Tailwheel student

[AuntPeggy]

I'm hitting the books and videos again. Tomorrow, I take my first tailwheel lesson at Danbury.

TAFs don't look good for actually getting into the air. I've mostly forgotten how to read these things, but a couple of items don't look promising for a first ride -- gusty today, low ceilings tomorrow.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]261424Z 2614/2712 25010G18KT P6SM FEW040 SCT150 BKN250 FM261900 23011G20KT P6SM SCT050 BKN200 TEMPO 2621/2701 5SM TS BKN050CB FM270200 25004KT 6SM BR VCSH BKN060 FM270500 VRB03KT 6SM BR SCT060 BKN120 FM270900 VRB03KT 6SM BR VCSH BKN050 [/FONT]

We've been looking in Barnstormer for a Light Sport airplane and two have caught my attention -- a Taylorcraft near Buffalo and a Luscombe in Tulsa. I have phoned both owners and they seem like good airplanes following a telephone call. An inspection and pre-buy would need to be arranged for either one and in both cases, it will be a hassle. My mechanic is unable to travel to Buffalo and the owner is not willing to bring the plane to him. We don't know anybody in the Tulsa area and it will be another month before we move there.

I have a good friend who is willing to teach me to fly a tailwheel, but he doesn't have one to let me learn in. That is why I phoned the school where I did most of my primary training -- to schedule some lessons with their Cub. It seems to make sense to be sure that I can make the transition before laying out so much money on a second plane.

We have a hangar on the property we will be moving to outside Tulsa. Currently, the hangar is housing the Luscombe owned by the man who sold us the house. Our Cessna won't fit in the hangar, but any LSA that we buy would fit. That Luscombe has sat in the hangar for at least 2 years with the cowling off. Hubby is thinking of making an offer on it, but it would need to be a very low offer since we don't think it will fly until after a lot of work has gone into it.

Anyway, wish me luck. Remember, I'm the one that took 200 hours to solo the first time.

 

[rottydaddy]

Good luck, and enjoy!
If you simply remember at all times that the center of mass is behind the mains, you will do just fine. And witht the Cub, just remember how little hp you will have aavailable, LOL!

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Congrats on starting tailwheel training, best type of plane outside from floats!

5k and gusty is still plenty good enough for some upper airwork.

Taylors and Lus are great planes, I'd favor the lus for x-country, outside from the I'd go Taylor.

 

[MAKG1]

5000 AGL is a low ceiling?

That forecast only goes to 8AM local tomorrow morning, but unless this is an open-cockpit tailwheel, the conditions look acceptable at the end of the forecast period. An open cockpit may be a tad unpleasant in the rain.

 

[GeorgeC]

Go to your local supermarket and practice driving a shopping cart backwards at 60mph. You'll do fine.

 

[alfadog]

Enjoy! If you already have good basic stick and rudder skills you will wonder what the big deal is; if not, then you will acquire them.

 

[X3 Skier]

Go to your local supermarket and practice driving shopping cart backwards at 60mph. You'll do fine.

While making S turns.

Cheers

 

[dell30rb]

I like to think of it as backing a trailer. Really. Its extremely similar, except for the flying part. During that part I like to think of it as flying an airplane.

 

[BiffJ]

I spent a lot of time in L2, F19 and BC12 taylorcraft planes and they are great teachers and fun to fly. Cost of operation is low due to the lack of electricity and the parts that produce it as well as the low power engine. You'll have to get used to hand propping which seems to be a bad word now days. I had to hand prop the L2 I did primary in and my BC12-65 as well. Its not so bad if you're careful and attentive. I like the T-Carts.
The Luscombe is another great plane but it has somewhat stiffer and taller gear which can be a little trickier to handle at first but with some time and practice you won't notice any difference. Once again you'll find that most(many?) luscombes have no starter and or generator so hand propping again. Some of the later units or upgrades will have 85 or 90 HP Continentals with starters and generators. Adding that feature to the situation won't necessarily be a good thing though if you need the capacity. Adding the electrical stuff will add to the cost of annuals, decrease your useful load and increase the amount of fuel you use (mostly because you're using more HP).
One other little feature we find in these selections is that they spin much easier and stalls feel much different than any cherokee or other trigear piper out there. On the other hand they unspin (recover) just as quick and stalls while a bit harsher are quick to recover too. All this is just something you need to learn to deal with and it will make you a better pilot in any plane you fly. Paying attention to coordination with the rudder is more difficult with the tailwheelers but time and practice will make it second nature. My 41 taylorcraft was a very good demo plane for adverse yaw. I'd have my passenger try to "steer" us around with the wheel alone and watch the shock on their face as the plane banked one way and turned the other.
Either one you choose is a good one and you just need to realize its going to take time and practice to make it go well.

Frank

 

[Dr. O]

let me put in a good word for the T-Craft. I owned a BC12D for several hundred hours and I have Luscombe time and others. of course that was a couple of lifetimes ago.
the t-cart is a sweetheart to fly and one of the easiest conventional gear planes to land. it ranks up there with the 108-3 Stationwagon as a kiddy car as far as handling on the ground. it gets my vote for a first tail wheel plane to own.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

let me put in a good word for the T-Craft. I owned a BC12D for several hundred hours and I have Luscombe time and others. of course that was a couple of lifetimes ago.
the t-cart is a sweetheart to fly and one of the easiest conventional gear planes to land. it ranks up there with the 108-3 Stationwagon as a kiddy car as far as handling on the ground. it gets my vote for a first tail wheel plane to own.

-3? small tail FTW :wink2:

 

[CRAZEDpilot]

Funny, no one congratulated you on buying a home with a hangar and airstrip! That's the rare part of this equation, and very valuable! You lucky kids you!!!!

 

[AuntPeggy]

I took that first tailwheel lesson this morning. I arrived about an hour early for my 10:00 lesson and Tony was waiting on the sofa in the FBO. We sorta recognized each other from ten years ago when he was teaching at the school where I had some training. We got to know each other better as I told him about the house we bought in Oklahoma and the training I've had. We went into the hangar where he told me, "We have a new line boy pulling the Cub out of the hangar and he isn't allowed to do anything, like touch an airplane, without supervision yet." So, the instructor attached the towbar and wing walked a Bonanza and a Cessna out of the hangar. Meantime, I'm looking for a bright yellow little Cub and not finding it. Then, finally, on a lift near the ceiling, a little plane was visible, wearing military markings and green and black camoflage paint. It had been hiding among the rafters all the time.

After a quick preflight, "Don't sweat the details," Tony said, "Just get in and get the feel of her. We'll have a real lesson on preflight after you know if you like the Cub." The first challenge was figuring out how to get into the back of the Cub without doing damage to it or me. I noticed that the black marking on the wing strut that I thought was "wing walk" paint was actually a sticker saying "No Step." Ok, don't use the strut to get in. But there are a lot of pipes or tubes that can be grabbed to launch this aging body into place, so it was no real big deal.

As expected, the ceiling was too low for much in the way of flying. Tony asked tower for Special VFR for pattern work since the airport was under instrument conditions. We allowed a departing IFR flight to go ahead of us so that he wouldn't be inconvenienced. I used the time to get the feel of the rudder pedals by pushing first one, then the other all the way to the stops. I pushed back and forth with my toes, resting my heels on the floor, when suddenly my shoe went under the bar and then pulled off of my foot. I jammed my foot back into the shoe, glad that it had happened on the ground instead of in the air and then vowed to use my whole foot, not just toes to work the rudder.

When the other flight's clearance was delayed, our little Cub nearly leapt with joy as we cut across the grass to Runway 8. Tony did the first circuit, telling me to pay attention to the stick and rudder inputs. That's what I tried to do, but must admit that the joy of having the wind in my hair and looking down and around at the world was more compelling. We came to a near stop on the runway, and it was my turn to take off. Push throttle forward, push stick forward, keep on the centerline with rudder, pull back on the stick and we were flying all over the sky before I knew it.

Suddenly, tower wanted us to land on the crossing runway because the IFR flight had just got his clearance. By regulation, they cannot handle both IFR and SVFR simultaneously, so we had to get down in order for the other flight to take off. Tony wheeled that baby right around, like the outline of one petal from a cloverleaf and set us down on Runway 17. I want to be able to do that.

As soon as the IFR flight was off, we taxied back to Runway 8 and I did a few more circuits. As usual, I can remember to do one thing at a time. Tony kept reminding me to push or pull the stick and to make turns at the correct time. One thing I noticed is that my internal timing clock is set to 180 horsepower, not 85. I was ready to level off from takeoff climb long before the airplane had climbed high enough. Crosswind and downwind legs were taking about twice as long as I anticipated and I haven't quite figured out what was going on while turning, although Tony assured me that my turns were coordinated. I could not see out the front of the airplane at all. Tony and I both forgot that I would need a cushion, so the only view I had was out the left window, out the open right door and Tony's broad shoulders and bright blue T-shirt to the front.

By the time I was able to actually remember the sequence of pushing in the throttle and pushing the stick forward, then back for takeoff and I was feeling proud of myself, the clouds lifted and we were able to fly cross-country to Candlewood. Yea! Real grass. As we followed the lake, I enjoyed seeing the sailboats in the marina. I laughed. Tony did, too. From time to time, I peeked around Tony to glimpse the altimeter (the only instrument I could see) and saw that we were a little lower than the 1500 feet I had planned, but that was keeping us out of clouds. By the time we arrived, I had completely forgotten how to land again.

The great thing about Candlewood was that I was able to get a feel for grass. Somehow my brain got mixed up and we were scurrying from side to side like a crazed sidewinder, but I pulled back the throttle and got the little beast tamed before we careened into the underbrush. A few circuits and I thought I was getting the hang of it again. We returned to Danbury and I realized it was all forgotten.

"Don't overstudy," Tony advised as he suggested reviewing the tailwheel chapter in The Flying Handbook. "Just learn the basics and then get in the plane and let it teach you how to fly it." Then we scheduled four more lessons and ran my credit card through the cube on his iPhone.

 

[tangopapa]

Awesome. Sounds fun!

Tailwheel endorsement in the Cub is the next step for me after getting my Private.

Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[X3 Skier]

Sounds a lot my very recent first flight in a Champ. And the second. And the........

Except I get to sit up front.

Cheers

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Nice write-up.

 

[RyanShort1]

Sounds like you are having fun! Keep it up, and keep the Cub straight!

Ryan

 

[AuntPeggy]

My next flight is soon (if the weather allows), so I was thinking about the problem of not seeing at all. I have put a pillow into the trunk of the car so that I will have it at the airport next time. What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

 

[wabower]

If you think getting in the back seat is difficult, you're going to love the front.

FWIW, a lot of learnin' can take place in the back seat, so my advice is to stick with it and let it sink in.

My next flight is soon (if the weather allows), so I was thinking about the problem of not seeing at all. I have put a pillow into the trunk of the car so that I will have it at the airport next time. What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

 

[dell30rb]

My next flight is soon (if the weather allows), so I was thinking about the problem of not seeing at all. I have put a pillow into the trunk of the car so that I will have it at the airport next time. What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

This is a J3 cub right? Stick with the back seat. The front is more difficult if anything. You will never be able to see over the panel, and since it is right up in your face, peripheral vision is restricted. Don't worry about seeing the panel or around the instructor. Learn to make your turn from downwind to final one constant turn with a gentle slip, so you can easily see your touchdown point out the left window. As you cross the threshold and the nose starts coming up, use peripheral vision during the flare and touchdown. Crosswind corrections are the same as a trike. Wing low and keep it aligned with rudder.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Why do they bother putting a window up front -- or instruments -- if the pilot can't see them? Seems like a waste of money.

 

[X3 Skier]

Why do they bother putting a window up front -- or instruments -- if the pilot can't see them? Seems like a waste of money.

The only instrument that really matters is the tach so you can do run up checks.

The ASI and Altimeter are interesting but since they hardly ever change indication, they are not really necessary.

Cheers

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

There are lots of side by side small taildraggers that have good visability over the nose if that is what you are looking for - Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Cessna 120/140 (not LSA), Avid Flyer and clones, etc.

By the time you get your tailwheel endorsement you should have a good idea about how much of an issue this is for you.

 

[X3 Skier]

There are lots of side by side small taildraggers that have good visability over the nose if that is what you are looking for - Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Cessna 120/140 (not LSA), Avid Flyer and clones, etc.

Add the 7AC Champ where you have reasonable viz when flying solo from the front seat.

Cheers

 

[dell30rb]

There are lots of side by side small taildraggers that have good visability over the nose if that is what you are looking for - Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Cessna 120/140 (not LSA), Avid Flyer and clones, etc.

By the time you get your tailwheel endorsement you should have a good idea about how much of an issue this is for you.

Yep, get the endorsement in the cub and then see how you feel. A 120/140 with side by side and good instruments can make a decent xc plane.

The cub is all stick and rudder. Its not an instruments and cross country plane. I don't take many passengers in the cub unless they are aviation enthusiasts who will appreciate the experience.

I occasionally tough out a cross country in the cub solo, but i'm an aviation nut who appreciates the experience

 

[RyanShort1]

My next flight is soon (if the weather allows), so I was thinking about the problem of not seeing at all. I have put a pillow into the trunk of the car so that I will have it at the airport next time. What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

Fly the back seat. It really is the best. I fly a LOT of front seat in the Cub because I'm instructing in it, but whenever I fly it for myself, I'm in the back seat.

Ryan

 

[lr60plt]

What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

I'm actually going to suggest you do ask to switch seats. You've made several posts about your concern for visibility...if you have no plans to rent the plane solo and all you are trying to do is get your tailwheel endorsement, then go ahead and ask to sit in the front. While your forward visibility will not really improve, you will get rid of the distraction of sitting behind someone and not being able to see the instruments easily. This will allow you to concentrate on what you are there to do.

You can always transition to the backseat later if you want to solo one or take friends for flights. Most other taildraggers you will fly are flown from the front anyway.

-Tailwheel CFI

 

[yakdriver]

I'm actually going to suggest you do ask to switch seats. You've made several posts about your concern for visibility...if you have no plans to rent the plane solo and all you are trying to do is get your tailwheel endorsement, then go ahead and ask to sit in the front. While your forward visibility will not really improve, you will get rid of the distraction of sitting behind someone and not being able to see the instruments easily. This will allow you to concentrate on what you are there to do.

You can always transition to the backseat later if you want to solo one or take friends for flights. Most other taildraggers you will fly are flown from the front anyway.

-Tailwheel CFI

I completely disagree. That's why the J3 is such a good trainer as it gets you using your peripheral vision to gauge height and drift. That will transfer over to ant airplane you will fly. Also flying by feel instead of staring at the instruments is a bonus. The Cub will teach you stick and rudder skills better than almost any other airplane. Stick with it as thousands of pilots learned in a Cub.
As an aside I took Dick Fleisher a 94 year old P-47 ace for a flight in the N3N Sunday. He has not flown an airplane in years and when I let him fly it his stick and rudder skills were incredible. Looked like the ball was glued in the middle. He soloed in a J3 before going on to primary training. I have taken many WWII vets flying and all of them no matter how old are still great pilots. Don

 

[dell30rb]

I started in the front seat of the cub flying with whifferdill but found the back to be much easier. Because you don't have a panel right in your face at 3pt attitude (which you have no hope of ever seeing over, even in the front) its easier to learn peripheral vision from the back.

Lr60plt I would recommend someone start from the front of a citabria or decathlon (IIRC that's what you fly). The difference is that in those aircraft, you have excellent visibility over the nose. In the cub you have no hope. Unless you use a periscope.

 

[lr60plt]

I definitely see what you guys are saying and agree to a point and understand that many people have learned to fly in the back seat of a cub.

However all Im saying is that she should try the front seat. The two factors of not seeing the instruments and having someone sit in front of her could be enough to just add unnecessary factors of frustration into someone just wanting their tailwheel endorsement.

Just because it was done like that for so many years doesnt mean it has to be done that way just for a few hours when someone wants to try something new in 2013. Besides it was only the J3 that is flown from the back, once the fuel tank got moved up to the wings with the supercubs the main primary seat was the front one.

Yes I do teach mostly in a Citabria (and cubs, luscombes...whatever else is around), and I agree that flying from the back gives a better feel...but ive been doing it for a while. All im saying is that its 2013, shes not learing to fly in a j3...she just wants to fly a tailwheel for a couple hours and get an endorsement for fun and has made several posts regarding the seating position.

Its her money, why not try the front and see if she likes it?

 

[lr60plt]

I completely disagree. That's why the J3 is such a good trainer as it gets you using your peripheral vision to gauge height and drift.

You still have to use peripheral vision in the front seat.

The Cub will teach you stick and rudder skills better than almost any other airplane.

The same stick and rudder pedals exist in the front seat.

 

[RyanShort1]

I definitely see what you guys are saying and agree to a point and understand that many people have learned to fly in the back seat of a cub.

However all Im saying is that she should try the front seat. The two factors of not seeing the instruments and having someone sit in front of her could be enough to just add unnecessary factors of frustration into someone just wanting their tailwheel endorsement.

Just because it was done like that for so many years doesnt mean it has to be done that way just for a few hours when someone wants to try something new in 2013. Besides it was only the J3 that is flown from the back, once the fuel tank got moved up to the wings with the supercubs the main primary seat was the front one.

Yes I do teach mostly in a Citabria (and cubs, luscombes...whatever else is around), and I agree that flying from the back gives a better feel...but ive been doing it for a while. All im saying is that its 2013, shes not learing to fly in a j3...she just wants to fly a tailwheel for a couple hours and get an endorsement for fun and has made several posts regarding the seating position.

Its her money, why not try the front and see if she likes it?

It's true, it is her money, but I've flown a lot of folks in the Cub down here in Boerne, and have had very little improvement on results with trying exactly this with some students. And yes, I've had this same scenario more than once.

Ryan

 

[lr60plt]

At least it gives them less excuses, lol.

In the end (as you mentioned) their tailwheel progression might not actually have to do with which seat they are in, everyone gets it at different rates. I just try to make things as simple and familiar as possible when transitioning people, seeing as how damn expensive flying is these days. So if someone has concern with someone sitting in front of them or not seeing instruments...i have no problem with them in the front, even though it might not help with progression or visibility...they might just *feel better* about it, which is good enough reason for me.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

One advantage to sitting in the back is that you don't get distracted looking at the ASI waiting for "rotation speed" when you need to be focused on keeping the airplane between the runway lights. I suspect it makes it easier to unlearn some nosewheel habits.

 

[RyanShort1]

At least it gives them less excuses, lol.

In the end (as you mentioned) their tailwheel progression might not actually have to do with which seat they are in, everyone gets it at different rates. I just try to make things as simple and familiar as possible when transitioning people, seeing as how damn expensive flying is these days. So if someone has concern with someone sitting in front of them or not seeing instruments...i have no problem with them in the front, even though it might not help with progression or visibility...they might just *feel better* about it, which is good enough reason for me.

Yeah, I've done that as well - the whole "don't let them have that for an excuse" deal, and I'd do it if I needed to with a student of mine, I just don't think I'd give another person's student advice that it would help them that much. LOL. It's like giving them an excuse to blame their instructor for not putting them in the right seat.

Ryan

 

[whifferdill]

I completely disagree. That's why the J3 is such a good trainer as it gets you using your peripheral vision to gauge height and drift. That will transfer over to ant airplane you will fly. Also flying by feel instead of staring at the instruments is a bonus. The Cub will teach you stick and rudder skills better than almost any other airplane. Stick with it as thousands of pilots learned in a Cub.

+1

I started in the front seat of the cub flying with whifferdill but found the back to be much easier.

I knew I was gonna have to start folding myself up in the front once I knew you were serious. Lemme know if you wanna fly from the front some more!

 

[Luvrv8]

Is it that much differant from the front seat and back on most tail wheels. I am currently working on my tail wheel but have always been in the front seat, the weight and balance will only allow solo from the front as well so my thought is no big deal not getting to the back seat. I am learning in a PT-19.

 

[rottydaddy]

My next flight is soon (if the weather allows), so I was thinking about the problem of not seeing at all. I have put a pillow into the trunk of the car so that I will have it at the airport next time. What if I still cannot see around the instructor? I'm never going to solo in that airplane, so I'll never actually be required to fly from the back. Should I switch seats with the instructor?

As others have said, it's harder to get in that front seat, and with an instructor up front (as opposed to a passenger), if there's anything worth noticing on the panel, he will have that covered. It's very much a "feel" airplane, so once you have the CFI verify what a particular throttle setting/ airspeed/vertical speed/ coordinated turn feels, sounds and looks like (with your "seat" sense enhanced by being farther aft), you won't need the panel much. It's not impossible to sneak peeks at the fuel gauge, compass and altimeter- and maybe the ball- and that's pretty much all you'll want to look at. If you are near Vne, you won't need a gauge to show you in a Cub. Same for Vs. Vx? Vy? with two adults in a J3, you're either climbing or you're not, basically.


There's decent peripheral viewing from the back seat; with the clamsheel doors open, you get a very good view of the ground ahead without having to peer over the nose and through the prop disc. It's a wider and generally more comfy seat than the front, more legroom, aft storage is right behind you... and it's a bit farther away from the fuel tank.

So even if you never plan to solo a J3, flying well from the back- especially with someone up front- is just a fun challenge and nice change of pace, like taking on taildraggers in general. And the skills developed might serve you well in any of the side-by-side or solo-from-front-seat 2-seat taildraggers.
My two cents. I still haven't soloed a Cub, but I've sat up front and in back, and I like flying it from the back seat.
Except for getting at the carb heat...

 

[NineThreeKilo]

One advantage to sitting in the back is that you don't get distracted looking at the ASI waiting for "rotation speed" when you need to be focused on keeping the airplane between the runway lights. I suspect it makes it easier to unlearn some nosewheel habits.

What kind of peckerwood is "rotating" in a J3?

That plane will tell you well enough when it's good and ready to fly.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What kind of peckerwood is "rotating" in a J3?

Someone who was trained to be watching airspeed, oil pressure, and who knows what else while trundling down the runway. For some the panel seems to be as much of an eye magnet as cleavage.

Next time I let my buddy try to fly my LSA I'm going to cover the panel with a chart before we get on the runway to see if reduces the distraction.