Tail wheel Pilots: 3 point or wheel landings?

Three point.
 
Keep in mind my tailwheel endorsement is essentially still wet...3 point.

I hear it’s very dependent on the specific taildragger being flown. My experience is isolated to a decathlon.
 
Depends.
In the Cessna 120, wheelies because they were easier. In my Merlin GT, mostly 3 point - couldn't really give you a reason why.
 
pavement: wheel landing
grass: 3 pt
 
My current plane is a three pointer although I've done wheelies in it. The kit manufacturer strongly recommends three point landings. The Champ I learned in seemed to like wheel landings but it was seriously easy to three point it on. My preference? Three pointers ... no particular reason why.
 
My tailwheel time is
Decathlon
J-3 Cubs
Pitts S1C, S1S, S1T, S2B, S2C and model 12
Skybolts
Several Christen Eagles
Staudacher D-300D
Airbike
Cessna 140
Cessna 170
Stearman
I 3 point every single time... The only plane that I wheel land sometimes is the Stearman because it likes it.
There is no reason to wheel land. 3 points always work best for me. I think I have about 2500 hours tailwheel time.
 
Depends on the conditions...
 
Be proficient at both, use both as conditions warrant. So my BFR instructor says as he makes me do both. I mostly do tail low wheel landings. They accomplish the same thing but wheelers provide more control.
 
Depends on a lot of things, particularly the airplane. I've found that some airplanes seem to be easier with one or another. Most Stearmans three point very nicely. When I'm flying my Waco, on the other hand with its narrow gear and much shorter fuselage, I just don't like to 3 point on pavement as it is unforgiving. If you have the slightest side motion when touching down on pavement, you are in for a ride. Grass is much more forgiving with 3 points.

I generally prefer wheel landings in the T6, but will occasionally do a three point. If there is a strong or gusty cross-wind I will always wheel land and then fly the tail down while standing by to go around if a I start to lose rudder effectiveness. In a 3 point, everything has to come together all at once. Wheel landings have the advantage of making the landing a multi-step process. Handle one thing at a time, BUT with a wheel landing, you always have to be prepared for loss of control if you can't handle the x-wind component as the tail comes down.

Other airplanes like the Beech 18 and DC-3 you just don't 3-point.
 
My Skywagon instructor says the only time to do a 3-point is when you botch a wheelie.

In the J-3, it was 3-point. In the 140, 3-point. In the 185, wheelies. There are exceptions to all 3 of those. The answer is: it depends on the airplane, the pilot, today's weight and balance, whether the engine is running, what are the winds, etc, etc. . . .Don't let the Internet talk you into being a zealot for one or the other. They're both appropriate at times.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
^^ That. But I am only a 14 hour tailwheel pilot.
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Nah grass/pavement doesn't change the landing consideration much unless it's so soggy that you're leaving ruts in which case unless you own the strip, you're being a jerk. Post #11 sums it up pretty well.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Other airplanes like the Beech 18 and DC-3 you just don't 3-point.
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Why is that, by the way? <training wheel pilot who aspires to fly tailwheels some day>
 
I think 3-points, in general, result in a lower landing speed, and so less energy to dissipate if something goes wrong.

But watch a short-field landing competition, and with the proper technique a wheel landing can also be quite slow and short at the same time.

In a gusty crosswind, driving the upwind wheel onto the runway feels safer than being near the stall in a 3-point.

So, I guess it depends.
 
I generally prefer to 3 point but do wheel land on occasion. The J5 I used to fly was pretty easy to wheel land. The Champ I am currently flying I struggle with them not sure why but have been working on getting better. The Chief I learned to fly tailwheel in at least at the time seemed almost impossible for me to wheel land well.

For what it is worth I am a fairly green TW pilot here as well. I have just over 100 TW hours and 405 landings. I admittedly spend a lot of time in the pattern, I like to practice landings and try to get at least three in each flight although some days I will go out and do 8 or 10.
 
There is a great feeling of satisfaction in pulling off a smooth wheel landing. I much prefer them in the Cessna 185...............but if conditions are poor it will be a 3-point.
 
About 3000 hours tailwheel, lots of tailwheel endorsements signed.
Mostly Cubs, Champs, T-Craft, C-120/140/170, Husky.
Some Cruisemaster, Callair, Pawnee, Fairchild 24, Sportsman, Highlander, Kitfox, Maule, Stinson

Generally prefer 3 points, but some seem to like wheel landing better (Stinson).
Keep in mind there a number of flavors of Wheel landings like High energy/Low Energy touchdowns (Tail High/Low), Power on/ Power off.

Cruisemaster was the easiest to wheel land, I think you could trim it up for approach and not even touch the yoke. The landing instructions in the manual only said something like "lands conventionally, other pilots will be impressed with your landings"

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
FastEddieB said:
But watch a short-field landing competition, and with the proper technique a wheel landing can also be quite slow and short at the same time.
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If you know what you are doing, you can actually apply fairly significant braking while the tail is still in the air on a wheel landing.
 
Jim K said:
Why is that, by the way? <training wheel pilot who aspires to fly tailwheels some day>
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For the Beech 18, it depends a bit on the year/model. I've been told, the early WWII Beech 18s can three point quite nicely. Sometime in the 50s they changed the angle of the horizontal stab to make it faster in cruise, but the result is it can get squirrely if you try to 3-point. Ive been told it IS possible to 3 point a late model BE-18, but best to do it on grass.

I don't know exactly why the DC-3 doesn't like 3-points. Just been told by old timers to never try. Other large tailwheels like the B-17 apparently 3 point just fine.
 
RoscoeT said:
Nah grass/pavement doesn't change the landing consideration much unless it's so soggy that you're leaving ruts in which case unless you own the strip, you're being a jerk. Post #11 sums it up pretty well.
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Grass even when not wet is more forgiving because it gives more if you side load. Tires grip better on pavement and much easier to get a swerve going on touchdown if you touch down in a slip. I learned this the hard way at Tullahoma (grass and paved runways) doing my insurance checkout in the Waco.
 
Lots of informed (and a few uninformed) comments above. I guess the only thing I'd add is to consider what you'd do in an emergency scenario for a given plane. Personally, for most of the tailwheel planes I fly, that means it's important to keep 3 points proficient, and because of the law of primacy, that's generally what I teach first, but I can usually think of a scenario I'd want to switch up, so mix in whatever you're least comfortable with from time to time to keep it sharp as a tool in your box.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Grass even when not wet is more forgiving because it gives more if you side load. Tires grip better on pavement and much easier to get a swerve going on touchdown if you touch down in a slip. I learned this the hard way at Tullahoma (grass and paved runways) doing my insurance checkout in the Waco.
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Well yeah anyone who's done any tailwheel flying at all on grass knows this, but this is still a preference thing rather than something that's really important for anyone who's competent in type.
 
FastEddieB said:
But watch a short-field landing competition, and with the proper technique a wheel landing can also be quite slow and short at the same time.
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The shortest landings are 3-pointers or tail first landings where they allow the tail to come up after touchdown for max braking. Not the same as a wheelie though.
 
3 point always preferred, unless there's a strong or gusty crosswind, in which case I prefer the extra speed I can carry in a wheel landing. I'll also sometimes do a wheelie if I need to land short but come in too fast. The shortest landing is three point followed by raising the tail and playing the stick against the brakes.

My Hatz seems to be happiest with a tailwheel first touchdown on grass, but on pavement the simultaneous 3 point works best.
 
RoscoeT said:
The shortest landings are 3-pointers or tail first landings where they allow the tail to come up after touchdown for max braking. Not the same as a wheelie though.
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Very few do three point and those who do didn't do it on purpose. The thing about contests now is these planes fly at very high AOA with power on and if they don't manage speed they scrub it by going nose high and chopping power. My Cub has been touching tail first even with extended gear and 35s. I need to get it slower and steeper to solve that problem. And I'm shopping for longer extended gear, too.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For the Beech 18, it depends a bit on the year/model. I've been told, the early WWII Beech 18s can three point quite nicely. Sometime in the 50s they changed the angle of the horizontal stab to make it faster in cruise, but the result is it can get squirrely if you try to 3-point. Ive been told it IS possible to 3 point a late model BE-18, but best to do it on grass.

I don't know exactly why the DC-3 doesn't like 3-points. Just been told by old timers to never try. Other large tailwheels like the B-17 apparently 3 point just fine.
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From what I was told by a DC-3 pilot, you can easily damage the aircraft in a 3-pt landing. As burly as the aircraft is, it has a lot of weight in the tail and not a very big wheel. Same pilot also told me the Twin Beech can be a little tricky to three point because the props blank out the vertical tail at idle and high AOA.
 
midwestpa24 said:
From what I was told by a DC-3 pilot, you can easily damage the aircraft in a 3-pt landing. As burly as the aircraft is, it has a lot of weight in the tail and not a very big wheel....
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Socal Wing of CAF has a C-46, which is considerably larger than the DC-3/C-47, and they do exclusively wheel landings in it, presumably for similar reasons.
 
I don’t think judging a stall, or even a typical increase in rate of descent while behind the power curve in a large airplane would be wise.
 
The DC3 / C47 is a big bird, once it starts to turn it does not like to stop. SO- the wheel landing gives the pilot the ability to keep the tail up for better control until the speed dissipates.
 
RoscoeT said:
The shortest landings are 3-pointers or tail first landings where they allow the tail to come up after touchdown for max braking. Not the same as a wheelie though.
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Shortest ground run.

Shortest from a fixed point is to get the mains on the point and get on the brakes - 3 feet of floating along waiting for the 3 point is 3 feet extra distance.
 
Stewartb said:
Very few do three point and those who do didn't do it on purpose. The thing about contests now is these planes fly at very high AOA with power on and if they don't manage speed they scrub it by going nose high and chopping power. My Cub has been touching tail first even with extended gear and 35s. I need to get it slower and steeper to solve that problem. And I'm shopping for longer extended gear, too.
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This is why even with the good STOL planes you ought to give some thought to occasional 3 points. You won't be doing a power on landing if the engine quits.
 
RyanShort1 said:
This is why even with the good STOL planes you ought to give some thought to occasional 3 points. You won't be doing a power on landing if the engine quits.
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Ryan brings up a very valid point. Even if your preference is wheel landings, you should still practice an occasional 3 point so you have that tool in your bag in the event of an engine out. You can do a wheel landing power off, but if you bounce and have no power, you can still recover with a 3 point, but you won’t pull off a second wheelie.
 
RoscoeT said:
Well yeah anyone who's done any tailwheel flying at all on grass knows this, but this is still a preference thing rather than something that's really important for anyone who's competent in type.
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True, and I do believe a low time pilot should have plenty of experience training on pavement
 
Fearless Tower said:
Ryan brings up a very valid point. Even if your preference is wheel landings, you should still practice an occasional 3 point so you have that tool in your bag in the event of an engine out. You can do a wheel landing power off, but if you bounce and have no power, you can still recover with a 3 point, but you won’t pull off a second wheelie.
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I learned on a shortish/narrowish paved strip. From the beginning, it was power off wheel landings, get on the brakes with the tail up, put the tail down, more brakes. In retrospect, this was a steep learning curve for me as a new t/w owner. Only later did I figure out that carrying a bit of power makes things a lot easier. Gotta find a bigger runway and practice 3 pointers on pavement...
 
Yes.
I do both.
In calm conditions, light breeze, 3 point.
In crosswind and gusty or very windy conditions, wheel landings.
Since the brakes in the Cubs are ineffective (or don't work at all) the strength of the wind down the runway determines where I put it down. and how.
But I do love to 3 point it when anyone is watching. :)
 
RyanShort1 said:
This is why even with the good STOL planes you ought to give some thought to occasional 3 points. You won't be doing a power on landing if the engine quits.
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You guys assume there's a runway under you if the engine quits. Not in my world. Trees or wet swamps dominate close to home giving way to mountains and thick forest further away. One of the reasons I have my personal STOL plane is the safety factor of hitting whatever's down there at 20 mph as opposed to 60+ in my Cessna. Emergency landings here are about controlling the crash.

In normal ops my favorite away strip is about 2' wider than my gear, is short most guys' standards, has water at one end and tall trees at the other. Not many three points are done there. The common factor with STOL comps and my strip are the requirement to hit a spot. The good STOL comp guys are accurate down to the inch on a regular basis. It's equally important for off airport operators. Two point landings are more precise, provide better control in wind, provide better visibility, and provide much better go-around response.
 
This could be a little like an oil thread or a Ford/Chevy thread.

I almost always three point grass or pavement.

The way I was taught to fly was to power off abeam the threshold. This makes me more confident for that time when I will have to land it without the option of having power.
 
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