Taildragger recommendations

Rex Kwan Do

Rex Kwan Do

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Rex Kwan Do
Hi All,

I'm a CFI with a tailwheel endorsement but not the hours I need to be able to start flying tailwheel students or flying larger tailwheel aircraft. I don't have ready access to a tailwheel (no rentals, clubs etc..) so I'm considering purchasing something flying it for a year or two and then reselling it. It's not my first choice but I'm determined to get this experience and these hours.

I own a cherokee for cross-country /IFR so this doesn't need to fulfill any other purpose than building TW hours. Slow, low and simple are perfect.

I'm 6'0" ~250lbs, would not be planning on carrying passengers or teaching in the plane.

I've looked at cubs, champs, chiefs, porterfields, 120s, 140s, pacers, stinsons etc.. what I'm missing is the experience of folks who own tail draggers and can offer some watch outs (ADs, expensive issues, landmines). I know I'm casting a broad net but hoping that folks would be willing to share their recommendations/warnings and some experience.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
I say this as a Cub owner: the front seat of a Cub just isn't big enough for a guy your size. You might fit, but you'd be miserable and the front seat is where you'd be as a CFI. Plus Cubs are a lot more expensive than comparable low and slow tube and fabric taildraggers. Of the ones on your list I'd pick the Champ. I have a bias for tandem seating. I'm your height but a good bit thinner and I still don't like side by side seating where I'm constantly pushed up against the other person. As a CFI you'd be in the back seat of the Champ which would be fine for someone your size.
 
For a larger person I’d probably be looking at Citabrias. They’re relatively inexpensive, decent performance, and have more space to move around in them than a lot of the other options.
 
Grab this book and take his advice on instructing seriously:

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot - https://a.co/d/ft4CPXJ ​

(It's an affiliate link, but takes you to the cheapest copy currently available.​

If your budget is smaller, you're probably looking at a Champ or a Cessna 120 with a good useful load or a Citabria as already mentioned. If you could afford a Cessna 170, a Stinson 108, Legend Cub, Decathlon, or something newer, there are more options. Huskys are nice, so are Super Cubs, etc...

I'm 5' 11' and about 170 and trying to get back below 160 again. If you're going to teach, get on a diet soon, because your weight will keep you from flying with most of your future customers.

I've flown a lot of those planes so if you have specific questions, shoot me an DM.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Grab this book and take his advice on instructing seriously:

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot - https://a.co/d/ft4CPXJ ​

(It's an affiliate link, but takes you to the cheapest copy currently available.​

If your budget is smaller, you're probably looking at a Champ or a Cessna 120 with a good useful load or a Citabria as already mentioned. If you could afford a Cessna 170, a Stinson 108, Legend Cub, Decathlon, or something newer, there are more options. Huskys are nice, so are Super Cubs, etc...

I'm 5' 11' and about 170 and trying to get back below 160 again. If you're going to teach, get on a diet soon, because your weight will keep you from flying with most of your future customers.

I've flown a lot of those planes so if you have specific questions, shoot me an DM.
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Thanks, I own it and read it cover to cover. It's actually part of my intended student curriculum. It's part of the reason that I'm looking for the hours. I am also going to get some paid instruction / mentoring from an established tailwheel instructor :)
 
Consider a Maule. You can get a 180HP variety at a discount because a lot of people buy them, realize they want a bigger engine, and then sell them. And, for your purposes, you don't need the bigger engine. And it's big enough for people bigger than fun-sized.
 
Rex Kwan Do said:
Thanks, I own it and read it cover to cover. It's actually part of my intended student curriculum. It's part of the reason that I'm looking for the hours. I am also going to get some paid instruction / mentoring from an established tailwheel instructor :)
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Do what you can to get time in the different common types of landing gear available, too. Try to get at least 10 hours of landings each in spring steel, bungee, oleo, etc... and get familiar with how they differ. It can be quite fun jumping between them.
 
Rex Kwan Do said:
I'm 6'0" ~250lbs, would not be planning on carrying passengers or teaching in the plane.
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In that case, don't rule out experimentals; purchase and maintenance costs can be a lot less, especially if you have some mechanical skill and the willingness to work on your own plane. Though a lot of them are just as cramped as the classic taildraggers, some are not.
 
Dana said:
In that case, don't rule out experimentals; purchase and maintenance costs can be a lot less, especially if you have some mechanical skill and the willingness to work on your own plane. Though a lot of them are just as cramped as the classic taildraggers, some are not.
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any recomendations of models to look at?
 
About 30 years of TW experience. Average-ish sized myself at 5'10" and 170#. At your height and weight, I wouldn't bother with any of the lower powered tandem aircraft, including Champs, Cubs not Super, 120/140, Porterfield or Taylorcraft. The 150 hp Citabria/Cubs (7GCBC/PA18-150) will haul you around and might work, but may not be all the comfortable.

If the goal is to build time to become a TW CFI, and be reasonably comfortable doing it, I'd suggest a C170, a C180, or a ≥ 180 hp Maule. The former two can be had all metal, which is nice (early 170s do have fabric wings, but the A and on are metal). In addition, the 170 and 180 are less forgiving than the smaller tandem jobs, which will prime you for the students to come. A Stinson is a great flying airplane, but you'll need a hangar and probably want one with an O-470 conversion for the power and to not have to become a Franklin expert.

YMMV. Have flown each of the above aircraft at some point in the past FWIW.
 
Supercub. You’d fit easily. Fun airplane, very easy to sell when (if) that time comes. There’s good reason why they’re more expensive than the rest. Demand.
 
Rex Kwan Do said:
any recomendations of models to look at?
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Just Aircraft's Highlander or Superstol. Rotax power so you can run 93 car gas.

Unsure of your location but there is a definite need for transition instructors and phase 1 fly-off pilots.
 
Punkinhead said:
I say this as a Cub owner: the front seat of a Cub just isn't big enough for a guy your size. You might fit, but you'd be miserable and the front seat is where you'd be as a CFI. Plus Cubs are a lot more expensive than comparable low and slow tube and fabric taildraggers. Of the ones on your list I'd pick the Champ. I have a bias for tandem seating. I'm your height but a good bit thinner and I still don't like side by side seating where I'm constantly pushed up against the other person. As a CFI you'd be in the back seat of the Champ which would be fine for someone your size.
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I thought cubs were solo from rear seat only?
 
I also wanted a cub but ended up buying a Pietenpol with a o-200 engine at about 1/5 the cost of a cub…….
 
My list would include only airplanes with a starter. I've done plenty of hand props, including when only me there to do it. I'm done with hand propping. You asked for a recommendation, that's my recommendation. Not going to spend anytime promoting or defending it, just saying.
 
Garee said:
I also wanted a cub but ended up buying a Pietenpol with a o-200 engine at about 1/5 the cost of a cub…….
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Great airplane! I've considered one (with Corvair power) for my next build. But seriously ... 6' & 250 lbs. ain't gonna be comfortable in a Piet if he could get in it. ;)
 
I did my tailwheel training in a Cessna 170 and it's a comfortable plane, I'm 6'1" and about 220 and it's still got some room left.
Real docile thing to train in, too.
 
Stewartb said:
Supercub. You’d fit easily. Fun airplane, very easy to sell when (if) that time comes. There’s good reason why they’re more expensive than the rest. Demand.
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As a die hard PA18 guy I'd agree with everything except easily fitting in the front seat at 6' and 250 lbs. I'm 5'9" with a 31" inseam and if I were any taller I don't think I'd enjoy the airplane as much.

That's the one and only reason I recommended a Citabria over a Cub. The Citabria is a lot bigger inside but it won't perform like a Cub will.
 
J5 is the answer that you seek. A wide cub you can fly from the front. Wish I could find a good one.
 
jnmeade said:
My list would include only airplanes with a starter. I've done plenty of hand props, including when only me there to do it. I'm done with hand propping. You asked for a recommendation, that's my recommendation. Not going to spend anytime promoting or defending it, just saying.
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O-200 is electric starter…..
 
mondtster said:
As a die hard PA18 guy I'd agree with everything except easily fitting in the front seat at 6' and 250 lbs. I'm 5'9" with a 31" inseam and if I were any taller I don't think I'd enjoy the airplane as much.

That's the one and only reason I recommended a Citabria over a Cub. The Citabria is a lot bigger inside but it won't perform like a Cub will.
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At 6'2" and currently 240# with replaced hips and bad knees? Not a problem. Way easier than the -12 I used to own.
 
Stewartb said:
At 6'2" and currently 240# with replaced hips and bad knees? Not a problem. Way easier than the -12 I used to own.
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With a standard dimension cabin and seat placement?

I can tell you that I've spent some long days in Cubs and I'm ready to not be in them anymore. If the seat back leaned back a bit more and it was slid back another inch or two it would be nice.
 
Making the seat slide further back was an easy mod in my certificated Cub. I did the same thing in my Exp. I have some neighbors who are bigger guys than me and they have no problems getting in and out.
 
Stewartb said:
Making the seat slide further back was an easy mod in my certificated Cub. I did the same thing in my Exp. I have some neighbors who are bigger guys than me and they have no problems getting in and out.
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Getting in and out isn't the problem, that is easy. Bigger guys in a standard width Cub or those with an inseam of greater than about 32" may be. While I think they're superior to pretty much anything else that has been suggested in this thread so far, they're not necessarily for everyone of all sizes in a standard configuration.
 
I’m sure your opinion is more important than others. Thanks for setting us straight!
 
Rex Kwan Do said:
any recomendations of models to look at?
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Being a FAA standard size guy, I haven't paid much attention to seat size, but you might do a search on the homebuilt airplanes forum; it's been discussed there several times. That said, I know the Bearhawk is mentioned in those discussions. I knew a guy your size who comfortably flew an Avid (like an early Kitfox) solo. If you like biplanes, the Skybolt has one of the roomier cockpits, I believe, and a Hatz can generally haul anything you can squeeze into it... you wouldn't fit in mine but might in the slightly larger Hatz Classic. The thing with Experimentals is that they vary a lot within the model and builders often adjust dimensions for their own comfort.
 
I have flown most of these, Useful load is going the one of the bigger concerns. I have told a lot of new owners of Cub and champs, great we can do all you training it but we don't have any examiners small enough for you to do a checkride in it.

cubs, - mark J-3s most copies off your list you will be uncomfortable in it if you want to instruct in it, OK if you want to just fly solo and take a few light weight passengers, but you don't want to be instructing from the front, They are blind in the front and your knees will be tucked up under your arm pits.

super cubs/PA11/PA12, Could be ok, but watch the useful load

champs, Best of the light weights and a few have STC's for Gross Weight increase that might give you enough useful load if you keep them stock and don't and to much extra stuff (radios, starters, generators, etc), don't be afraid on no electrical systems, this just means less things to maintain and proper hand propping is not particularly Dangerous, if Fact I don't recall ever hearing of a hand propping injury where either a qualified pilot was at the controls or the plane was tied down, Well maybe one hand injury with a 2 cycle ultra light engine. A Glider tow hitch for hand propping can be a good idea. Best thing about the Champ, Huge Cockpit compared to the Cubs.

Citabria/Decathlon, pretty much the same as the Champs but Useful load for two people is usually an issue. A bit easier to land than the champs and cubs.

chiefs. Champ performance, smaller cockpit

porterfields, The only one on the list I haven't flown but I would guess similar to the Champ

120s, 140s, Smaller cockpits same as older 150's, but can have good useful load.

pacers, Reputation for being more challenging to land (short coupled), but would be a good time builder and we have a couple instructors around here instructing in them.

Stinsons, One of my Favorites, Franklins are smooth engines but have a reputation for somewhat frequent Cylinder Overhauls, parts for Franklin engines can be harder to come by, plus 6 cylinders to Maintain.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Garee said:
I thought cubs were solo from rear seat only?
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That's why the CFI is in the front seat and the student is in the roomier rear seat.

But to go a little off topic... it's a common misconception that J3's are solo from rear seat only. A lot of them are mistakenly placarded that way. People solo Cubs from the rear seat because it's more comfortable, not because it's required. The "rear seat only" is for certain Cubs on floats.
 
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Punkinhead said:
That's why the CFI is in the front seat and the student is in the roomier rear seat.
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J-3s have a solo pilot in the rear. Other Cubs fly from the front seat. For dual, the instructor sits in back.
 
I’m 6’6” and taught in champ, decathlon, and super cubs.

Flew j3 cubs a plenty. They were uncomfortable. Super cub was ok.

I liked Champs and their big brothers better.

Of all the pipers I’ve flown liked the pacer and the air force special super cub the most.

Most of my tail wheel time was working not teaching or fun flying. I’m sure there’s other more qualified opinions on here.
 
I believe the answer is a non Franklin Stinson.

You can pay top dollar for a built one; I have a hangar with 4-5 of them that were banner towers being sold as projects which I’ve not made a priority to sell. I have one that flew right up to Covid with an IO540 that I took the wings off of that we are about to recover and sell as a flying airplane with new paint on the aluminum and wings.

Try to find a tail Dragger that will be comfortable with higher horsepower that isn’t a radial or that is more comfortable without getting into D17S, 180/185 or 195 territory….
 
Llk said:
I believe the answer is a non Franklin Stinson.

You can pay top dollar for a built one; I have a hangar with 4-5 of them that were banner towers being sold as projects which I’ve not made a priority to sell. I have one that flew right up to Covid with an IO540 that I took the wings off of that we are about to recover and sell as a flying airplane with new paint on the aluminum and wings.

Try to find a tail Dragger that will be comfortable with higher horsepower that isn’t a radial or that is more comfortable without getting into D17S, 180/185 or 195 territory….
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Oh. Forgot about the Stinson. The voyager is a nice airplane.
 
Rex Kwan Do said:
Hi All,

I'm a CFI with a tailwheel endorsement but not the hours I need to be able to start flying tailwheel students or flying larger tailwheel aircraft. I don't have ready access to a tailwheel (no rentals, clubs etc..) so I'm considering purchasing something flying it for a year or two and then reselling it. It's not my first choice but I'm determined to get this experience and these hours.

I own a cherokee for cross-country /IFR so this doesn't need to fulfill any other purpose than building TW hours. Slow, low and simple are perfect.

I'm 6'0" ~250lbs, would not be planning on carrying passengers or teaching in the plane.

I've looked at cubs, champs, chiefs, porterfields, 120s, 140s, pacers, stinsons etc.. what I'm missing is the experience of folks who own tail draggers and can offer some watch outs (ADs, expensive issues, landmines). I know I'm casting a broad net but hoping that folks would be willing to share their recommendations/warnings and some experience.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Click to expand...
What's your budget? What's your in plan? Do you want something you can teach in once you are insurable? Do you want something you can still in 12 months? Do you want something you can keep and play around with?
 
For the OP’s mission, I vote for a Stearman
 
Just jumping in to add something I didn't see about the cubs. Of the J3's I've seen, even a light one with 65 or 85 and the 12 gallon nose tank, you're not going to be able to be below max gross with 250lbs, full fuel, and an adult passenger. I've also seen some originals that didn't have the placard for rear seat solo, might have been one with either wing tanks or a 90hp. That's also with hand propping. I'm glad I learned to hand prop, and I wouldn't mind owning one, but it would seem to me to be a PITA for instructing.

My limited knowledge says a super cub or a 180 would be great.
 
Why not a Beaver? Helio Courier? Pilatus Porter?

I own and fly a Cessna 180 and exp Supercub. I’m biased. I’ve had opportunities to buy 185s, Couriers, and Beavers. Porters are out of my budget. What I have comes from sorting. Fly enough and you’ll figure out what it is you want. In my case I never wanted a standard Cub. I built a highly modified PA-12 but let it go to a friend. My present Cub is exactly what I want because I built what I wanted. My 180 has been the family hauler for 27 years and wifey won’t let me sell it. Great Cub, great 180, incredible wife! Life is good.

I haven’t flown a nose dragger since 1993. Floats since 2010. I don’t miss either. I like tail draggers with big tires.

When somebody asks me about taildraggers? Cub, Skywagon. The kings of taildragging. If your budget doesn’t fit those? PA-20.
 
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