T-38 Down, Alabama

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tobnpr

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www.militarytimes.com

T-38 Talon flight operations halted fleetwide amid crash investigation

Last week, a T-38 Talon II aircraft had a "mishap" that resulted in the ejection of two pilots in Alabama.
www.militarytimes.com www.militarytimes.com

Way past time for these airframes to be retired. The T-7A can't come online fast enough. Just 14 were finally released for production last month, a drop in the bucket...
 
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tobnpr said:
www.militarytimes.com

T-38 Talon flight operations halted fleetwide amid crash investigation

Last week, a T-38 Talon II aircraft had a "mishap" that resulted in the ejection of two pilots in Alabama.
www.militarytimes.com www.militarytimes.com

Way past time for these airframes to be retired. The T-7A can't come online fast enough. Just 14 were finally released for production last month, a drop in the bucket...
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So you're drawing a conclusion the age of the airframe caused the mishap? Seems a bit premature.
 
3393RP said:
So you're drawing a conclusion the age of the airframe caused the mishap? Seems a bit premature.
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Well...
I got the unofficial scuttlebut from my son which I will not repeat. I suspect @hindsight2020 may have heard the same.

All I'll say is that the AF grounding the fleet is indicative that they believe it needs to be examined across the fleet.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I live rent free.
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I don't know how you refined your compositional skills, but I enjoy reading and deciphering your posts. Which, I will add, often come with valid observations hidden inside, like a little prize for those who are willing to invest the effort. As for your naysayers, they, too, gain from having something more to whine about.

You should slap a bumper sticker on your car: Keep PoA Weird (although admittedly, it did not work for Austin).
 
tobnpr said:
Well...
I got the unofficial scuttlebut from my son which I will not repeat. I suspect @hindsight2020 may have heard the same.

All I'll say is that the AF grounding the fleet is indicative that they believe it needs to be examined across the fleet.
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Thanks for the additional information.
 
Roger Wilco said:
I don't know how you refined your compositional skills, but I enjoy reading and deciphering your posts. Which, I will add, often come with valid observations hidden inside, like a little prize for those who are willing to invest the effort. As for your naysayers, they, too, gain from having something more to whine about.

You should slap a bumper sticker on your car: Keep PoA Weird (although admittedly, it did not work for Austin).
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Apropos of nothing, the danger in unclear communication is not that the reader won't understand it, but that the reader won't know whether he understands it the way the writer intended.
 
Lindberg said:
Apropos of nothing, the danger in unclear communication is not that the reader won't understand it, but that the reader won't know whether he understands it the way the writer intended.
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In fairness, we are talking about banter on a free internet forum. effective communication concepts of CRM don't play here....

Like the man said - I am entertained
 
hindsight2020 said:
pfft, that's certainly the reader's burden, given what you paid to access this content....
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Lindberg does make a good point.

Based on your oeuvre, I'd guess that you post mostly to entertain yourself, and effectively communicating your viewpoints with others on the board is not a matter of concern. But hey, what do I know? I'm just here for the dancing cats.
 
Banter aside, it's very early in the investigation. As those familiar with the usaf SIB vis AIB distinctions already know, the former can bring about critical/time sensitive actions to bear, which was the case here.

Unfortunately I cannot comment about technical details publicly at this time, and public inquiries will likely get ya the "contact public affairs" boilerplate.

Though it could be found to be a conservative decision, I welcome the safety conscious approach to this decision. That hasn't always been the initial reflex on the part of these service branches in my experience. So though operationally inconvenient, I applaud the fleet wide response.

And before y'all go tar and feather the OP, remember that two things can be true at the same time. I understand the retort made about understanding causation vs correlation, that point is 100 true, but also stipulated. I just wanted to add that his statement on the life cycle of the airplane can stand on its own merit, apart from the class A.

A new IP asked me today how I do it, being the highest 38 time guy in the installation and having to rationalize 3 direct coworker/student funerals in 5 years to my loved ones. And I mean this sincerely: at this juncture, it's the seat. I do put my blind trust in that Martin Baker (remember you can't dead stick this thing) and hope it's assembled correctly after each phase inspect. I could not say the same about the old seat, even though the visibility with the new seat is atrocious. Placebo? Maybe. But the life insurance is hella low for what we're ordered to do, so that certainly ain't it. And ive long ago conceded the now decade long paycut from 121 since getting my ATP, so that ain't it either. We all have our rationalizations in this life. *knocks on wood and username checks*

As a final thought I can say this: if we re not flying by mid week next week, the issue is more serious than originally presented. Remember, pilot production is like oil production, the total flow is less important than assuring lack of flow interruption. So this is a big ticket item for the usaf even though our capitalization priorities usually code us as unimportant. Stand by for updates as we round the holiday weekend. Everybody stay safe up there.
 
I think he used AI to edit that one for prime time. Informative. But boring and intellectually unchallenging. Less signature personality. Unsatisfactory.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In fairness, we are talking about banter on a free internet forum. effective communication concepts of CRM don't play here....

Like the man said - I am entertained
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100%. In the field I'm in, there's enough change and complexity that smart people who have worked with each other for years often don't understand the subtleties of why something works a particular way even when it's explained in way that's supposed to be intentionally clear. Here on the wild west of the Internet, when people don't know each other and have wildly different backgrounds, I'd say that it's more normal than not that people think they get it when they don't. With HS, I have to slow down my processing a bit to keep up with the flow, and I find that both entertaining and informative.

Doesn't necessarily mean I'm any wiser for it compared to anyone else, but I'd rather read that than someone like me that just dumps too many sentences in a paragraph without much proofreading because I'm/we're lazy...or tired, or lack pride.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Remember, pilot production is like oil production, the total flow is less important than assuring lack of flow interruption. So this is a big ticket item for the usaf even though our capitalization priorities usually code us as unimportant. Stand by for updates as we round the holiday weekend. Everybody stay safe up there.
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Maybe considered unimportant by some, but flying past Columbus AFB one weekday afternoon this past January I was surprised by the amount of military aircraft sharing airspace with each other. I presume most of them are all a mix of AF training aircraft.

IMG_2523.PNG
 
Albany Tom said:
100%. In the field I'm in, there's enough change and complexity that smart people who have worked with each other for years often don't understand the subtleties of why something works a particular way even when it's explained in way that's supposed to be intentionally clear. Here on the wild west of the Internet, when people don't know each other and have wildly different backgrounds, I'd say that it's more normal than not that people think they get it when they don't. With HS, I have to slow down my processing a bit to keep up with the flow, and I find that both entertaining and informative.

Doesn't necessarily mean I'm any wiser for it compared to anyone else, but I'd rather read that than someone like me that just dumps too many sentences in a paragraph without much proofreading because I'm/we're lazy...or tired, or lack pride.
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Could just be a bit, too.

Edit: I hope that didn’t come across negatively. I appreciate HS’s patter. I always wonder if maybe there’s a little bit of caricature in play that allows for some inside baseball while maintaining a semblance of PII protection?
 
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luvflyin said:
How old are they? When were the last ones built?
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Entered service 1961, production ceased 1972.
Designed for structural fatigue life of 4k-7k hours, many of those remaining (500+) have over 20,000 hours.
There have obviously been multiple structural life extension programs...
 
Yep, WAY behind! The new plane… T-6A is now old and on its way out… without a replacement of course!

T-1s were brought in to relieve pressure on T-38s, they’re already gone. T-38 kinda on the ropes.

Training being phased to civilian time builders and Cessnas… an Air Force student gets about 70 hrs in one military platform with military training before earning their wings.

I dunno, they’re VERY sharp, just feel bad for them not getting everything I was afforded. 250 hrs, three military platforms and ALL military training.

They have a much tougher row to hoe, hitting the streets with so much less. Fortunately, screening seems fine and I have no doubt they’ll figure it out.
 
Tools said:
Yep, WAY behind! The new plane… T-6A is now old and on its way out… without a replacement of course!

T-1s were brought in to relieve pressure on T-38s, they’re already gone. T-38 kinda on the ropes.

Training being phased to civilian time builders and Cessnas… an Air Force student gets about 70 hrs in one military platform with military training before earning their wings.

I dunno, they’re VERY sharp, just feel bad for them not getting everything I was afforded. 250 hrs, three military platforms and ALL military training.

They have a much tougher row to hoe, hitting the streets with so much less. Fortunately, screening seems fine and I have no doubt they’ll figure it out.
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I guess there's a lot more money to spend on newer designs. They can't all be B-52's.

Back in the day AF ROTC cadets got around 20 free flight hours of screening in C-150's at the local airports to learn who didn't get airsick too much, and who was not a good candidate. There were a couple of drop outs, probably self eliminated. My instructor was just back from Viet Nam with a 100+ missions in F-105 Thuds and I was his first student ever. He enjoyed smacking me with a folded up sectional... those lessons actually worked well!
 
Tools said:
Training being phased to civilian time builders and Cessnas…
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Tools said:
They have a much tougher row to hoe, hitting the streets with so much less
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I'm told that this change from AF IFT to outsourcing to US Aviation Academy is indeed resulting in reduced skills for those entering UPT.
My fear is that, as is too often typical with outsourcing to the private sector, there may be the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.
I'm with you,hope they figure this out..
 
Tools said:
Yep, WAY behind! The new plane… T-6A is now old and on its way out… without a replacement of course!

T-1s were brought in to relieve pressure on T-38s, they’re already gone. T-38 kinda on the ropes.

Training being phased to civilian time builders and Cessnas… an Air Force student gets about 70 hrs in one military platform with military training before earning their wings.

I dunno, they’re VERY sharp, just feel bad for them not getting everything I was afforded. 250 hrs, three military platforms and ALL military training.

They have a much tougher row to hoe, hitting the streets with so much less. Fortunately, screening seems fine and I have no doubt they’ll figure it out.
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Hah, T-6 *new one* is old? That’s wild. I flew 30+ year old T-34C’s in primary. I’m gonna venture a guess you might have flown T-28s of almost that same vintage? Or at least T-2B/C’s and TA-4J’s? USAF got their T-6’s around the time i started flight school. I guess that was close to 20 yrs ago, but i digress. Maybe time just flies? Still, 20-25 yrs doesn’t strike me as old for a VT/UPT trainer.
 
Also Turbo Weenies… one was actually new, had to be one of the last, circa 1990…

I was shocked to hear the T-6 was “old”. The Navy has B models with a HUD and supposedly much better avionics.

I think the A is just fine. The biggest mistake they’re making is insisting on 141 certification and Garmin g-1000’s.

The studs are fine for what they’re trained to do, which is pass a 141 program tailored to the ACS.

They would be better prepared for what we are handing them if they flew a standard six pack. And the reduction in hours really doesn’t take into account the fact they now have to literally retrain some habits, which takes MORE time than just acquiring it the military way the first time.

The real problem is that it’s just ad hoc… it’ll settle out eventually, meanwhile these transition classes have their work cut out for them.
 
Regarding IPT and accessions, I'll give ya my real world updates on a dedicated thread, don't want to derail this one.

Back on thread topic: We're still grounded as of Tuesday (tomorrow) with the expectation of "anyday now". I can't get into the tech details, but no, the current delay is not related to any findings, as none have been released. It's programmatic/logistics related, and that's as far as I'm willing to go on here for now.
 
Rick A said:
My instructor was just back from Viet Nam with a 100+ missions in F-105 Thuds and I was his first student ever.
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Did he growl and bare his teeth when approached? That's a tough man!
 
3393RP said:
Did he growl and bare his teeth when approached? That's a tough man!
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Ha! Not on the ground. He was only scary while flying me around.

One vivid memory (of many) was introduction to power on stalls with the horn blaring... "pull pull pull NOW full left rudder". That lesson was "see what happens when you don't keep the ball centered". Yep, it's been centered when it supposed to be ever since.
 
Update:

We're back in the air as of last Friday. Inspections will be occurring concurrently with the resumption in flying, and schedule will increment up back to status quo as jet inspections are completed. Completion will not be uniform, as bases are initially told to complete checks on their own tails, and not all bases are created equal on this front.

As I suggested last week, the delay was programmatic in nature. The 2-week delay was not as a result of any inspection, as none occurred through that time. Yes, that itself wasn't well received, as the silence gave the rank and file the impression things were being inspected for days and somehow showing up bad, informing a notion that the lack of comm must mean they're trying to hide something. I won't carry water for management on that front, I don't agree with their comm habits, I find it unproductive and the "safety priviledged" canard is abused imo (aka need to know, and we decree nobody needs to know...). But that's water under the bridge at this juncture.

The components of interest have been identified, and the TCTO focuses on the assembly in question. No word yet on positives or any trend line. I have a theory of the case, but I'll withhold it until more public releasable findings come forth. If the findings do end up supporting my theory, well, folks in Mississippi are not gonna like it. But you gotta call a spade a spade in this business, or people die.
 
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