the pilot will raise the flaps in order to put more weight on the runway for better braking. Of course, it happens while still rolling. You can guess the rest...

That's actually what I was thinking the guy did.

Well, it DOES really improve the braking... or at least reduce the stopping distance.

John

 

[gismo]

I've never seen how that is set up on a Bonanza, but on the Mooney, for you to make that mistake is virtually impossible. On an Aztec the flaps and the gear levers are in positions where I could see it happening, but the gear then has a safety that you need to push before you can move the gear lever.

First of all, no matter how different the flap control is from the gear control, history is littered with folks raising the gear when they meant to do something else (typically raise flaps). This is due to the way our brains are wired for action sequences. If you reach for the wrong control initially, it's all too likely that you will follow up that mistake with your learned sequence for operating that control subconsciously, completely missing the fact that this sequence is all wrong for the control you meant to operate. IOW if the flap control requires you to turn clockwise then push to raise flaps and the gear control requires you to pull then lift, if you accidentally reach for the gear control your subconscious "muscle memory" can easily make the pull/lift motions out of habit. It's also apparently quite likely that your conscious brain will detect the fact that you did something wrong before the plane settles to the ground, but once the gear starts moving it's generally too late. And any distraction (the initial incorrect action itself was probably related to distraction) that occurs between raising the gear inadvetently and recognizing that you applied the wrong action will delay that recognition. I'm pretty sure that the sound of the prop eating asphalt plus the sudden sinking feeling would qualify as a significant distraction which is probably why more than one pilot has "corrected" his initial mistake by lowering the gear selector once the plane comes to a stop. I think I even saw a video where this happened in a case where the airplane flipped over when the gear came up and at the end of the video you can see the gear rising out of the wells and into the air above the upside down wings.

Looks to me more like he forgot to put the gear down.

Looking at the picture I have to agree although a closer look would allow you to easily ascertain whether or not the gear was up when the touchdown occured or was raised while rolling. In the former case the gear doors and linkages would likely be unharmed, in the latter option I'd expect to see signifiant damage to the gear and doors due to the inapproprate loads they would see when the retraction was in progress with weight on the wheels.

 

[poadeleted20]

There's this habit in some circles where the pilot will raise the flaps in order to put more weight on the runway for better braking. Of course, it happens while still rolling. You can guess the rest...

That's actually what I was thinking the guy did.

I'm not gonna guess about what happened, but I guarantee that if you reach for the flaps while still rolling on the runway with me giving instruction from the right seat, what happens to that hand is gonna leave a mark. No touchin' nothin' 'til the airplane has cleared the runway and stopped, and I teach it that way ab initio, even in fixed gear planes.

Some folks argue about braking effectiveness, but if you have to retract the flaps to stop on the remaining runway after touchdown, you should have either gone around or found a longer runway. If the runway is so short you can't stop any other way, it's too short for takeoff anyway (virtually all light GA planes requiring more runway for takeoff than for landing) and the only way the plane's leaving again is on a flatbed.

 

[docmirror]

What Ron said. The Bonanza will land shorter than it will take off. On roll-out, the only thing you should be doing is slowing the plane, and aim for your turn off the runway. I NEVER touch my flap control mainly because I have the piano switches. Like others, I suspect a simple gear-up landing.

Hope it never happens to me.

<edit, if he was doing T&Gs, this is the only scenario that I can see using the flap switch while rolling. That may contribute to the mess. Ron, how do you handle a T&G where the plane is configured for landing, and then a take off?>

 

[mikea]

There's this habit in some circles where the pilot will raise the flaps in order to put more weight on the runway for better braking. Of course, it happens while still rolling. You can guess the rest...

That's actually what I was thinking the guy did.

And that's why my CFI was insistent not to touch the flaps until clear of the runway, even though mine has a Johnson bar.

 

[jesse]

I'm not gonna guess about what happened, but I guarantee that if you reach for the flaps while still rolling on the runway with me giving instruction from the right seat, what happens to that hand is gonna leave a mark. No touchin' nothin' 'til the airplane has cleared the runway and stopped, and I teach it that way ab initio, even in fixed gear planes.

Exactly. It isn't even so much the gear problem as much as an airplane control problem. You should be flying the airplane even after the wheels touch and if you start messing with lights, radios, and flaps when you're rolling out you're not flying the airplane. You can get away with that for awhile with a nosewheel but someday the right gust of wind will come up and you'll be off the runway.

(virtually all light GA planes requiring more runway for takeoff than for landing)

I haven't flown one yet that doesn't meet that rule. That said--the typical GA pilot isn't capable of making the airplane do that on a consistent basis. Too far of a touchdown target, too much airspeed, too much power, too much float, etc.

 

[dmccormack]

I haven't flown one yet that doesn't meet that rule. That said--the typical GA pilot isn't capable of making the airplane do that on a consistent basis. Too far of a touchdown target, too much airspeed, too much power, too much float, etc.

Oh, the "typical GA pilot" was certainly capable at some point.

It's interesting that all this talk about "not touchin' nothin' until clear of the runway" sure does support the contention that Touch and Goes in retracts is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[SkyHog]

The south end of 35R/17L is being worked on so there's only 5,000 feet available. No landings are allowed on 35R and ad to that the ILS is shut down for both 17L/35R. That leaves only the west side and there's too much traffic to allow practice.

They will allow the ILS for us if we're full stop but that's pretty much it.

Retarded policy.

"Yes, we're full stop."

Follwed minutes later by...

"umm, tower, we're going missed, we'd like to divert to our alternate at this time."

What can they say?

 

[KennyFlys]

Retarded policy.

"Yes, we're full stop."

Follwed minutes later by...

"umm, tower, we're going missed, we'd like to divert to our alternate at this time."

What can they say?

Not exactly retarded. KAUS has about 130,000 operations a year with most of that being air carriers. I'd rather do the ILS practice elsewhere because otherwise we could get sequenced for whatever works with the jets. A lot of the GA traffic is having to go to 17R that would otherwise use 17L so that increases the traffic over there. When 17L comes back, things should relax some.

 

[gprellwitz]

Okay, I'll fess up. I too was taught both not to touch the flap before clear of the runway, for many of the reasons mentioned above, and that raising the flaps will decrease stopping distance. I've been going with the raise the flaps on rollout (or more usually have the copilot raise the flaps) under the reasoning that a) the flap and gear handles are significantly different on the retracts I fly; b) I could be saving some brake wear; c) I carefully confirm before lifting the lever that it is the flap and not the gear; and d) there's a squat switch to prevent raising the gear on the ground.

Given the above discussion, however, I'll be consciously stopping that practice henceforth. The costs of a single incident of hitting the wrong control far outweigh the savings on the brakes.

 

[KennyFlys]

Okay, I'll fess up. I too was taught both not to touch the flap before clear of the runway, for many of the reasons mentioned above, and that raising the flaps will decrease stopping distance. I've been going with the raise the flaps on rollout (or more usually have the copilot raise the flaps) under the reasoning that a) the flap and gear handles are significantly different on the retracts I fly; b) I could be saving some brake wear; c) I carefully confirm before lifting the lever that it is the flap and not the gear; and d) there's a squat switch to prevent raising the gear on the ground.

Given the above discussion, however, I'll be consciously stopping that practice henceforth. The costs of a single incident of hitting the wrong control far outweigh the savings on the brakes.

Even after the nose is on the squat switch, if the nose comes up enough it could possibly allow the gear to retract.

When I began flying RGs, it became a regular practice to pull the nose down and verify the squat switch would be activated.

 

[gprellwitz]

Even after the nose is on the squat switch, if the nose comes up enough it could possibly allow the gear to retract.

When I began flying RGs, it became a regular practice to pull the nose down and verify the squat switch would be activated.

I've never understood why they put the squat switch on the nose instead of one of the mains.

 

[KennyFlys]

I've never understood why they put the squat switch on the nose instead of one of the mains.

I've had the same question a few times. Hopefully, someone will chime in on an answer.

I'm speculating the mains take more abuse on landing so there's less potential for damage to the switch with it being on the nose. If there's a small component you don't want damaged on landing, that's one of them.

 

[TheMonk]

Why is the article even titled with the word "crash"? That's a gear up landing not a gear up crash.

Monk

 

[KennyFlys]

Why is the article even titled with the word "crash"? That's a gear up landing not a gear up crash.

Monk

I knew what had happen based on eye witness accounts. When I discovered "crash" in the first article on it I just assumed the reporter was either stupid or seeking ratings.

Today, a fellow instructor told me he was holding short when the plane "landed." They were in the middle of run-up so he didn't actually see it. The controller gave him the option of continuing to hold until the plane was moved or taxi to 17R. He chose to taxi. The runway was shutdown for over two hours.

Back in Conroe, a Meridian landed hard on the nose and it collapsed. I was up in a student's plane so we had to go down to Williams and wait it out for a couple hours. Actually, she got picked up by her husband. I waited longer until the runway was cleared and finally two hours later, I flew her plane back to Conroe.

 

[Erice]

No touchin' nothin' 'til the airplane has cleared the runway and stopped, and I teach it that way ab initio, even in fixed gear planes.

I was always taught to at least shut off carb heat on roll-out, since it draws unfiltered air into the carburator. Then again, I trained on grass strips. Now that I'm working on the complex endorsement, maybe I should rethink this approach?
________
BMW R65

 

[Ted]

I was always taught to at least shut off carb heat on roll-out, since it draws unfiltered air into the carburator. Then again, I trained on grass strips. Now that I'm working on the complex endorsement, maybe I should rethink this approach?

At least rethink it if you're flying in a plane with an injected engine.

Once I'm established as on the ground and rolling calmly (i.e. not rushed) I may then do flaps or something else, but not until that point. Notice I say not rushed. I think that is the main point with waiting until you are clear of the runway.

 

[d.grimm]

I talked with a mechanic that repairs a lot of gear up damage. He said at least half the time the pilot put the gear handle down after the fact. He also said they could tell this every time by looking at the gear mechanism damage.
Dave

 

[Dustin]

A squat switch can wear out. A worn out squat switch may not work properly. If the gear handle is set to retract on the ground with a bad squat switch, the gear will retract regardless of the aircraft being on the ground. IMHO I would not trust a squat switch on the ground.

 

[jsstevens]

Oh, the "typical GA pilot" was certainly capable at some point.

It's interesting that all this talk about "not touchin' nothin' until clear of the runway" sure does support the contention that Touch and Goes in retracts is an accident waiting to happen.

The flying group I belong to prohibits T&G in the retracts. This is after 3 gear up landings in 3 years - all in two Arrows. Never happend to the Lance or the Seminole (or the 172s). It makes sense to me.

John

 

[docmirror]

I'm pretty sure the squat switch on that Bo is on the main gear. I know mine is, but my plane is much older.

 

[Ted]

The flying group I belong to prohibits T&G in the retracts. This is after 3 gear up landings in 3 years - all in two Arrows. Never happend to the Lance or the Seminole (or the 172s). It makes sense to me.

I take note of the fact that it's the Arrows that have this problem.

One of the things I've observed in flying the Mooney is that I don't really fly enough right now to maintain the level of proficiency I like to have in more than one airplane. An Arrow, being a simple step up from a fixed-gear trainer, would seem to be a good candidate for someone to make a mistake in for that reason.

Just one viewpoint.

 

[gismo]

I'm pretty sure the squat switch on that Bo is on the main gear. I know mine is, but my plane is much older.

You are correct. Most have a switch on only one side but some have one on each side.

BTW the reason that single engine Cessna retracts put the squat switch on the nose is because they use a springy gear leg for the mains and there's no practical way to put a squat switch on that.

 

[KennyFlys]

You are correct. Most have a switch on only one side but some have one on each side.

BTW the reason that single engine Cessna retracts put the squat switch on the nose is because they use a springy gear leg for the mains and there's no practical way to put a squat switch on that.

Thanks Lance. I had never even considered the design preventing placement of the switch.

 

[SkyHog]

I don't get the argument that retracting flaps is a bad idea. I don't but into any benefit, but how the hell do you accidentally retract gear in an Arrow? You have to grab the gear level, pull it out, and slide it up, vs either pulling a bar up or flipping a switch up for flaps.

And thats about how every complex I've seen works. Is there a plane out there with a simple lever for both?

 

[SCCutler]

Nick, the Bonanza has two switches for flaps and gear; and while the gear switch is shaped like a wheel and the flap switch is shaped like a... ummm... flap, they are both in the same row of switches, and are nothing close to being different enough for me to want to jack with either while on the roll.

I turn off of the runway, clear the hold-short line, stop and then I look at the flap switch, and i say, "Flaps. Flap switch identified. Flaps up." while reading the word, "Flaps" at the switch. Then and only then do the flaps get retracted.

I have never landed anywhere that I needed the traction badly enough for the flap position to make a difference. Can't say I never will, but odds are I won't (I rarely need the brakes).

If I had a Cherokee, with the big flap bar, it might be different, but until I do, my way works jest fine for me.

 

[Skip Miller]

I don't but into any benefit, but how the hell do you accidentally retract gear in an Arrow? You have to grab the gear level, pull it out, and slide it up, vs either pulling a bar up or flipping a switch up for flaps.

Unfortunately, it is pretty easy, Nick (and no, thankfully I am not talking from experience!!). You are almost by definition in a distracting environment, as your primary job remains "fly the plane!". If you make the mistake of grabbing the wrong switch, your "muscle memory" takes over and you pull - slide the wheel switch/lever automatically. You aren't thinking - don't have time to think - whoa! this is the wrong switch. It's all over in a flash. They are up, you are down, and your insurance agent is grumpy.

-Skip

 

[poadeleted20]

One thing to consider is that the gear and flap controls are reversed on a lot of aircraft, such as Aztecs versus Cougars, and even on different model years of the same aircraft (like early vs later Barons). Way too easy to get the wrong one if you're not really thinking about it and flew the other one a lot.

 

[dmccormack]

Few easier to confuse than the Piano Keys in the old Bonanzas:

 

[mikea]

Nick, the Bonanza has two switches for flaps and gear; and while the gear switch is shaped like a wheel and the flap switch is shaped like a... ummm... flap, they are both in the same row of switches, and are nothing close to being different enough for me to want to jack with either while on the roll.

I turn off of the runway, clear the hold-short line, stop and then I look at the flap switch, and i say, "Flaps. Flap switch identified. Flaps up." while reading the word, "Flaps" at the switch. Then and only then do the flaps get retracted.

I have never landed anywhere that I needed the traction badly enough for the flap position to make a difference. Can't say I never will, but odds are I won't (I rarely need the brakes).

If I had a Cherokee, with the big flap bar, it might be different, but until I do, my way works jest fine for me.

Unfortunately, it is pretty easy, Nick (and no, thankfully I am not talking from experience!!). You are almost by definition in a distracting environment, as your primary job remains "fly the plane!". If you make the mistake of grabbing the wrong switch, your "muscle memory" takes over and you pull - slide the wheel switch/lever automatically. You aren't thinking - don't have time to think - whoa! this is the wrong switch. It's all over in a flash. They are up, you are down, and your insurance agent is grumpy.

-Skip

And aren't the two (three with mixture) levers on Beeches reversed left to right on different models, just to make it interesting?

 

[gismo]

And aren't the two (three with mixture) levers on Beeches reversed left to right on different models, just to make it interesting?

The pre-1984 Barons plus the Travel Air and Twin Bonanza (King Air predecessor) that are the most recent ancestors of the Baron all had the throttles in the center with props to the left and mixtures to the right. This was simply following the convention of bigger twins of that era which arranged things so the pilot and copilot could have equal access to the throttles. In 1984/5 Beech redesigned the entire panel for the model 36 Bonanza and reflected that change in the B58 Baron. This included separate control columns for the two wheels that replaced the original throwover center yoke and at the same time they swapped the gear and flap selectors in the Bonanza and Baron in addition to rearranging the engine controls, putting the throttles to the left side.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Okay, I'll fess up. I too was taught both not to touch the flap before clear of the runway, for many of the reasons mentioned above, and that raising the flaps will decrease stopping distance. I've been going with the raise the flaps on rollout (or more usually have the copilot raise the flaps) under the reasoning that a) the flap and gear handles are significantly different on the retracts I fly; b) I could be saving some brake wear; c) I carefully confirm before lifting the lever that it is the flap and not the gear; and d) there's a squat switch to prevent raising the gear on the ground.

Grant,

If you're trying to save brake wear, wouldn't it make more sense to leave the flaps all the way down to take advantage of the extra drag? At some point I switched from raising the flaps (which takes so darn long on electric-flap Cessnas that it really doesn't do you any good anyway) to leaving them hanging and pulling the elevator back to the stop as I add brakes. I know I've gotten book short-field landing performance in a 172 at least once.

 

[CT Arrow]

As an Arrow Driver, it is almost (key word, almost) impossible to mix up flaps and gear.

My method: Flaps stay down fully on landing until I exit the runway unless it is a nasty, windy day. Then I will land, retract flaps on the roll and apply brakes.

Your mileage may vary....