Taiwan twin engine crash. Did one engine flameout or two?

FastEddieB said:
I find name calling at this point childish and grossly inappropriate.
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You are right and I apologize.

They are incompetent though if this is true and if I knew someone who had died on that plane I would reserve the right to call them names.
 
narchee said:
You are right and I apologize.

They are incompetent though if this is true and if I knew someone who had died on that plane I would reserve the right to call them names.
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We don't know that.

Any one of us is capable, under stress, of "screwing the pooch".

Happened even to astronauts.

And well trained professional pilots.

There but for the grace of God...
 
I wouldn't rely too much on what CNN says - unless they are repeating a report from a reliable source.
 
narchee said:
You are right and I apologize.

They are incompetent though if this is true and if I knew someone who had died on that plane I would reserve the right to call them names.
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Even the best of us are not immune from making mistakes.

The bigger question is: What was their training/company SOPs like? Specifically their CRM training.

Did they have an identify/verify process for engine failure or does the non-flying pilot just run through the checklist?

Why were they shutting off fuel to the engine? Why not simply feather the bad and deal with the shutdown once at a safe altitude?

Lots more questions to be answered to really understand what was going on in that cockpit.
 
Matthew said:
I wouldn't rely too much on what CNN says - unless they are repeating a report from a reliable source.
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The data is pretty clear (released by multiple news sources now) - they shut down the wrong engine and the airplane was on the verge of stalling/departing controlled flight all the way to the bridge.

It has happened many times before and will happen again. In order to learn from this one, we need to understand why they shut down the wrong engine.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The data is pretty clear (released by multiple news sources now) - they shut down the wrong engine and the airplane was on the verge of stalling/departing controlled flight all the way to the bridge.

It has happened many times before and will happen again. In order to learn from this one, we need to understand why they shut down the wrong engine.
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I've seen the FDR info now, too.
 
dans2992 said:
There was an article "life after V1", which advocated (in piston singles) to takeoff something like this:

1. Right hand on throttles, accelerate to Vr, rotate.
2. Positive rate, hand moves to gear lever, retract gear,
3. Hand moves from gear lever back to prop controls, ready to feather bad engine.

The argument was that with an engine failure at low altitude you do not have time to go through the "verify" step. Simply identify and feather. Setting the heading bug on runway heading would help to more quickly identify the failed engine (bug moves toward running engine). The ball can swing around in turbulence and make the "identify" step take longer.

What do you guys think about this technique?
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I've been using it for thirty years. There is a drill that goes with it you can practice at your desk or sitting anywhere. Take your left foot and tap down while rolling your hand to the right, switch to the right foot and roll your hand to the left. Just keep going back and forth.
 
Dead foot, dead engine. Of course, that works better in twins with no automatic yaw dampening going on.
 
dBrad said:
Dead foot, dead engine. Of course, that works better in twins with no automatic yaw dampening going on.
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That works, unless it is a high horsepower, flat rated, turboprop that has just gone to full overtorque. Then it's "dead foot, good engine!"
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is what happens when you rush things and go off the reservation of OEI training...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...light-data-suggests-wrong-engine-shut-408774/

It was the right engine that 'flamed out'.....they killed the fuel to the left.
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Right hand engine goes out. Less than 60 seconds later, pull fuel for left hand engine, shutting it down. Immediately afterwards, report a flame out. Attempt restart, stall.

Could it be as basic as accidentally pulling the wrong fuel shutoff?
 
bflynn said:
Could it be as basic as accidentally pulling the wrong fuel shutoff?
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Yes, but then the question would be "why are you pulling the fuel shutoff for an engine failure in that phase of flight?"

Granted, I am neither a turboprop guy or 121, but all of my training in pistons and several turboprop guys I know seem to say you don't mess with fuel shutoffs until well above 1000' AGL.

Engine failure on the initial climb is all about clean up and fly the OEI profile. Once at a safe altitude, THEN you go through the follow on checklist and either secure the engine or attempt restart.
 
dans2992 said:
There was an article "life after V1", which advocated (in piston singles) to takeoff something like this:

1. Right hand on throttles, accelerate to Vr, rotate.
2. Positive rate, hand moves to gear lever, retract gear,
3. Hand moves from gear lever back to prop controls, ready to feather bad engine.

The argument was that with an engine failure at low altitude you do not have time to go through the "verify" step. Simply identify and feather. Setting the heading bug on runway heading would help to more quickly identify the failed engine (bug moves toward running engine). The ball can swing around in turbulence and make the "identify" step take longer.

What do you guys think about this technique?
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Make up your mind....single or twin?

Applied to twins, this "technique" skips over the "identify" step in the process. It comes before Verify. Right hand should be on the throttles, ready to retard the one toward which the plane is yawing (or "dead foot, dead engine").

Leave the ball out of the discussion; your body provides all the clues you need.

Bob Gardner
 
Fearless Tower said:
It has happened many times before and will happen again.
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True. Based on the account given in the book "Unbroken," this is how Louis Zamperini and the rest of the crew of The Green Hornet ended up in the Pacific Ocean in WWII.

That particular B-24 was described as sketchy to begin with and may have crashed even with the correct engine shut down. But it certainly hastened their fate when a crew member killed the wrong engine at low altitude.
 
bobmrg said:
Make up your mind....single or twin?



Applied to twins, this "technique" skips over the "identify" step in the process. It comes before Verify. Right hand should be on the throttles, ready to retard the one toward which the plane is yawing (or "dead foot, dead engine").



Leave the ball out of the discussion; your body provides all the clues you need.



Bob Gardner
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Oops, yes I meant "piston twins".

I had a partial engine failure once where on was surging. It took a few seconds to determine which one had the issue.
 
So why the left roll if the right engine failed?
 
MachFly said:
So why the left roll if the right engine failed?
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Like I suggested early on, what you were seeing is NOT a VMC roll, but a stall with the left wing dropping. Obviously too low to develop into s spin.

Aggravating things and causing the left wing to drop was possibly the fact that they were restarting the left and the prop coming out of feather probably created a lot of extra drag at a very bad time.
 
bflynn said:
Right hand engine goes out. Less than 60 seconds later, pull fuel for left hand engine, shutting it down. Immediately afterwards, report a flame out. Attempt restart, stall.

Could it be as basic as accidentally pulling the wrong fuel shutoff?
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Yes, definitely. Many accidents are caused by that simple of an error.
 
bobmrg said:
Make up your mind....single or twin?

Applied to twins, this "technique" skips over the "identify" step in the process. It comes before Verify. Right hand should be on the throttles, ready to retard the one toward which the plane is yawing (or "dead foot, dead engine").

Leave the ball out of the discussion; your body provides all the clues you need.

Bob Gardner
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No, it doesn't, you identify with the prop handle. If you are pulling on the good engine you will know it quickly, restore, and go to the other. Otherwise you just continue to feather. It eliminates a point of error w transferring the had from the Identified engine handle to the prop handle which you need to reidentify as being the correct one before pulling it to feather. It shaves a full second off the procedure when getting airborne.
 
Henning said:
No, it doesn't, you identify with the prop handle. If you are pulling on the good engine you will know it quickly, restore, and go to the other. Otherwise you just continue to feather. It eliminates a point of error w transferring the had from the Identified engine handle to the prop handle which you need to reidentify as being the correct one before pulling it to feather. It shaves a full second off the procedure when getting airborne.
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No, you identify with the dead foot. You verify with the prop lever or throttle depending on how you train.

In a two person crew, you should add the additional callout of concurrence before you actually feather, but that is operator dependent.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No, you identify with the dead foot. You verify with the prop lever or throttle depending on how you train.

In a two person crew, you should add the additional callout of concurrence before you actually feather, but that is operator dependent.
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True, verify. You turn a verification procedure from two phases to one.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Like I suggested early on, what you were seeing is NOT a VMC roll, but a stall with the left wing dropping. Obviously too low to develop into s spin.

Aggravating things and causing the left wing to drop was possibly the fact that they were restarting the left and the prop coming out of feather probably created a lot of extra drag at a very bad time.
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Perhaps your right.

I disregarded a simple stall at first because the wing dropped a little too violently. I guess as you said a set of 6 unfeathered blades on that side would help achieve the results in the video.


Anyone know who is the investigating agency there, and whether or not regular people will have access to the official report?
 
MachFly said:
Perhaps your right.

I disregarded a simple stall at first because the wing dropped a little too violently. I guess as you said a set of 6 unfeathered blades on that side would help achieve the results in the video.


Anyone know who is the investigating agency there, and whether or not regular people will have access to the official report?
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Actually I thought it was a stall because the roll wasn't violent enough to be a Vmc roll.
 
Henning said:
Actually I thought it was a stall because the roll wasn't violent enough to be a Vmc roll.
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I'm not saying it was a Vmc roll, but a wing dropping that fast in a normal stall? Maybe ATRs have some weird stall characteristics.
 
MachFly said:
I'm not saying it was a Vmc roll, but a wing dropping that fast in a normal stall? Maybe ATRs have some weird stall characteristics.
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There was still asymmetric thrust going, but not enough to roll it before the wing stalled. That's why you have to do Vmc demos down low, or simulate them by limiting rudder travel, because otherwise you stall before you roll.
 
MachFly said:
I'm not saying it was a Vmc roll, but a wing dropping that fast in a normal stall? Maybe ATRs have some weird stall characteristics.
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Some airplanes will drop a wing more dramatically than others, especially if not coordinated. Some ATR guys on another board said it has a tendency to drop a wing.
 
Henning said:
There was still asymmetric thrust going, but not enough to roll it before the wing stalled. That's why you have to do Vmc demos down low, or simulate them by limiting rudder travel, because otherwise you stall before you roll.
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Okay so you're saying when it stalled the left engine was producing more drag (or less thrust) and it rolled left.

It should be the other way around though.
The way I understand what happened to him was the right engine failed (still windmilling and the blades at low AoA), he feathered the left, so now the left is producing a lot less drag. In which case the aircraft should go right.
Then if he restarted the left engine, the engine still starts from feather (like most P&Ws). Then the left engine still produces less drag than the right and the plane should go right.
Finally if he had time to restart it and get power out of it, left is producing more thrust than the right and the aircraft should still go right.

What am I missing?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Some airplanes will drop a wing more dramatically than others, especially if not coordinated. Some ATR guys on another board said it has a tendency to drop a wing.
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That's probably the only explanation. I'm just surprised that it can drop a wing that fast.
 
MachFly said:
Okay so you're saying when it stalled the left engine was producing more drag (or less thrust) and it rolled left.

It should be the other way around though.
The way I understand what happened to him was the right engine failed (still windmilling and the blades at low AoA), he feathered the left, so now the left is producing a lot less drag. In which case the aircraft should go right.
Then if he restarted the left engine, the engine still starts from feather (like most P&Ws). Then the left engine still produces less drag than the right and the plane should go right.
Finally if he had time to restart it and get power out of it, left is producing more thrust than the right and the aircraft should still go right.

What am I missing?
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The rudder.
 
MachFly said:
Okay so you're saying when it stalled the left engine was producing more drag (or less thrust) and it rolled left.



It should be the other way around though.

The way I understand what happened to him was the right engine failed (still windmilling and the blades at low AoA), he feathered the left, so now the left is producing a lot less drag. In which case the aircraft should go right.

Then if he restarted the left engine, the engine still starts from feather (like most P&Ws). Then the left engine still produces less drag than the right and the plane should go right.

Finally if he had time to restart it and get power out of it, left is producing more thrust than the right and the aircraft should still go right.



What am I missing?
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The right engine auto feathered.
 
Henning said:
The rudder.
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So he stalls with a lot of left rudder that he was using to counteract the drag from the right engine... Actually that makes sense, and explains why it rolled that fast.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The right engine auto feathered.
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Do we know that? Here's why I ask, and it links to my buddy's final flight in the Am Eagle Jetstream crash at RDU. That plane had 2 running engines, it had a "Engine Restart" light on, but the engine had already restarted, it's just that the light stays on until you recycle the SRL computer. The Captain pulled back on perfectly performing engine, stood on the wrong rudder and the last thing on the CVR is Matt's voice shouting "Wrong Foot, Wrong Foot!" Both engines were making power fine when it crashed.
 
Henning said:
Do we know that? Here's why I ask, and it links to my buddy's final flight in the Am Eagle Jetstream crash at RDU. That plane had 2 running engines, it had a "Engine Restart" light on, but the engine had already restarted, it's just that the light stays on until you recycle the SRL computer. The Captain pulled back on perfectly performing engine, stood on the wrong rudder and the last thing on the CVR is Matt's voice shouting "Wrong Foot, Wrong Foot!" Both engines were making power fine when it crashed.
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According to what they released today, the FDR recorded a loss of thrust on the right engine followed by it going into auto-feather.
 
Some information...

http://www.asc.gov.tw/main_en/docDetail.aspx?uid=318&pid=318&docid=669
GE235 flight received take off clearance from SongShan tower at 1051:13, after took off, at 1052:33.8 ATC controller requested the crew to contact Taipei approach. After 5 seconds, (1052:38.3), master warning sounded in the cockpit associated with right engine(2) flame out procedure message on display unit. The crew called it out. At 1053:04.0 the recorded parameters indicated that the left engine power lever(1) was progressively retarded to flight idle. At 1053:24, the left engine condition lever(1) was set to fuel shutoff position resulting in left engine(1) shutdown. Between 1053:12.6 to 1053:18.8, several stall warnings sounded. Flight crew declared an emergency at 1053:34.9 and reported an engine flame out. At 1054:09.2, flight crew called several time for engine restart. At 1054:20 the recorded parameters indicates a restart of the left engine(1). At 1054:34.4, master warning sounded, 0.4 seconds later, CVR recorded unidentified sound. Both recorders stopped recording at 1054:36.
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That same website that full reports of completed investigations, so I assume it will have a report for this crash as well.
 
It'll be interesting to see the FDR data, I wonder what their AoA was when they had a flameout on the right?
 
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