Taildraggers are a handful!

GAZOO said:
Well u guys do it your stabbing the pedle way.
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I don't flap, and I don't stab unless it's really necessary. Flapping won't prevent the need to stab on occasion. It's not like slight rudder flapping makes the airplane impervious to that big wind gust that's just about to hit you.


GAZOO said:
And I could care less if i spell it right.
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It's couldn't care less. :D
 
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I put a lot of effort into flapping the rudder in a 65 Hp T-cart just to help fan it along.
 
Stewartb said:
Taildraggers have a big advantage on rough and soft fields and a huge advantage on skis.

Taildraggers are officially referred to as having conventional gear. It's the nose draggers that are unconventional. :wink2:
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Tell us how many tri gears there are in Alaska, used as bush planes compared to taildraggers. Don't mind henning and his weak example of the c-130 on skis....( one of the very few trigears easily adapted to skis due to the gear layout.) he likes so much to have the last word, even when , in many instances it's wrong. The nose wheel in back country flying is an accident waiting to happen. Well known.
 
The workhorses in the Idaho backcountry are the 206, 182 and Islander. Only a few of the charter outfits fly 185s and Super Cubs. In Alaska the airplanes operating in the bush on mostly unimproved or no strip at all are tailwheel. But most going into the little villages with some kind of strip are again 206, 207, 208 and one outfit that operates a fleet of Cherokee 6s. Don
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Tell us how many tri gears there are in Alaska, used as bush planes compared to taildraggers. Don't mind henning and his weak example of the c-130 on skis....( one of the very few trigears easily adapted to skis due to the gear layout.) he likes so much to have the last word, even when , in many instances it's wrong. The nose wheel in back country flying is an accident waiting to happen. Well known.
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Are you kidding? The U-206 is the mainstay with plenty of 207s and even 172s working. I'll go heads up against any 180 or 185 with a King Katmai 182 and smoke it for performance on anything. The most used bush plane in Australia is a Bonanza.
 
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Henning said:
Are you kidding? The U-206 is the mainstay with plenty of 207s and even 172s working. I'll go heads up against any 180 or 185 with a King Katmai 182 and smoke it for performance on anything. The most used bush plane in Australia is a Bonanza.
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Main bush plane is a U206, 207, 208, 8B, mainly for that rear door.

Not many folks flying 182s or 172s.

For real bush bush work, IE not just a dirt runway, a runway with boulders sandbars, etc, the tailwheels still rule, DHC2s some 180/5s, only issue with the 185 is loading and the narrow cabin vs. the size of the average native.
 
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Beaver has the "drum door", it is ultimate bush load hauler where you can't stick a 208.
 
Henning said:
Beaver has the "drum door", it is ultimate bush load hauler where you can't stick a 208.
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Not any more, the P&W is simply too costly to use, MY friend just retired the Beaver and up graded to the Cessna carry van. Single pilot part 135 freight dog.

Cost of fuel simply got way too much.
 
Tom-D said:
Not any more, the P&W is simply too costly to use, MY friend just retired the Beaver and up graded to the Cessna carry van. Single pilot part 135 freight dog.

Cost of fuel simply got way too much.
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There is always the turbine Super Beaver. But a Beaver with a 985 can run on MoGas, so it shouldn't be as bad as a turbine. Unless things have changed recently, 985s were pretty cheap on maint & overhaul costs, was less than a TSIO-520. The 208 is a better money maker if you can use it.
 
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They were around $40,000 not too long ago. My friend converted all his AgCats to turbine a few years ago. Don
 
I compare it more to learning a unicycle. Not many unicyclists here(or anywhere) so it's a difficult comparison. Small corrections on both lead to good results. If you have to swerve around a lot on either it's not going well.

Makes a better pilot when near the ground.
 
Just finished another training flight in the champ. Did not go well. This was my first flight in the front seat. Almost crashed on take off because things happened fast, the aircraft veered to the left and I did not respond quickly enough with LARGE enough control inputs. CFI had to take over and he somehow kept us from crashing.

He landed it and we spend the rest of the lesson simply taxiing around the airport so I could get used to ground handling.

Handling this thing reminded me of an old pick up truck I once drove. You turned the wheel and three seconds later it responded. Brakes kind of worked :)

Not sure if I am looking forward to the next flight, but I am not going to give up. I want to master this beast.
 
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Just chalk it up to a bad day, try and learn something from it and move on to the next lesson. Maybe moving up to the front seat through you off your sight picture, remember there 's less plane in your peripheral vision in the front seat as opposed to the rear.
 
I had a day like that in the Citabria. If I wasn't such a stubborn person, I would have been tempted to quit. The instructor told me to be patient and that it will just click one day.

She was right. The next lesson, my feet caught up with the plane and I felt confident for the first time in a tailwheel. What you're going through is very normal. One day soon, the light is going to come on for you. Just keep plugging at it.
 
I never thought the tail wheel was a big deal taught myself back when you could.
 
There are lots of "secrets" to tailwheel.

The big one is, practice, and concentration while you practice. I always liked to land to a full stop, pull off the runway to a safe spot and review what I just did, especially If I had my instructor behind me, and he could break things down for me.

For what it is worth, after I soloed, I faithfully did over fifty full stop landings a day until it was second nature. I missed days only when the weather did me in.

My biggest challenge, turned out to be my biggest area of improvement, and that was completely burying the stick in my lap on touchdown and using my feet only, unless I had to use the stick due to winds.

I will tell you that I never had more fun flying than when learning to fly the tailwheel.
 
I think the biggest problem today was not feeding in "more than I think I need" right rudder as I was going to full throttle.

I fed some, but evidently not NEARLY enough. The aircraft started veering severe left real quick (aided by some crosswind from the right, I think), and from there it was not pretty.
 
Florida Cracker said:
My biggest challenge, turned out to be my biggest area of improvement, and that was completely burying the stick in my lap on touchdown and using my feet only, unless I had to use the stick due to winds.
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Agreed.

If one can touch down ever-so-slightly tailwheel first just as the stick hits the rear stop, landings tend to be a lot more benign. Dance on the rudder pedals just a bit and things settle down fast.

But there seems to be a natural inclination to relax back pressure right after touchdown. To combat that when it was persistent with a given student, I would have then reach over with their left hand to "help" hold the stick against the stop - buried in one's lap as FC put it. Certainly not needed, per sé, but it seemed to help until they got the idea.

The other thing to visualize that, tail up you're fine - the rudder is effective. Tail down, you're fine - the tailwheel steers. But inbetween? There be dragons!
 
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yakdriver said:
The workhorses in the Idaho backcountry are the 206, 182 and Islander. Only a few of the charter outfits fly 185s and Super Cubs. In Alaska the airplanes operating in the bush on mostly unimproved or no strip at all are tailwheel. But most going into the little villages with some kind of strip are again 206, 207, 208 and one outfit that operates a fleet of Cherokee 6s. Don
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The operative word here is "strip". Back country, to me is not a strip but more like a sand bar, grass field, etc. a strip to me is something prepared for landings. In that case a tri gear is fine , bonanza, caravan, whatever. Try Ohio bush plane videos.....not many tri gears show up there.
 
Henning said:
There is always the turbine Super Beaver. But a Beaver with a 985 can run on MoGas, so it shouldn't be as bad as a turbine. Unless things have changed recently, 985s were pretty cheap on maint & overhaul costs, was less than a TSIO-520. The 208 is a better money maker if you can use it.
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You can't run mogas 135.
 
FastEddieB said:
Sounds backwards. Right crosswind should cause right yaw, not left.
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Hmmm. I see what you are saying. Perhaps there wasn't any crosswind at that point. I honestly don't know.

I do know that by the time we put the airplane away, there were about 10kt winds coming from the south, which would have been a crosswind from the right on the runway we were using.
 
I envy all you guys who can discuss landing this damn thing. Right now, I'd be happy to just taxi and take off competently....
 
Many thanks to Ron Dillard for sending me a great write up he uses for his TW students. Lots of good stuff in there, including:

"When taxiing a Taildragger a good technique is to keep your feet moving at all times. Think of it as being proactive instead of reactive. If you are constantly putting small alternate inputs to each rudder pedal you can feel what is happening as it happens. If you sit quietly and wait for something to happen you will be much slower to feel the need for a correction and much slower to make the required correction, maybe too late."

I sure learned this today!

Also:

"Each event in the takeoff roll, power application and the raising of the tail should be anticipated by applying right rudder just as the event takes place, do not wait until the correction is needed (be proactive, not reactive). By anticipating what correction is needed, then following up with further corrections as needed the airplane can be made to track down the runway perfectly straight. Rule Number 2: Keep it straight."

Will do, next lesson!
 
RalphInCA said:
Just finished another training flight in the champ. Did not go well. This was my first flight in the front seat. Almost crashed on take off because things happened fast, the aircraft veered to the left and I did not respond quickly enough with LARGE enough control inputs. CFI had to take over and he somehow kept us from crashing.

He landed it and we spend the rest of the lesson simply taxiing around the airport so I could get used to ground handling.

Handling this thing reminded me of an old pick up truck I once drove. You turned the wheel and three seconds later it responded. Brakes kind of worked :)

Not sure if I am looking forward to the next flight, but I am not going to give up. I want to master this beast.
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Put the rudder in ahead of the throttle, anticipate, don't react, and feed throttle at a rate the tail can handle.

Either that or hold the brakes about 10° right of centerline, go full throttle, raise the tail and let go of the brakes as you step right to catch the swing on center. If the tail is already up, it doesn't swing as hard.
 
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From a fellow Aeronca pilot:
FIRST check the tire pressues. If he has he tires at 26 psi, even an experienced Aeonca pilot will complain. They should be inflated a 12 to 14 psi. That is the flight manual spec for the planes and that was with only a two ply tire, not the stiffer ones we make today. You would be totally amazed at the difference in handling between anything above 15 psi and below 15 psi. Akso make sure you are at 55 mph over the numbers. And if you have a grass strip, try that too.

Second, relax your shoulders and don't do PIOs. Properly set up the Aeronca will do just fine.

Third, what we tell everyone one the list. The first ten hours will have your total attention. Ten to 25 you start getting some confidence. About 25 hours in the seat, you'll wonder what the fuss is about. About 26 hours,you have to remind yourself that any taildragger will bite you if you don't fly it, so keep akert, ready to respond to the plane.
 
Adding to what skyking just said, gear alignment, tire pressure, and your tailwheel are huge factors in ground operations and landing.

Make sure your tailwheel is operating correctly. The cables going to it and it's breakover point should be at spec.

When I bought our skywagon, it was giving me hell until we diss-assembled the Scott tailwheel and found one broken concentric spring in it. We replaced both springs with the heavier duty part number and it made all the difference in the world.
 
docmirror said:
I compare it more to learning a unicycle. Not many unicyclists here(or anywhere) so it's a difficult comparison.
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One here, though at 61 it's not as much fun as it was when I was 18. Bones break more easily, reflexes are slower, joints are stiffer.

But the tailwheel is still no problem. Not yet.

Dan
 
One silly thing is to remember to look well down the runway. So often in the learning phase pilots concentrate too close to the nose of the plane and loose the proper sight picture on touchdown. I know I did...
 
Florida Cracker said:
One silly thing is to remember to look well down the runway. So often in the learning phase pilots concentrate too close to the nose of the plane and loose the proper sight picture on touchdown. I know I did...
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You can't look well down the runway from the backseat of a Cub much less the N3N in my avitar. I use peripheral vision glancing side to side to gauge height and drift. Don
 
yakdriver said:
You can't look well down the runway from the backseat of a Cub much less the N3N in my avitar. I use peripheral vision glancing side to side to gauge height and drift. Don
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I see the problem.:)
 
yakdriver said:
You can't look well down the runway from the backseat of a Cub much less the N3N in my avitar. I use peripheral vision glancing side to side to gauge height and drift. Don
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Depends if I'm wheeling on or three pointing. Wheelies I'm looking at the far end of the runway, 3 point I'm looking around my feet.:lol:
 
I meant to post this several days ago but forgot. This is a video where you can see the rudder movements very well. For this discussion, the first 2-3 minutes and the last couple (8:30 mark) cover the takeoff and landing.

http://youtu.be/pJdIbD739u4


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
RalphInCA said:
Many thanks to Ron Dillard for sending me a great write up he uses for his TW students. Lots of good stuff in there, including:

"When taxiing a Taildragger a good technique is to keep your feet moving at all times. Think of it as being proactive instead of reactive. If you are constantly putting small alternate inputs to each rudder pedal you can feel what is happening as it happens. If you sit quietly and wait for something to happen you will be much slower to feel the need for a correction and much slower to make the required correction, maybe too late."

I sure learned this today!

Also:

"Each event in the takeoff roll, power application and the raising of the tail should be anticipated by applying right rudder just as the event takes place, do not wait until the correction is needed (be proactive, not reactive). By anticipating what correction is needed, then following up with further corrections as needed the airplane can be made to track down the runway perfectly straight. Rule Number 2: Keep it straight."

Will do, next lesson!
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Don't be shy with your feet. I don't keep mine moving all the time, I feel what's needed and do it promptly. Keep your toes off the brakes unless needed.

Taxi away from the wind. 'Fly' away from the wind full aileron like you're banking away and down from the wind with the yoke forward and elevator down when you taxi.

Turning around, fly up and into the wind when you taxi with aileron and full up elevator. Bank full aileron into a X-wind, and use full up elevator for tailwheel authority. Try that. :wink2:
 
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Great perspective on that video!

I might suggest editing it down to a couple minutes with just the taxiing, takeoff and landing - not many people will want to sit through an almost 13 minute video to get to the "good stuff" - I know I didn't!

But thanks for posting that - its a great look at the quick and "just enough" rudder corrections needed for a tailwheel airplane.
 
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