ScottM
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iBazinga!
Ain't this the truth??!@!
Take this Microsoft
- Thread starter ScottM
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ghayes
Pre-Flight
LOL ... I call those "Microsoft Minutes" which means nothing in any practical sense of time telling.
wbarnhill
Final Approach
Hahaha.. yeah I've got a screenshot from years ago when I was transferring my music collection (80GB of MP3s) from one PC to another, and the time estimate jumped to something like 1.3 million minutes.
Since then I don't bother trusting time remaining estimates in software. When it's done it's done.
Since then I don't bother trusting time remaining estimates in software. When it's done it's done.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
ACT synchronization and database repair make Micro$oft look like they have perfect programmers. For Microsoft, the progress bar means something even if the time doesn't. ACT- nope- the progress bar will start over so there is no clue how long something takes.
In all fairness to MS, I can see the time changing on an instantaneous basis due to connection speed changes (internet) or something else accessing the drive, but it would be nice if the spikes were averaged out.
In all fairness to MS, I can see the time changing on an instantaneous basis due to connection speed changes (internet) or something else accessing the drive, but it would be nice if the spikes were averaged out.
ghayes
Pre-Flight
I would agree with all that. I have my share of software installs where the progress bar indicates the time of each individual file, not the overall install time. Or installs where I can't figure out what the progress bar is trying to show me, if there even is a progress bar!
And being a programmer myself, I gave up trying to make useful progress bars, it really is difficult to make it work right.
It's just fun to bash MS
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
I was once asked to put a progress bar in one of my applications. The conversation with the Almighty User went thusly:
Me: "That should be a pretty fast operation... Is it taking a lot of time for you?"
User: "No."
Me: "How long does it take, usually?"
User: "Maybe 5 seconds."
Me (knowing that's on the high end, but whatever): "Has it ever taken longer than that?"
User: "No."
Me: "But you want a progress bar to... Tell you how much time is left? Or... ?"
User: "I think it would look pretty."
Me: "Um... Okay."
So, I threw one in there, updated it on a 10-second timer... Would loop back to 0 if it ever needed to (though it never did.)
User loved it.
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
I was once asked to put a progress bar in one of my applications. The conversation with the Almighty User went thusly:
Me: "That should be a pretty fast operation... Is it taking a lot of time for you?"
User: "No."
Me: "How long does it take, usually?"
User: "Maybe 5 seconds."
Me (knowing that's on the high end, but whatever): "Has it ever taken longer than that?"
User: "No."
Me: "But you want a progress bar to... Tell you how much time is left? Or... ?"
User: "I think it would look pretty."
Me: "Um... Okay."
So, I threw one in there, updated it on a 10-second timer... Would loop back to 0 if it ever needed to (though it never did.)
User loved it.
I'm trying to think of a single "progress bar" I've ever done or required since 1988 that ever had any link to reality...
Hang on...
I'm thinking....
(Keep posting -- I'll get back to this...)
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
I can only think of one, and it was a long, long time ago... It was in an app that applied changes en masse to Active Directory accounts. Query to get a collection of accounts --> apply whatever change to the account --> next.
Some machine-local, iterative operation against a collection of a known size makes it pretty easy and useful. But most of the time, you're right, it's neither one of those two things.
dmccormack
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Yeah... you can apply some metric... but often it is disconnected from what the user wants/sees.
As a user, I want to know "How long until X is complete?"
Meanwhile the program divided the number of files by 60....
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
Yeah, true, I didn't ever include an ETA. Nor can I really envision a scenario in which I would, unless it's a specifically time-related operation.
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
"Roxio Media Manager" just provided the following dialog:
"Time remaining: 0 Seconds"
That was 4 minutes ago...
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
Yeah. Sigh...
jtheune
Ejection Handle Pulled
I worked with a app back in my Vax 11/750 days doing synthetic image generation work for mission planning and some of the other developers had developed a progress notification system for a terminal. It consisted of a series of messages that started out with Juan Valdez is climbing the mountain.. and detailed the steps in creating a cup of coffee. The process being monitored would take 10 minutes or so to complete. Most everyone loved it but a high ranking officer came in and had a hissy fit so a new set of messages was built that gave the information in terms on minuetes but there was a command line option to the program to use the old messages instead.
Code:
ftp host@domain.com
cd <path>
ls
bin
[b]hash[/b]
get <bigfile>
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Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Working with a known number or file size, it should work. I just showed progress to 100% complete. If it doesn't know how long something will take, it should just run an animation so I know the program hasn't hung.
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jsstevens
I worked on DOS based network backup software back in the late '80s and early '90s. I inheirited a package which created a themometer bar and an estimate of time to complete down to the second. On a local disk it wasn't bad, but on a networked drive it could vary wildly. In fact, one of the test guys copied a whole bunch of files into the target area while it was running and wrote up a defect on the thermometer bar going over 100%.
After a while, I sold the marketing powers that be on the idea: "The user wants to know if they have time to 1) get a cup of coffee, 2) go to lunch, 3) go home for the evening. Let's stop making up the false precision, um, stuff and give them approximate estimates in those terms." I had much happier users and much less grief from those who are picky about details. I also made up an estimate that said "Do you have any vacation time accumulated?" That one didn't ship but the test guys liked it!
John
After a while, I sold the marketing powers that be on the idea: "The user wants to know if they have time to 1) get a cup of coffee, 2) go to lunch, 3) go home for the evening. Let's stop making up the false precision, um, stuff and give them approximate estimates in those terms." I had much happier users and much less grief from those who are picky about details. I also made up an estimate that said "Do you have any vacation time accumulated?" That one didn't ship but the test guys liked it!
John
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
Psh...progress bars.
The closest I've ever come to requiring a progress bar was something to test to see if the program had frozen. It went like this:
| / - \ | / - \ |
Makes it look like its spinning. Every loop would update the character shown. Good stuff.
The closest I've ever come to requiring a progress bar was something to test to see if the program had frozen. It went like this:
| / - \ | / - \ |
Makes it look like its spinning. Every loop would update the character shown. Good stuff.
Nick:
Back when I still had enough loose brain cells to code, I used that method (as well as the "pulsating Os" (O0o.o0O)) as an easy "is it still iterating or is it dead" check.
Now, programmers use Flash to start a spinning-daisy thingie which tells you less than nothing about what is actually happening.
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ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
Really whatever the display mechanism is -- text, progress bar, some Flash thingy, whatever -- it should indicate that whatever long-running process is still actually, er, running and should indicate such in a thread-safe manner. But obviously, the real goal should be to properly manage the life of the operation and appropriately handle exceptions so as to avoid a "hanging" sort of scenario in the first place; especially in an entirely local (i.e. no network) application, employing proper asynchronous methodologies should never result in an "it's sitting there doing nothing" scenario or an unhandled "timeout" making it to the user.
Obviously my "Screw it, here's your meaningless progress bar" thing above doesn't really do that, but then I was comfortable enough with all aspects of the "long" running operation to not really care too much.
Me too. You left out the CHR$(13) in between each to move the cursor back.
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TknoFlyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
Reminds me of a license plate I saw on a sports car a while back:
MYCHR27
I thought it was funny. What's not is how few of my developer cohorts don't get it. Maybe it's a sign I've been in the game too long...
It surely can't be a sign of just how much of a geek I am.
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
Maverick
Line Up and Wait
Reminds me of a license plate I saw on a sports car a while back:
MYCHR27
I thought it was funny. What's not is how few of my developer cohorts don't get it. Maybe it's a sign I've been in the game too long...
It surely can't be a sign of just how much of a geek I am.
< Pathetic geek story >
When I took programming classes at city college, we had a shared directory for our assignments. Of course, the mouth breathers in my class knew exactly & barely enough to copy the other guy's code and turn it in. I was having fun hacking because the assignments were trivial to me so I'd keep hacking after I had it working in a run or two.
I embedded 50 or so CHR$(7) in the header of my code. In COBOL in the SECURITY section.
Yes. BEL. I created an ASCII burglar alarm.
I'd sit in the lab and hear the beeping and turn to see the goof looking around wondering in a panic how he could turn off the noise.
< \ Pathetic geek story>
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Windows has help files? They are almost useless anymore- look up a task to get started on how to use it, and you get all the advanced stuff about how to tweak it. We moved to MS office 2007 at work and they rearranged all the buttons and menus- so back to the learning curve.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
"anymore" when were they ever useful?
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Back in 16 bit windows from Win 3.1 through Win 98 (but not Windows Me). I actually could find the information I needed.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
I used a little of MS DOS, also some AT&T DOS, HP-DOS, then went MAC. All the while still using VMS on another more useful machine. I came back to Windows in the Win95 time frame and never got any help from the MS help files. If I could not figure something out on my own it was far easier to find someone who did already figure it out and ask them.
You are Doooooomed!
What other company has the gonads and customer focus to make the first entry of the FAQ: NO!!! YOU CANNOT REMOVE THE RIBBON! It takes up so much of my screen I can't get to useful spots like the tabs and controls on a spreadsheet.
Try working at a company where we're all equal except only your coworkers can have large monitors, so every spreadhseet you have to use won't fit on your screen. I have to stand on my head and click and drag for 5 minutes to resize them.
The current help files are useful after a half dozens clicks or so, only because it goes off to the web for real current info. I can find redundant and close information on microsoft.com with some varying amounts of time doing dedicated research.
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Sorry for you.
TknoFlyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I suppose there is a difference between removing and hiding, but you can minimize the ribbon to what effectively becomes a menu bar.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm stuck with Lotus Notes in the office. You think MS is bad??????
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
<ahem>
Gaah... Sorry about that. It's a refl--
<cough>
It's a reflex every time I hear the words Lotus N...
... Lotus No... <gulp> Lotus Notes. Phew.
I suppose there is a difference between removing and hiding, but you can minimize the ribbon to what effectively becomes a menu bar.
Tell me! Puh leeze!
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
<ahem>
Gaah... Sorry about that. It's a refl--
<cough>
It's a reflex every time I hear the words Lotus N...
And to think you ridiculed my complaints about our IT group...
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
And to think you ridiculed my complaints about our IT group...
It all makes sense now... Because that's not professional incompetence. That's bordering on assault.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
It all makes sense now... Because that's not professional incompetence. That's bordering on assault.
And to top it off, the intranet portal is driven by the SAP system.
Somebody made/is making a LOT of money off of this.
ReverendSlappy
Ejection Handle Pulled
And to top it off, the intranet portal is driven by the SAP system.
Somebody made/is making a LOT of money off of this.
Hmm... I'd reply with more, but the left half of my body just suddenly went numb. Dunno what that's all about.